An Alternate View (to the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement

[JonC]

I believe the Bible. I don't have a "theory." Show me where we disagree from the Bible. Have you read Calvin's Letters to the Protestant martyrs of Chambery? Do so and then tell me that Calvinism is just another form of Romanism.

I never said Calvinism is just another Romanism. I said that John Calvin held Legal Humanism.

You probably hold that same philosophy. And that probaby one reason we diisagree (I believe tgat philosophy wrong). Let's find out.

What is the purpose of punishment?

You have said before that God cannot forgive men when they "repent", have "a new heart", "turns from wickedness", "die to sin", "turns to God", etc. You said that would be God forgiving people "just because He feels like it".

You also said that Christ had to suffer God's wrath because God would not be just otherwise, that He had to meet what the law demands.

So....why does God have to punish sins in order to forgive sins?

Why does the law make these demands of God?

If God can literally make us "not guilty" by making us new creations in Christ, conformed to His image, then why must God still have punished those sins?


You hold too many assumptions to simoly ignore them and run away when asked.

 

[JonC]

Of course God forgives those who trust in Christ and repent. But it is only on the basis that Christ has taken our sins upon Himself and paid the penalty for them

It's in the Biblical text as I have shown you several times.

My belief is in the Bible. You can't tell me what you think the Bible says is the purpose of punishment.

Already answered.

So do you believe that God forgives our sins or lays our dins on Christ and punishes them there?

What you have described is not forgiveness. It is punishing a substitute for sins in order to allow the sinner to escape wrath.


You have NEVER provided even one verse that states Jesus suffered God's wrath.

You did provide verses and then regurgitate what men told you the Bibke really teaches, but your belief is nowhere in God's actual words.


What is the purpose of punishment?

Why can God not forgive actual sins (why must God punish sins)?

What does the law require of God as Judge?

 

[JonC]

@Martin Marprelate

What I am asking about is how you get from "what is written" to what you believe.

You believe a lot of things about the Atonement that are not in God's Word.

So you have to had a reason for holding your theories (they are theories because they are what you think God's words teach rather than the actual text of Scripture).

Quoting verses and then saying they teach that Jesus experienced God's wrath is not quoting Scrioture stating Jesus experienced God's wrath.

So I want to know your philosophy. How you get many of those ideas you assume are correct.



What is the purpose of punishment?

Why does God have to punish the sins of a sinner in order to forgive the sinner?

What demands does the law require of God?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I never said Calvinism is just another Romanism. I said that John Calvin held Legal Humanism.

I think you'll find that you did, on this very thread, less than 24 hours ago in your post #92. Here you are!

Like I said, Calvinism is just another form of Roman Catholicism...different "popes" telling them what to believe.

Are you suffering from short-term memory loss, or are you being deceitful?

You probably hold that same philosophy. And that probaby one reason we diisagree (I believe tgat philosophy wrong). Let's find out.

What is the purpose of punishment?

You have said before that God cannot forgive men when they "repent", have "a new heart", "turns from wickedness", "die to sin", "turns to God", etc. You said that would be God forgiving people "just because He feels like it".

You also said that Christ had to suffer God's wrath because God would not be just otherwise, that He had to meet what the law demands.

So....why does God have to punish sins in order to forgive sins?

Why does the law make these demands of God?

If God can literally make us "not guilty" by making us new creations in Christ, conformed to His image, then why must God still have punished those sins?

The law makes no "demands" on God. He gave the law! And God will not deny Himself (2 Timothy 2:13). God is a just judge, and what He requires of human judges (e.g. Deut. 25:1) He also requires of Himself. Where there is a crime there must also be a punishment. Not for the first time, I refer you to Numbers 15:22ff, where people are indeed forgiven, but not without the blood of sacrifices being shed, for 'without the shedding of blood there is no remission.'

You hold too many assumptions to simoly ignore them and run away when asked.

And you don't? Go on! Tell me what the Bible says is the purpose of punishment.

 

[Zaatar71]

It is, of course, in the text - several times. You just won't accept them which is your problem, not mine. However, see below.

And I have asked you what the Bible says and you can't tell me.

