An Apostate

[Thomas Helwys]

If a man still has a will to leave the faith he was never saved. I submitted my will by surrender. But you claim a man can rise up in another rebellion. I can't believe that at all. You see when we hold back from the Lord we are not sincere. With God an accord is unbreakable. I may go astray but I will always belong to Him. He will always correct me. I will always accept His correction.
MB

So, he must have had a will to come to the faith and accept the gift of salvation, but he loses that will right afterward. God doesn't work that way. He never takes away our will.

 

[MB]

So, he must have had a will to come to the faith and accept the gift of salvation, but he loses that will right afterward. God doesn't work that way. He never takes away our will.

You couldn't be more wrong I gave my will over to Him willingly because I'm fully commited. I think you are looking at the will as a way out just in case. That is a false commitment. Rather like marriage today. If you don't like your wife you can always divorce her and marry another. To me a commitment is a promise we make to last all the way through the thick and thin. It is not something we can change our minds about. If you can it was never a true commitment to begin with.
MB

 

[Thomas Helwys]

You couldn't be more wrong I gave my will over to Him willingly because I'm fully commited. I think you are looking at the will as a way out just in case. That is a false commitment. Rather like marriage today. If you don't like your wife you can always divorce her and marry another. To me a commitment is a promise we make to last all the way through the thick and thin. It is not something we can change our minds about. If you can it was never a true commitment to begin with.
MB

I couldn't be more right, so where does that leave you?

I am definitely NOT looking at the will as a way out. You are wrong about that.

The will remains free, always. If you are only faithful because you are compelled to be and cannot willfully choose otherwise, then your faith is not really faith.

 

[convicted1]

I couldn't be more right, so where does that leave you?

I am definitely NOT looking at the will as a way out. You are wrong about that.

The will remains free, always. If you are only faithful because you are compelled to be and cannot willfully choose otherwise, then your faith is not really faith.

The question is this: "When we're saved, did we sell out to God, or just give him a 'down payment'"? When He saved me, I surrendered everything I had to Him, including my will, and He is the one I now serve. We submitted/surrender our will to Him, and our will is now His will.

 

[Monster]

The question is this: "When we're saved, did we sell out to God, or just give him a 'down payment'"? When He saved me, I surrendered everything I had to Him, including my will, and He is the one I now serve. We submitted/surrender our will to Him, and our will is now His will.

That's certainly the ideal. It should be our absolute intention; our whole heart, soul and mind commitment, no questions about it. There's always the issue of intent not equating to action, though.

So, how would you then address our ability to sin? How and why can we sin, if our will is now His will? Where does the act of sin spring from, if not from our own will? And/or, is there a distinction between that "source" of our sin and our will?

I'm not arguing with your points as much as trying to get a more in-depth understanding of where you're coming from.

It sort of reminds of the distaste I have for the song "I Surrender All" when I never actually have. I could sing "I Try To/Intend To/Hope To/Strive to/Etc... Surrender All" <---That's just a little illumination (I hope) about what I'm trying to get at.

And, for clarification's sake, I absolutely believe that we are once-saved-always-saved and by that through the will and grace of the Lord God Almighty. I'll avoid the minefield of where our will fits into that process.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

The question is this: "When we're saved, did we sell out to God, or just give him a 'down payment'"? When He saved me, I surrendered everything I had to Him, including my will, and He is the one I now serve. We submitted/surrender our will to Him, and our will is now His will.

But you still have a will, and it remains free.

 

[convicted1]

That's certainly the ideal. It should be our absolute intention; our whole heart, soul and mind commitment, no questions about it. There's always the issue of intent not equating to action, though.

So, how would you then address our ability to sin? How and why can we sin, if our will is now His will? Where does the act of sin spring from, if not from our own will? And/or, is there a distinction between that "source" of our sin and our will?

I'm not arguing with your points as much as trying to get a more in-depth understanding of where you're coming from.

