An examination of Michael Card

Hi Scott,

Not necesarrily. I cant read a persons heart. Someone can be a born again person, have saving faith, and get sucked into catholicism for some reason, and may mouth those words. But if they are born again, they wont have a settled peace about all the false teaching they are trying to assimilate.

They will either eventually come to disown all of that and stay in in order to seek change from within, or eventually flee.

Some saved catholics might be on the fringe and not be aware of all that they really teach.

I have known some saved catholics who repudiate all the false teaching, but stay in in order to witness from within. Some just ignore the false teaching and just focus on Jesus. Let the rest go in one ear and out the other.

But I believe it is very rare, and not common at all, to find salvation in the midst of such error. God does still perform miracles, though.

Those errors up there are not taught by the Holy Spirit, but by some other spirit.

Sadly,

Mike

 

I Corinthians 15:1-5 sums up to me what the gospel is. THis is what the basics of the Christian faith are. Everything else is doctrine that may or may not be correct.

Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve.

The gospel is found in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ to fulfill the prophecies. This it it! This is why I can say that the RCC is not a heretical church. They fulfill the requirements of belief in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

Bob,

Although I've been posting for a while here at BB, I'm not that familiar with you. It appears I misunderstood what you were getting at. Sorry!

Personally, I pretty much place it into the same category as the JW's and Mormons. Mostly because of what I posted in my 1st post to you, and also their reliance on extra-biblical truth sources(Teaching Majestierium and tradition=Watchtower and Book of Mormon) and an earthly "inerrant" teacher(the pope=Joseph Smith or Taze Rusell)

It sounds to me like you are saying that the Catholic Church, at its inception, was "orthodox" but has been badly...tragically...flawed as more and more un-biblical falsehood has been added?

Would that be correct?

Also, I'm confused by this...

I agree totally with what you said at 1st, but if they are wrong on "Divine Revelation", the "Godhead", and "salvation" it would seem to me to necessitate them no longer being "orthodox"

Peace,

Mike

 

Scott,

That is a wonderful passage of scripture, but I have always understood it to be a good summation of essential facts of the saving gospel, facts that we must not compromise, but not an example of how the gospel is recieved by a person. In other words, it is not adressing the way in which regeneration is actualized.

Nowhere in there is repentance, or faith mentioned.

In other words, all that is being adressed is believing, in the context of intellectual ascent. We know from James that simply "believing" correct facts will not save anyone. The devil himself believes correct facts. As a matter of fact, satan Himself would give a hearty "Amen" to that entire passage! Satan believes every word of it. He knows full well that its all true.

But Satan has never done what God said...again through Paul, in Ephesians...

For it is by grace that you are saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. Satan has never entered into saving faith, which results in the indwelling Holy Spirit....

"For we are His workmanship, created for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them"

Satan has never been regenerated, and become a vessel for God to use for His good pleasure.

God bless,

Mike

 

I cannot place the RCC in with the Mormons or JWS because of Catholicism's orthodoxy on the Trinity . They are however a very unorthodox Church on Salvation and some other doctrines, but I do know of Christians in this Church who were saved despite the sacramental form of salvation.

Who are we as Baptists to judge? Recents stats show that only 33% of Southern Baptists go to Church. I believe Catholicism teaches some damning doctrines but I do know of some who have got saved despite what their catechism teaches. There is still enough truth left in it for a person to become a Christian though I would encourage all saved Catholics to leave it.

There is no orthodox foundation period in the Mormon Church, United Pentecostal Church or the JWS and other cults because of their denial of the Holy Trinity. I have never known a Christian in these heretical groups. I think a signature mark of a cult is a rejection of the Holy Trinity.

 

You've got 30% of the Protestant world believing that regeneration must occor before a man will choose Christ, while the other 70% believe that the Holy Spirit calls men who can choose to accept or reject him, after which comes regeneration. Which of these groups is heretical? They disagree on repentance, the origin of faith, and the chronology of regeneration. Are one of these groups heretics?

So what? What does this have to do with the RCC? What is your proof that these people are not saved? For, isn't that what it all boils down to?

 

Hi Scott,

Neither.

I think that the the mean spirited name calling and divisivness...at times...by both the calvinists and the arminians is very disturbing, and shouldnt be, but both are preaching the true gospel and are "co-laborers" in "the harvest".

Only if they deny the gospel.

If they deny that we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone...then yes, they are.

I said...

And you said...

It doesnt have anything to do with that. The specific issue I was responding to was different than that. Regarding all catholics being lost, I'm not saying they are all not saved. As a matter of fact, someone, maybe you, asked me that specifically, and I responded "No".

Some can be saved.

But my judgment is towards the official teachings of the Catholic Church. We are instructed to "test all things, and hold to that which is good".

Our standard, of course, is the word of God.

And we are to be careful to NOT be condemnatory regarding non-foundational things. We are to "let your brother be fully convinced in his own mind...who are you to judge your brother?" regarding those things.

But if a group is off on foundational things, we take a stand.

To me, the council of trent is the official declaration of the CC that those who are believing that they are justified by faith alone(The gospel) are cursed by the CC.

The belief in extra-biblical truth sources and "inerrant" human teachers is just like the LDS and JW's.

The official council of trent declaration that "commandment keeping" is a requirment for salvation, and those who reject that are cursed by the CC is another proof of a false gospel.

The whole "veneration" of Mary thing is not of God, but from another spirit, and is hidieous idolatry. I believe it is, in practice, "goddess worship". I know they deny that. But I'm just calling it what it clearly appears to be to me.

It would be as if the Gods people had told Moses "Oh no! We are not "worshipping" this golden calf, we are merely "veneratiing" it! Dont you see?"

I dont think God, or Moses, would have bought it.

I believe the "sacrifice" of the Mass is a blantant repudiation of Christs "once for all time" sacrifice for our sins.

Well, I'm rambling a bit. It appears we see this differently. May God continue to lead, and guide, both of us.

God bless,

Mike

 

While modalism may be an abberrant view, I don't place it in the same field as LDS or JWs. The biggest problem with the UPC is saying that those who do believe in the Trinity are lost, and if I heard correctly, a rejection of faith alone and assurance. another big problem in the theology is that in trying to explain how the one member of the godhead, Jesus, could pray to himself, they end up separating the human Jesus from the divinity, which does then cross over to become something like the JWs (or actually, unitarianism, more like the Way Int'l or Christadelphians). But there are many charismatics outside the UPC who do not hold the latter errors, but may express the Godhead in modalist terms. I can't say they are not true Christians because they say "three manifestations" rather than "three persons" (both of which are extra-biblical terms coined to define the positions in the debate). Even Hanegraaf and I think White says they can be saved (though "despite" their doctrine, rather than "because of" it).