It is very poor theology to demand a verse that proves something. As I have asked you before, why aren't you a Unitarian on the basis of John 14:28 or a Roman Catholic on the basis of Matthew 26:26? However, there are texts that very clearly support the fact that our Lord bore God's wrath against sin, eg. Romans 3:25-26; Isaiah 53:5-6, 10; Galatians 3:13; 1 Peter 2:26.

What do you think the Bible says is the purpose of punishment?

Because God is a just judge (Psalm 7:11). Even a human judge will not let a repentant criminal off without some punishment. However, 'God devises means so that His banished ones are not cast out.' The Lord Jesus Christ has Himself been cast out to die (Hebrews 13:12), has suffered the curse that God pronounced upon sinners (Deut. 27:26), so that God 'can be just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus.'

Another post broadcasting the truth ogf God, thanks Martin

I think you'll find that you did, on this very thread, less than 24 hours ago in your post #92. Here you are!

Are you suffering from short-term memory loss, or are you being deceitful?

The law makes no "demands" on God. He gave the law! And God will not deny Himself (2 Timothy 2:13). God is a just judge, and what He requires of human judges (e.g. Deut. 25:1) He also requires of Himself. Where there is a crime there must also be a punishment. Not for the first time, I refer you to Numbers 15:22ff, where people are indeed forgiven, but not without the blood of sacrifices being shed, for 'without the shedding of blood there is no remission.'

And you don't? Go on! Tell me what the Bible says is the purpose of punishment.

As a person drifts away from the biblical revelation that all must answer to God's Holy law, it is not too farin the future where they will drift and say hell does not exist, because there is no need to punish sin at all!
Your posts are so solid on this, everyone should be able to find the truth, well almost everyone !

 

[JonC]

I think you'll find that you did, on this very thread, less than 24 hours ago in your post #92. Here you are!

Are you suffering from short-term memory loss, or are you being deceitful?

The law makes no "demands" on God. He gave the law! And God will not deny Himself (2 Timothy 2:13). God is a just judge, and what He requires of human judges (e.g. Deut. 25:1) He also requires of Himself. Where there is a crime there must also be a punishment. Not for the first time, I refer you to Numbers 15:22ff, where people are indeed forgiven, but not without the blood of sacrifices being shed, for 'without the shedding of blood there is no remission.'

And you don't? Go on! Tell me what the Bible says is the purpose of punishment.

So, the law makes no demand on God. I agree.

If God forgives men based on "repentance", a "new heart", "made a new creation", being conformed into the image of Christ", "dying to sin", God removing the old heart and spirit, putting new ones in man....etc.
Then justice has no demand to punish those sins as the sinner no longer exists.

We agree that "without the shedding of blood there is no remission for sin" (in the context of Hebrews 9...that a covenant only comes into effect after the death of its maker).


It does not matter what I believe the purpose of punishment to be. I do not believe forgivebess depends on God punishing our sin. BUT you do.

So what is the purpose of punishment?

Why would God have to ounish our sins on Jesus to forgive us of those sins?

 

[JonC]

Another post broadcasting the truth ogf God, thanks Martin
As a person drifts away from the biblical revelation that all must answer to God's Holy law, it is not too farin the future where they will drift and say hell does not exist, because there is no need to punish sin at all!
Your posts are so solid on this, everyone should be able to find the truth, well almost everyone !

Actually....no.

@Martin Marprelate misused one verse (Hebrews 9:22) by ignoring Hebrews 9:1-21.

The context was the covenant in Christ taking effect.

He made the mistake of looking through the Bible to support his theory.

 

[JonC]

@Martin Marprelate and @Zaatar71

We all have Scripture. We can read God's words. What you are calling "God's Word" is not actually in the biblical text.

You offer one of many opinions about what the Bibke really teaches.

To evaluate your opinions you need to explain how you get from God's actual words to what you understand God to really be teaching.


You both say that Jesus suffered God's wrath. That God took our sins from us, put those sins on Jesus, punished our sins on Jesus, and this means God forgave our sins.

You both need to explain your philosophy.

What is the purpose of punishment?

In other words, why would God, upon removing our sins from us, have to punish our sins at all?

Why do you view the atonement as an issue of law?

 

[Zaatar71]

Actually....no.

@Martin Marprelate misused one verse (Hebrews 9:22) by ignoring Hebrews 9:1-21.

The context was the covenant in Christ taking effect.

