An Easy Newburgh ThD

[TomVols]

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Thanks Tom. The significant differences among Conservatives over God & Christ bothers me, perhaps too much.

No question that the doctrine of the trinity has been back-shelved by too many evangelicals. Al Mohler is right to call it a first-tier doctrine, affecting our relationships with other "believers" and "churches"

Martin wrote:

Hi Tom, thanks for the reply. Honestly, I would rather see a person stop at the MA/MDiv level than earn a degree from a school like Covington. I'm going to pull back on Newburgh Seminary because you seem to have a good opinion of it (to some degree). The case you presented above is one reason I would support allowing PhDs to be earn online in connection with oncampus modular courses.

I understand your opinion. I happen to disagree, that's all. And feel free to say whatever you like about Newburgh. You aren't going to hurt my feelings. It's not like my dad founded the school I think what I boil my feelings and opinions down to is that we have a structure regarding terminal doctorates in our country that's (1) Rigidly set; (2) Our presumed gold standard; and (3) Not like those of other countries. So does 2 mean that 3 is invalid? I guess that's sort of my thesis.

I think those requirements are standard with theological PhDs. It goes back to my cream of the crop statement. The person who earned his PhD/ThD from Newburgh Seminary maybe a Godly man who knows the Word of God and preaches it faithfully (which one does not need a PhD/ThD to do). However that PhD is not equal to the PhD at SBTS. The strong language requirements is part of the reason these programs are so demanding.

On balance I don't disagree with this statement. I just have a hard time dismissing a Newburgh grad (based on my observations and research) just because they didn't go to SBTS. Then again, anyone who didn't go to SBTS has some explaining to do anyway :laugh:

I'm not trying to compare the graduates. That is why I talked about my former pastor (etc). What I'm focusing on is the school itself and the product it is offering its students.

Well, you seemed to be. And the product produces a product. Both deserve scrutiny and evaluation. The former is easier to scrutinize than the latter, though it's even murkier when the catalog vs real school program comes into play.

there are some great distance education programs out there today. My problem is with schools, distance or oncampus, that are not providing their students with the best education and preparation possible. Again, the PhD is a top-level research degree. It is simply not for the average joe on the street. Yes, there are those who earn those degrees, from good schools, who have no business doing so. But that does not change my point about what should be required for a PhD/ThD program....Traditional or non-traditional is not the issue with me. I am a big supporter of distance education. My problem is with programs that are, or appear to be, of poor quality.

Agreed.

I've seen that type of work before at the seminary level (not doctoral). My reaction has generally been simply to shake my head and wonder who that person is blackmailing to stay in the school or to graduate.

John Bear has written extensively and persuasively about how quality educations are available almost anywhere. We have set of assumptions in this country about education that are largely myths of our own creation. Yet they are presumed standards. When a myth becomes a standard, you have a pretty shoddy framework with which one views things.

A person should not give up without at least trying. For me, I made the right decision.

It's essentially an individual matter before the Lord. It's kind of like the old movie Cooperstown and Jim Bouton's Ball Four. When we think about the Hall of Fame for baseball, we think of larger than life heroes who were super human. In fact, they weren't any of those things. They were great athletes who just so happened to be more than great at times, though chock full of foibles and frailties. Men of clay. That's kind of what the Ph.D. programs became after I peered inside the inner-workings of higher education. While I have great respect for them, and if I could I'd go to SBTS and do one of their doctoral programs tomorrow, there are alternatives out there for me and others like me to be able to do the research necessary for the effective practice of ministry and for contributing to the Kingdom (Something all PhD scholars should remember). Research doctorates should not be easy, but they should not be out of reach for those who can do them, and their focus should be on God-glorifying, Kingdom-advancing research.

 

[Pastor Dave]

Great School. Great Opportunity For Study

Newburgh Theological Seminary has been a good opportunity for me.
I've been blessed to serve as a pastor and participate in a
good long-distance study program.

 

[PilgrimPastor]

Newburgh Theological Seminary has been a good opportunity for me.
I've been blessed to serve as a pastor and participate in a
good long-distance study program.

