An honest look at "free-will" #1: Gen.3:4-6

[BobRyan]

I think I addressed this once, but I will try again.

Eve DID NOT tell the serpent SHE KNEW it was wrong. "Wrong" had no meaning to her. "Right" had no meaning to her.

She knew the serpent had not stated the commands concerning the trees of the garden completely, and she stated them more completely, but not exactly.

Eve and God appeared to AGREE on what was right and the fact that she did wrong.

Nothing could be more obvious. Inventing the idea "God said to do one thing BUT I can eventually be persuaded to do ANOTHER thing - because I don't know that rebellion is wrong" is something you have to "make up".

The Bible NEVER SAYS that Adam and Eve did not "know right from wrong". But the Bible DOES say that about tiny infants that can not talk or walk.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[canadyjd]

Eve and God appeared to AGREE on what was right and the fact that she did wrong.

They certainly did, after the fall.

Nothing could be more obvious. Inventing the idea "God said to do one thing BUT I can eventually be persuaded to do ANOTHER thing - because I don't know that rebellion is wrong" is something you have to "make up".

I invented nothing. I am addressing the text, which you continue to refuse to do. You make it sound as if what I am saying about Adam and Eve applies to everyone; when you must know that is not what I am saying at all. I guess I'll try to make it clear.

Adam and Eve, and them alone, did not know good from evil. Adam and Eve, and them alone, did not know what "rebellion" was. They alone did not understand what they were doing was "wrong". That is why the scripture says Eve was deceieved.

What was the deception? That they would be "like God", when "knowing good and evil". Very plain, except it doesn't fit your beliefs concerning "free-will". Therefore, you refuse to address the text and try to take the debate into another direction.

The Bible NEVER SAYS that Adam and Eve did not "know right from wrong". But the Bible DOES say that about tiny infants that can not talk or walk.

The bible says Adam and Eve didn't know good and evil prior to the fall. You want to play word games and say "good and evil" is not the same as "right from wrong". "Tiny infants" have nothing to do with this debate.

Again, you refuse to address the text and answer the logical questions that arise from the text.

Eve believed the deception of Satan that she could use her own human will to choose good over evil and "be like God" while doing so. The deception of Satan is clearly stated.

I have addressed your questions. Please address mine.


Were Adam and Eve fundamentally changed by the fall? If so, in what way?


You have already stated Adam and Eve had "free-will" before the fall. What was different after the fall? Was their "free-will" hindered in anyway by the presence of sin in their lives? Or do you maintain that Adam and Eve were not changed by the fall at all?

peace to youraying:

 

[Rev. Lowery]

Hi!

When answering the OP's question we must remember that "free-will" means that we have control and in reality we don't God is always in control and is always sovereign. What we are is a free agent, meaning our decisions are ours to make!

Gods Will is always sovereign!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Scripture does not say Adam and Eve were guilty of death even before they ate of the tree. Scripture does not say Adam and Eve disbelieved God. Scripture says Eve was deceived. The deception was she could "be like God" when "knowing good and evil". That is, she could use her own human will to discern good and evil.

If anything, the first principle of sin is that human beings can choose between good and evil of their own human will. That was certainly the first deception of Satan.

Perhaps you will answer the question I have asked several times. Were Adam and Eve fundamentally changed by the fall? Was their so-called "free-will" affected by the fall? If so, how?

peace to youraying:

GE:

Genesis also says Eve found the fruit attractive to eat of. That is desire. That was sin then as is sin today. Sin has always been the same. Nothing that wasn't sin then has become sin now. Discern! is all I can advise you.

Then certainly was man 'fundamentally changed by the fall'. Whereas first they were not sinners, they now were. Whereas first they had free will, their will now had become enslaved to their fallen, prone to sin, nature. They had become the slaves of sin and the devil and their own inclinations - in their very being; which they before had not been.

 

[canadyjd]

GE:

Genesis also says Eve found the fruit attractive to eat of. That is desire. That was sin then as is sin today. Sin has always been the same. Nothing that wasn't sin then has become sin now. Discern! is all I can advise you.

It is not a sin, in an of itself, to "desire" something. It is not a sin to admire the beauty of God's creation. Discern the text, sir. Don't add to it.

Then certainly was man 'fundamentally changed by the fall'. Whereas first they were not sinners, they now were. Whereas first they had free will, their will now had become enslaved to their fallen, prone to sin, nature. They had become the slaves of sin and the devil and their own inclinations - in their very being; which they before had not been.