He made the mistake of looking through the Bible to support his theory.

On the contrary. He understands the Covenant death fulfilling the redemption that the triune God has planned and purposed from eternity past.If you had paid more attention to Hebrews2:16, you might have followed along.
Martin unlike your rogue posting, includes Jesus as the end of the law for righteousness. He highlights the blood as central, not an after thought as you tag it on. He highlights the justice of God, so God can truly be declared the just, and the justifier! Good post and solid as usual Martin

 

[JonC]

On the contrary. He understands the Covenant death fulfilling the redemption that the triune God has planned and purposed from eternity past.If you had paid more attention to Hebrews2:16, you might have followed along.
Martin unlike your rogue posting, includes Jesus as the end of the law for righteousness. He highlights the blood as central, not an after thought as you tag it on. He highlights the justice of God, so God can truly be declared the just, and the justifier! Good post and solid as usual Martin

I meant the reason for the verse he quoted. The argument was Jesus suffering God's wrath.

You are also misusing God being just and the justifier of sinners (this was why God patiently looked over the sins committed prior to "that time").

You and @Martin Marprelate seem to be doing everything you two can to avoid explaining divine justice. I am starting to wonder if you even understand your own faith.

Why would God, upon removing our sins from us, have to punish our sins at all?

 

[Zaatar71]

I meant the reason for the verse he quoted. The argument was Jesus suffering God's wrath.

You are also misusing God being just and the justifier of sinners (this was why God patiently looked over the sins committed prior to "that time").

You and @Martin Marprelate seem to be doing everything you two can to avoid explaining divine justice. I am starting to wonder if you even understand your own faith.

Why would God, upon removing our sins from us, have to punish our sins at all?

Why does God have to punish the sins of those cast into second death? You have no biblical answer, you pervert the biblical concept totally. You are welcome to it. I am welcome to avoid your false ideas!

 

[Zaatar71]

I think you'll find that you did, on this very thread, less than 24 hours ago in your post #92. Here you are!

Are you suffering from short-term memory loss, or are you being deceitful?

The law makes no "demands" on God. He gave the law! And God will not deny Himself (2 Timothy 2:13). God is a just judge, and what He requires of human judges (e.g. Deut. 25:1) He also requires of Himself. Where there is a crime there must also be a punishment. Not for the first time, I refer you to Numbers 15:22ff, where people are indeed forgiven, but not without the blood of sacrifices being shed, for 'without the shedding of blood there is no remission.'

And you don't? Go on! Tell me what the Bible says is the purpose of punishment.

Your post reminds me of these truths; The saints in Heaven know the truth of these things. The knew in the first Century, they know it throughout all eternity!

Rev.1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth.[ Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,]

Rev.5:9 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof:
for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
vs5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain

Rev7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The saints know it is the blood of the Lamb slain, that washes away all sin as Jesus absorbed the penalty of the broken law as our Penal substitute. It is clear here. No snuggling with Satan under a blanket, as some would imagine

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Post #92.

Like I said, Calvinism is just another form of Roman Catholicism...different "popes" telling them what to believe.

Post #101.

I never said Calvinism is just another Romanism. I said that John Calvin held Legal Humanism.

Don't you think you owe the board just a teensy-weensy apology for misleading it?

 

[Zaatar71]

Post #92.
Post #101.
Don't you think you owe the board just a teensy-weensy apology for misleading it?

You are suggesting honesty is needed here? The poster contradicts himself, then starts athread and remarkably says this???
Oh....need to add....only honest discussions please. No trolls.
What is a "troll" anyway? Is it someone who likes your posts Martin? Or is it someone who denies the cross? A person can give lip service to the cross, but then strip away the biblical meaning and offer empty words in it's place.
In Islam they practice lying , they call it Takiya... then can lie and misrepresent themselves, in order to achieve their goals. They tell everyone how they really like them, and want to help, but then they shift and follow their own agenda.
Do Christians think it is okay to practice takiya???

 

[Martin Marprelate]

So, the law makes no demand on God. I agree.

If God forgives men based on "repentance", a "new heart", "made a new creation", being conformed into the image of Christ", "dying to sin", God removing the old heart and spirit, putting new ones in man....etc.
Then justice has no demand to punish those sins as the sinner no longer exists.