I looked into a school called Northwestern Seminary (http://www.northwesternseminary.com/) when I lived in Florida about 4 years ago. I saw a mailing address so I went there since it was very near my home in Tarpon Springs, Florida. I drove all over a small area in New Port Richy looking for the address in a strip mall. At first I assumed they must be small and using a location in the shopping center or perhaps this was a satellite office or something. I finally found the address... it was a mailbox etc. mail box.

I did a few classes with a certain unaccredited school whom I left because after meeting the president I realized that they were not terribly upstanding. I was helping them rebuild a website and was considering mentoring undergraduate students. I told him I was thinking about earning a second doctorate after the one I was working on was completed (same deal, book reports of questionable depth - I'm certain mine were more than they expected!) and he told me, "You don't need to do any more work, I know some folks as "such and such other unaccredited schools" and we can take care of getting you more credentials if you want them..."

I left his home, drove to the school where I am currently earning an accredited D.Min. and informed him to remove me from all affiliation with the school.

I know personally the leadership from another UA school that I would recommend without reservation. The difference? Integrity.

Accreditation doesn't "ensure" integrity but it sure helps to save time investigating the school's faculty etc. Here's this thing, it may be a good opportunity to earn a degree in a distance format but at the price - Doctor of Theology (Th.D) 50 hours $2,495.00 (USD) - that is a lot to spend on a degree that most in the academic community won't respect.

Friend, if you want further education, read those books and save $2,395.00! If you have need or desire like me, to earn a terminal degree at the doctoral level, I can recommend far better programs at similar costs.

Also, how can one tout that degree with any confidence considering the WORK that others do for similar degrees? Look at the requirements for a Ph.D. in Theology from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School (http://www.tiu.edu/divinity/academics/programs/phd/ths/)

Pastor, just because the vast majority of your congregation doesn't know the difference between that Th.D. and one from other schools doesn't make it ok to use the title when it has such little substance behind it. I have written some devotional works and if I saw one of them being used as curriculum for a Th.D. program I would at least try to put a stop to it! Max Lucado for a Th.D? pAleeeese...

My friend Dr. Ken Gangel, who has now gone home to be with the Lord, once told me that the trouble is "When everybody's somebody nobody's anybody." he was talking about the inflation of pastoral credentials because of the rise of unaccredited institutions. Dr. Gangel wrote more than 40 books in Christian Education and served as Academic Vice President of Dallas Theological Seminary. He know what he was talking about and he was right.

 

[preachinjesus]

There is a pretty significant move afoot to help churches become informed about differing graduate and post-graduate degrees. Some of these mail-order degrees are pretty ridiculous and, honestly, make me pretty mad.

I took time to earn my PhD. I learned the languages, did the long hours of work, worked through the hundreds of texts, discussed items in seminar rooms for hours, wrote the 30 and 45 pages papers, completed a 350 pages dissertation, did the oral and written examinations, defended my research and was honored to be blessed with a good degree.

Then the other day I ran into a denominational muckety-muck with an honorary doctorate from an unaccreditted diploma mill who requires everyone to call him "Dr." And I wonder why it is so important for him?

Most of this is all about clergy advancement anyways. Sorry to say.

 

[TomVols]

I did a few classes with a certain unaccredited school whom I left because after meeting the president I realized that they were not terribly upstanding. I was helping them rebuild a website and was considering mentoring undergraduate students. I told him I was thinking about earning a second doctorate after the one I was working on was completed (same deal, book reports of questionable depth - I'm certain mine were more than they expected!) and he told me, "You don't need to do any more work, I know some folks as "such and such other unaccredited schools" and we can take care of getting you more credentials if you want them..."

I hear you. But I can also think right now of three RA/ATS schools that did virtually the same thing. One gave a D.Min guy 12 hrs credit for teaching a one-week seminar at a pastor's school overseas.

Accreditation doesn't "ensure" integrity but it sure helps to save time investigating the school's faculty etc.

I agree with everything before the word "but." However, I don't understand what you mean by what comes next.

I took time to earn my PhD. I learned the languages, did the long hours of work, worked through the hundreds of texts, discussed items in seminar rooms for hours, wrote the 30 and 45 pages papers, completed a 350 pages dissertation, did the oral and written examinations, defended my research and was honored to be blessed with a good degree.

I praise God for you and for that. That said, there are some quality people who may have taken other routes.