So you must agree with me that mankind does not have "free-will" today, since every will has been enslaved to sin, prone to sin and the inclinations of the devil?

peace to youraying:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Can…”Doesn't that make the concept of "free-will" choices in men (always choosing the good instead of evil) a deception from Satan; according to this passage?

HP: Where in the world did you arrive at the conclusion that the concept of free will choices in men is paramount to “always choosing the good instead of evil?” You sure did not get it from the verse you quote in Genesis.

 

[canadyjd]

HP: Where in the world did you arrive at the conclusion that the concept of free will choices in men is paramount to “always choosing the good instead of evil?” You sure did not get it from the verse you quote in Genesis.

You are misquoting me. To "be like God" when "knowing good and evil" is to always choose the good over the evil. Satan told Eve she could "be like God" when "knowing good and evil". It is a deception.

Are you saying the idea of "free-will" does not include the concept that every person potentially has the ability to always choose good over evil according to their own will? If not, then why not?

peace to youraying:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Can..You are misquoting me. To "be like God" when "knowing good and evil" is to always choose the good over the evil.

HP: How do I misquote you when I quote you word for word? Where does Scripture or reason state or imply that “to be like God.. knowing good from evil” is "to always chose the good over the evil? "

 

[canadyjd]

Are you saying the idea of "free-will" does not include the concept that every person potentially has the ability to always choose good over evil according to their own will? If not, then why not?

peace to youraying:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Can…: Are you saying the idea of "free-will" does not include the concept that every person potentially has the ability to always choose good over evil according to their own will? If not, then why not?

HP: Are you now saying that free will is NOT that we always chose the good over evil but rather have the ‘potential’ to do so? If that is what you are trying to say, I would say this. If God is going to praise or blame man for a choice that one makes, the possibility has to exist that one could do something other than what one does under the very same set of circumstances.

Just because one has free will in some areas in no way implies that free will must exist in all areas. I repeat, in what ever areas God attaches blame and subsequent punishment, the possibility has to exit to do something other than what one does under the very same set of circumstances.

 

[canadyjd]

HP: Are you now saying that free will is NOT that we always chose the good over evil but rather have the ‘potential’ to do so? If that is what you are trying to say, I would say this. If God is going to praise or blame man for a choice that one makes, the possibility has to exist that one could do something other than what one does under the very same set of circumstances.

Just because one has free will in some areas in no way implies that free will must exist in all areas. I repeat, in what ever areas God attaches blame and subsequent punishment, the possibility has to exit to do something other than what one does under the very same set of circumstances.

OK, look. Please don't come into the thread without reading the posts and make a bunch of accusations. I am not going to spend time correcting all your misrepresentations of what I have said.

As far as what you said in the second paragraph, it simply has nothing to do with Gen. 3

peace to youraying:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Can: OK, look. Please don't come into the thread without reading the posts and make a bunch of accusations. I am not going to spend time correcting all your misrepresentations of what I have said.

HP: Please take the time. Where have I misrepresented you? If you don't mean what your quote states, change the wording of your posts to better describe what you believe is the truth, and to at least try to eliminate misunderstandings.

 

[canadyjd]

HP: Please take the time. Where have I misrepresented you? If you don't mean what your quote states, change the wording of your posts to better describe what you believe is the truth, and to at least try to eliminate misunderstandings.

Read the posts. You'll figure it out.

peace to youraying:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Can….: Well, it makes sense to me, but maybe I'm not explaining myself well enough. Prior to eating the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, Adam and Eve did not know what "evil" was. They did not know what "good" was. They, therefore, had no basis for making "free-will" choices between "good" and "evil". They had human will which was obviously subject to the deceptions of Satan.

They knew that what they were doing was different from what God told them to do, but they could not know that it was "wrong" because they did not know good from evil.

HP: Who said that the first pair did not understand what it was to obey and disobey? They sure knew enough immediately after sinning to hide themselves from their Creator, God. Certainly having never sinned they had not experienced guilt or shame, but how does this equate to not having the ability to understand what it was to obey or to disobey, and the associated fellowship that they knew full well existed while in a state of obedience?

Certainly they did not comprehend the heinousness of sin and the terrible consequences of their choices as God indeed knew, but to say that they ‘did not know what good is’ or that they had no concept of disobedience or possess a free will to either obey or disobey, is to simply adding into the text something that is not expressed or implied.

 

[BobRyan]

Eve had to be argued IN to sinning. The text says that "When she SAW that it was good" -- God's statement was that it was bad -- Satan was trying to "prove" God wrong.