Because that is what the Bible teaches. If God wanted to do things another way, He would have done it another way. But at the same time, as I have pointed out to you many times, God cannot deny Himself. If His word says, as it does, that He is 'by no means clearing the guilty,' that means that He will by no means clear the guilty. As in an earthly court, justice must be done and be seen to be done. If there were any way for God to forgive sins but through the suffering and death of Christ, then you may be sure that the Father would not have given His beloved Son over to suffering and death. But the sins have to be 'cleared.' It is after the death, resurrection and ascension of our Lord that the Holy Spirit was poured out on mankind. It is 'by His wounds' that We are healed; it is His punishment that brings us peace; the Lord has placed all our iniquities upon our suffering Saviour, and He has borne them and the curse attached to them in His own body.
This is all so simple that a child could understand it, and indeed, in my experience, many do and come to saving faith. Why you can't see it is beyond me.

We agree that "without the shedding of blood there is no remission for sin" (in the context of Hebrews 9...that a covenant only comes into effect after the death of its maker).

The new covenant is in Christ's blood; that is what Hebrews 9 is saying. And if He had not suffered and died for us there would have been no forgivenness, because 'without the shedding of blood there is no remission.'

It does not matter what I believe the purpose of punishment to be. I do not believe forgivebess depends on God punishing our sin. BUT you do.

Do not twist my beliefs to suit your arguments. I believe that the Lord Jesus willingly took our sins upon Himself (John 10:18) and 'for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross and has sat down at the right hand of God' as our great High Priest, ever interceeding for us.

So what is the purpose of punishment?

The purpose of all things is to reveal God's glory. Whether it is the glory of His mercy in redmption, in which the triune God is glorified (e.g. Eph. 1:6, 12, 14) or of His justice in punishing the wicked (Deut. 32:4; Job 34:10-12; Psalm 62:12; 119:37). Another reason for the punishment of miscreants is to warn others not to commit sins (Deut. 13:11; 17:13 etc.).
Turretine wrote: 'if there be such an attribute as justice belonging to God, then sin must have its due, which is punishment.
Berkhof wrote: The penalty of sin does not proceed from the love and mercy of the Lawgiver, but from His justice. If reformation follows the infliction of punishment [c.f. Psalm 119:67. M.M.], this is not due to the penalty as such, but is the fruit of some gracious operation of God by which He turns that which is in itself an evil for the sinner into something that is beneficial.

Why would God have to ounish our sins on Jesus to forgive us of those sins?

See above.

 

[JonC]

Why does God have to punish the sins of those cast into second death? You have no biblical answer, you pervert the biblical concept totally. You are welcome to it. I am welcome to avoid your false ideas!

My answer (that God is holy) is biblical. You do not have to accept it.

I was asking you your answer.

This is what you always do :

1. You are asked to explain something of your faith.
2. You demand first that I answer that question.
3. I do, and you insult.
4. You never account for your faith

This is to avoid the fact that you have not clue what you believe. You cannot answer even the simplest questions about how you arrive at your concussions because you don't - you just regurgitate the faith of others. That is why you attack anybody who dare question the statements of your camp.

 

[JonC]

Because that is what the Bible teaches. If God wanted to do things another way, He would have done it another way. But at the same time, as I have pointed out to you many times, God cannot deny Himself. If His word says, as it does, that He is 'by no means clearing the guilty,' that means that He will by no means clear the guilty. As in an earthly court, justice must be done and be seen to be done. If there were any way for God to forgive sins but through the suffering and death of Christ, then you may be sure that the Father would not have given His beloved Son over to suffering and death. But the sins have to be 'cleared.' It is after the death, resurrection and ascension of our Lord that the Holy Spirit was poured out on mankind. It is 'by His wounds' that We are healed; it is His punishment that brings us peace; the Lord has placed all our iniquities upon our suffering Saviour, and He has borne them and the curse attached to them in His own body.
This is all so simple that a child could understand it, and indeed, in my experience, many do and come to saving faith. Why you can't see it is beyond me.

The new covenant is in Christ's blood; that is what Hebrews 9 is saying. And if He had not suffered and died for us there would have been no forgivenness, because 'without the shedding of blood there is no remission.'