I was in a pastor's office recently. He handed me a D.Min project. Had to do with small group discipleship and church growth in a certain association of churches. He mocked the work as I flipped through it. I then saw the author's name. It was his. He said he actually made his committee think he believed that "garbage from hell." How did this help anyone?

Most of this is all about clergy advancement anyways.

I've had scores of seminary PhD guys from very well known schools say the same thing about their own pursuits. This isn't limited to distance ed or UA schools.

I'm no apologist for diploma mills. You have to do the legit work to get a legit degree. But I'd rather see a 100 page PhD dissertation that's useful to ministry/scholarship from Newburgh than a 300 pager from a Big six or TEDS or the like that adds nothing but a dust-collecting volume in a stack in the seminary library.

 

[StefanM]

I'm no apologist for diploma mills. You have to do the legit work to get a legit degree. But I'd rather see a 100 page PhD dissertation that's useful to ministry/scholarship from Newburgh than a 300 pager from a Big six or TEDS or the like that adds nothing but a dust-collecting volume in a stack in the seminary library.

I agree. From a non-minister's perspective, I think the D.Min. is often more valuable for ministry than the PhD. I'm by no means denigrating the value of the PhD, but the kind of research that a PhD program requires appears to be less practical than the average D.Min. program.

I consider the divide similar to the PhD/EdD divide in education.

 

[PilgrimPastor]

I agree with everything before the word "but." However, I don't understand what you mean by what comes next.

I'm just saying that if they are accredited I would like to be able to believe that the accrediting agency has done some of the "leg work" of ensuring a high degree of credibility for you, the student.

I know this may not always be the case, but I'd like to think that if a school has legitimate accreditation then you should at the very least be able to trust that you are getting a "respectable" degree with some type of academic rigor and career or ministry value.

Again, I know that may not always be the case.

 

[TomVols]

I agree. From a non-minister's perspective, I think the D.Min. is often more valuable for ministry than the PhD. I'm by no means denigrating the value of the PhD, but the kind of research that a PhD program requires appears to be less practical than the average D.Min. program.

I consider the divide similar to the PhD/EdD divide in education.

The problem with some D.Min/EdD programs is the project is so narrowly focused, that it cannot be replicated. Of course, some PhD dissertations can contribute nothing to the scholarship or practice of ministry. This does not have to be the case though.

I'm just saying that if they are accredited I would like to be able to believe that the accrediting agency has done some of the "leg work" of ensuring a high degree of credibility for you, the student.

I know this may not always be the case, but I'd like to think that if a school has legitimate accreditation then you should at the very least be able to trust that you are getting a "respectable" degree with some type of academic rigor and career or ministry value.

Again, I know that may not always be the case.

Having been part of two different accreditation teams, I'm no longer as enamored with agency vetting as I was before. At the end of the day, we cannot make blanket statements (especially prima facie) about any school, program or graduate except in rare cases. Obviously, the programs out there that require a ten page paper for a PhD or give you a Master's for 3 years pastoral experience are junk. But when someone must do writing and research and interact with mentors/faculty, we would do well to hold our fire.

 

[Major B]

I don't think this is entirely true. You can't really write a doctoral dissertation in less than 100 pages, probably 200. If you get past 350-400, your topic was probably too big. So quantity does matter, but quality certain matters more.

It is hard in some ways, but you can compare the syllabi for similar classes, the classes required/offered. The book list for comps is a good comparison. So it may be possible to give a totally objective comparison, and desires and opportunities differ, but it can be compared at least somewhat.

In doctoral work, the best thing to do is pick a person to study under. The place is not as important as the person is.

An old professor of mine studied under F.F. Bruce (Manchester U?). His first effort at his dissertation was 920 pages. Bruce said, "too long, cut at least 200 pages and re-submit..."

 

[liveinthelightofJESUS]

What do you guys think about this scenario?
If a student holds several degrees, for example, BA in Business from UCLA, MA in Education from USC, and Ph.D. from Stanford (all from recognized regional accreditation agencies) and later on decides to attend Newburgh Theological Seminary to get a Ph.D. in Biblical study. Would this student be labeled as less credible because of his last study was at a school that is not regional accredited, even he holds a Ph.D. from Stanford?

Just curious what you all think in this student's situation.

Thanks