It sort of reminds of the distaste I have for the song "I Surrender All" when I never actually have. I could sing "I Try To/Intend To/Hope To/Strive to/Etc... Surrender All" <---That's just a little illumination (I hope) about what I'm trying to get at.

And, for clarification's sake, I absolutely believe that we are once-saved-always-saved and by that through the will and grace of the Lord God Almighty. I'll avoid the minefield of where our will fits into that process.

Our "ability to sin"? Look at it like this. When we were unsaved, both the body and soul were in complete harmony with each other. Then, when God saved us, He made us perfect in the "inner man", but the flesh is still in a sinful state. That's why we have the warfare that Apostle Paul was referring to. We sin in the flesh because that's all our flesh knows to do. Our "inner man", which has been made perfect when God saved us, knows our flesh is rising up, and it moves and brings it back under subjection.

 

[convicted1]

But you still have a will, and it remains free.

If our will is still free, then we never completely surrendered all of ourself to Him.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

If our will is still free, then we never completely surrendered all of ourself to Him.

And I feel compelled to say (predestination, you know) that is nonsense.

We surrender all of ourself, but we don't lose our ability to choose or become mindless robots.

 

[Monster]

Our "ability to sin"?

Absolutely! It's called volition, it's human nature, thus we have the ability to sin or not to sin. And, that as saved individuals.

Look at it like this. When we were unsaved, both the body and soul were in complete harmony with each other. Then, when God saved us, He made us perfect in the "inner man", but the flesh is still in a sinful state. That's why we have the warfare that Apostle Paul was referring to. We sin in the flesh because that's all our flesh knows to do. Our "inner man", which has been made perfect when God saved us, knows our flesh is rising up, and it moves and brings it back under subjection.

Hmmm. This sounds a lot like the mitigation of personal responsibility and a denial of individual volition. While I agree with the essence of what you are saying, I've yet to meet any human that resembles perfection, inner or outer.

What's perfect in us is what God sees filtered through the redeeming cover of Jesus Christ.

 

[Monster]

If our will is still free, then we never completely surrendered all of ourself to Him.

Correct! Christ did the work that we aren't and never were able to do. He alone surrendered all, and we the saved/redeemed/atoned-for, are thankfully covered by Him and Him alone.

It's hints of a circular argument, ie: If we have no form of free will, we can't possibly, with volition, worship and glorify, God. God created us to glorify Him, (rather than the stones He mentions), thus we MUST have the ability to do so.

No matter how we try and reason this Heavenly "stuff" out, we fall short. It's simple, God is bigger.

From our understanding, we can have absolute free will and God is still absolutely above it...or, bigger. We simply can't fit the infinite in our finite vessels.

 

[MB]

I couldn't be more right, so where does that leave you?

I am definitely NOT looking at the will as a way out. You are wrong about that.

The will remains free, always. If you are only faithful because you are compelled to be and cannot willfully choose otherwise, then your faith is not really faith.

Only if your devotion to Him isn't complete. God doesn't want just part of your heart, He wants it all. We have to pick up our own cross and follow Him leaving all else behind.
MB

 

[MB]

Absolutely! It's called volition, it's human nature, thus we have the ability to sin or not to sin. And, that as saved individuals.




Hmmm. This sounds a lot like the mitigation of personal responsibility and a denial of individual volition. While I agree with the essence of what you are saying, I've yet to meet any human that resembles perfection, inner or outer.

What's perfect in us is what God sees filtered through the redeeming cover of Jesus Christ.

The only person ever to be perfect is Christ. The Spirit only, has been made new. The flesh is still natural and will be until it to is made new at the coming of Christ or, the resurrection. Then and only then will Christians be with out sin as pure as the driven snow.


MB

 

[MB]

Correct! Christ did the work that we aren't and never were able to do. He alone surrendered all, and we the saved/redeemed/atoned-for, are thankfully covered by Him and Him alone.

It's hints of a circular argument, ie: If we have no form of free will, we can't possibly, with volition, worship and glorify, God. God created us to glorify Him, (rather than the stones He mentions), thus we MUST have the ability to do so.