Do not twist my beliefs to suit your arguments. I believe that the Lord Jesus willingly took our sins upon Himself (John 10:18) and 'for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross and has sat down at the right hand of God' as our great High Priest, ever interceeding for us.

The purpose of all things is to reveal God's glory. Whether it is the glory of His mercy in redmption, in which the triune God is glorified (e.g. Eph. 1:6, 12, 14) or of His justice in punishing the wicked (Deut. 32:4; Job 34:10-12; Psalm 62:12; 119:37). Another reason for the punishment of miscreants is to warn others not to commit sins (Deut. 13:11; 17:13 etc.).
Turretine wrote: 'if there be such an attribute as justice belonging to God, then sin must have its due, which is punishment.
Berkhof wrote: The penalty of sin does not proceed from the love and mercy of the Lawgiver, but from His justice. If reformation follows the infliction of punishment [c.f. Psalm 119:67. M.M.], this is not due to the penalty as such, but is the fruit of some gracious operation of God by which He turns that which is in itself an evil for the sinner into something that is beneficial.


See above.

That does not answer the question.

We all know that sin has its due punishment. The wages of sin is death. Sin produces death. And we all know that the one holding this power is Satan. We acceot Scripture.

I am asking the purpose of punishment. You keep saying it happens...we know it happens.

I will rephrase. What does punishment accomplish?

I disagree with Berkhof.

The reason is I do not believe the Atonement falls under divine justice. It's goal was not to address the law.

Now...does it address justice? Yes. It fulfills the law. But not through the law. Instead the Atonement addresses sin. Sin is not merely breaking the law, as Paul explained to us. Sin is not a matter of justice. It is a matter of falling short of God's glory.

This was why I ask you why you viewed the Atonement as an issue of the law.

 

[Zaatar71]

My answer (that God is holy) is biblical. You do not have to accept it.

I was asking you your answer.

This is what you always do :

1. You are asked to explain something of your faith.
2. You demand first that I answer that question.
3. I do, and you insult.
4. You never account for your faith

This is to avoid the fact that you have not clue what you believe. You cannot answer even the simplest questions about how you arrive at your concussions because you don't - you just regurgitate the faith of others. That is why you attack anybody who dare question the statements of your camp.

Looks as if you responded, but once again did not answer.The question is based on your other posts, why does God have to punish any sin, if Jesus as the Divine substitute did not undergo punishment that we deserved. To say God is Holy, we all agree on.What does that translate to as far as the question goes? I cannot really answer , as you have pointed out, I do not know what i believe, and can only repeat what others say.
You alone are the guiding light!

 

[JonC]

@Martin Marprelate.

We all hold the same standard with Scrioture.

We do not all believe the same sect of men teach the truth.
We do not all share the sane philosophy.
We do not all share the same presuppositions.

What I have been asking you, for almost two decades, is to explain and defend your philosophy.

The reason I ask is because we all have the sane Scriptures.

I understand that you read "Jesus bore our sins" to mean "Jesus suffered God's wrath".
I am not questioning that is your understanding.


I am asking how you get from God's words to your conclusions about what those words teach.


Why put the Atonement and Salvation under the law?

Why would justice demands that God punish sins even apart from punishing the one who actually committed those sins?

What does God punishing our sins laid on Jesus acvomplsh?

 

[JonC]

Looks as if you responded, but once again did not answer.The question is based on your other posts, why does God have to punish any sin, if Jesus as the Divine substitute did not undergo punishment that we deserved. To say God is Holy, we all agree on.What does that translate to as far as the question goes? I cannot really answer , as you have pointed out, I do not know what i believe, and can only repeat what others say.
You alone are the guiding light!

I did not answer because I do not believe that God has to punish sin.

I believe thar God punished the wicked to accomplish a purpose.

God recreates us into the image of Christ. God makes for Himself a holy people, set aside for His purposes. Why? Because God is holy. God will cast out the wicked (they are not holy, they do not belong in His "new creation". Casting them out is an everlasting punishment, but punishment itself is not the goal. The goal is creating a new heaven and a new earth which is holy (no evil, no wickedness).

So obviously I reject your theory. I believe the ourpose of God punishing the wivked is to make a new creation that is holy because God is holy.


Rather than insulting why not just answer my question.

Why would justice demand that God punish our sins removed from us and put on Jesus?

Why view Atonement as an issue of the law?