No matter how we try and reason this Heavenly "stuff" out, we fall short. It's simple, God is bigger.

From our understanding, we can have absolute free will and God is still absolutely above it...or, bigger. We simply can't fit the infinite in our finite vessels.

Well said.
MB

 

[Monster]

Well said.
MB

Right on!

And thanks. It's refreshing to have a kindly exchange and much appreciated.

 

[Monster]

The only person ever to be perfect is Christ. The Spirit only, has been made new. The flesh is still natural and will be until it to is made new at the coming of Christ or, the resurrection. Then and only then will Christians be with out sin as pure as the driven snow.


MB

And well said to you. (I have a dirty little secret though...I HATE SNOW! ;-) )

 

[saturneptune]

Would you call Judas an apostate? There have been many who have turned their backs on their church, doctrine, and religion. To be technical to be apostate seems to have little to do with our Salvation. You can be called apostate even if we turn our backs on our political party. It means treason. Peter was apostate when he was asked about Christ during His trial. He denied Him three times. Judas was apostate when he betrayed our Lord. Obviously Jesus forgave Peter so apostasy is not an unforgivable sin.
MB

An apostate spiritually is impossible. One is either saved or they are not. Judas was never saved in the first place. If we was, then his place in heaven would have been secure. Peter was saved in the first place. Peter denied the Lord because he was plain scared, but he loved the Lord. His heart was in the right place. Judas despised the Lord, and his heart was focused on his self centered ego and the world. Any remorse after getting caught on Judas' part was not Godly sorrow, but sorry I got caught.

Those two make a great spiritual lesson. In essence the same sin, but what a difference in eternal destiny.

 

[convicted1]

And I feel compelled to say (predestination, you know) that is nonsense.

It's your dime, and you can spend it anywhere, and buy anything you want with it.

We surrender all of ourself, but we don't lose our ability to choose or become mindless robots.

If we surrender all of ourself to Him, then how is our will still free to choose? Back under the OT days, those who were unable to pay their debts, or who were captured and spared death, became a bondservant to them. Look at those who surrendered themselves and became a servant to be spared death in the OT. They sure didn't retain their right to unchoose themselves when they sold themselves.

It's the same way now. When we are saved, we haved sold ourselves unto God, and are now His servant.

 

[convicted1]

Absolutely! It's called volition, it's human nature, thus we have the ability to sin or not to sin. And, that as saved individuals.

Agreed, as well. :thumbs:

Hmmm. This sounds a lot like the mitigation of personal responsibility and a denial of individual volition. While I agree with the essence of what you are saying, I've yet to meet any human that resembles perfection, inner or outer.

What's perfect in us is what God sees filtered through the redeeming cover of Jesus Christ.

Lemme see if I can put this a little more succinctly. When we are saved, our soul is what is saved, and it is placed in Him, and we(inner man) are made perfect, complete, holy, blameless, spotless, pristine, not because of anything we did, but what He did. We are clothed in His righteousness, and God now see us through His Son, and His shed blood, that was placed upon us, and made our soul(again, inner man) clean, righteous, etc. Now, when our flesh rises up, our soul(inner man), through the unctioning of the Holy Ghost, begins to pull in the reins, and brings our flesh under subjection. This is either done by Him speaking to us through that still, small voice, or a "Rod of Correction" right on the noggin. If our soul(inner man) hasn't been made perfect, then Christ failed....and we know He's not a failure. If the soul(inner man) hasn't been made perfect, then it wouldn't pull us back when we get out of line.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

It's your dime, and you can spend it anywhere, and buy anything you want with it.



If we surrender all of ourself to Him, then how is our will still free to choose? Back under the OT days, those who were unable to pay their debts, or who were captured and spared death, became a bondservant to them. Look at those who surrendered themselves and became a servant to be spared death in the OT. They sure didn't retain their right to unchoose themselves when they sold themselves.

It's the same way now. When we are saved, we haved sold ourselves unto God, and are now His servant.

Since neither of us will change our minds, I don't see any purpose in further discussion of this.