A convincing argument on his part needed to DECEIVE Eve.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

When answering the OP's question we must remember that "free-will" means that we have control and in reality we don't God is always in control and is always sovereign. What we are is a free agent, meaning our decisions are ours to make!

Gods Will is always sovereign!

God "is not WILLING that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" 2Peter 3.

God's WILL apparently is to allow for FREE WILL even though HE is not willing for any to perish.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[canadyjd]

Eve had to be argued IN to sinning. The text says that "When she SAW that it was good" -- God's statement was that it was bad -- Satan was trying to "prove" God wrong.

A convincing argument on his part needed to DECEIVE Eve.

In Christ,

Bob

Please show me where God told Eve the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was "bad"? God said don't eat the fruit or you will die. No mention of "bad", according to my bible anyway.

The text says when she saw it was "good for food." Not that it was "good" in a general sense of "goodness", but that it was "good for food", i.e., edible. If you leave out the "for food", you change the context and the meaning.

At least we agree Eve was deceived.

By the way, have you ever answered my question? If Adam and Eve had "free-will" before the fall, how was their "free-will" effected by the fall? Or, do you believe the entrance of sin into their lives had no effect on their will?

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

HP: Who said that the first pair did not understand what it was to obey and disobey?

Scripture says Eve was deceived into eating the fruit. Adam "listened" to his wife. There is no mention in the Gen. text of obeying or disobeying.

They sure knew enough immediately after sinning to hide themselves from their Creator, God.

Because sin had entered into their lives after the fall.

Certainly having never sinned they had not experienced guilt or shame, but how does this equate to not having the ability to understand what it was to obey or to disobey...but to say that they ‘did not know what good is’ or that they had no concept of disobedience or possess a free will to either obey or disobey, is to simply adding into the text something that is not expressed or implied.

Because the fruit was from the tree of "the knowledge of good and evil". It is simple, then, to understand that they did not have the knowledge of good and evil prior to eating the fruit. Obeying is good. Disobeying is evil. They didn't know what either was until after eating the fruit.

peace to youraying:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Can…: Scripture says Eve was deceived into eating the fruit. Adam "listened" to his wife. There is no mention in the Gen. text of obeying or disobeying.

HP: Neither is there any mention of sin in the verse in question. Could I logically assume that sin did not occur, arguing from what might be seen by some as, at least in some far out sense, silence?

Can…: Because sin had entered into their lives after the fall.

HP: Sin entered as a direct result of their sinful choice to eat of the forbidden tree.

Can: Because the fruit was from the tree of "the knowledge of good and evil". It is simple, then, to understand that they did not have the knowledge of good and evil prior to eating the fruit.

HP: Only if you desire to take Satan’s words as fact, when we know that he is a liar and deceiver.

Can: Obeying is good. Disobeying is evil. They didn't know what either was until after eating the fruit.

HP: You have no proof of that at all from Scripture, other than again, Satan’s word. When God told the pair that He created and granted to them reason to understand His commands and understand that their would be dire consequences for disobedience, they did not have to understand the nature of those consequences or to experience them to disobey a known and understood command of God. As BR aptly pointed out, they had to be convinced to disobey. Deceived or not, they willingly chose to disobey a known commandment of God, and in the process sinned and became guilty before God. Nothing can be clearer in Scripture.

 

[canadyjd]

HP: Neither is there any mention of sin in the verse in question. Could I logically assume that sin did not occur, arguing from what might be seen by some as, at least in some far out sense, silence?

No. We know from other scripture (Romans 5) that sin entered through the transgression of the command not to eat the fruit.

HP: Sin entered as a direct result of their sinful choice to eat of the forbidden tree.

Scripture says sin entered by the transgression of the command. They ate the fruit (transgression of the command) and then sin entered. Scripture does not say, that I have ever seen, that sin entered when Eve "made the choice", but prior to eating the fruit.

HP: Only if you desire to take Satan’s words as fact, when we know that he is a liar and deceiver.

You are confused, I think. God planted the tree and gave it's name: The tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

HP: Deceived or not, they willingly chose to disobey a known commandment of God, and in the process sinned and became guilty before God. Nothing can be clearer in Scripture.

You appear to be saying that sin entered through the process of "choosing" to disobey God. That is clearly a misrepresentation of what scripture says. Scripture says "Eve was deceived" not "Eve chose to disobey". Scripture says sin entered through the transgression of the command, not "sin entered as soon as they made the choice to disobey God."

peace to youraying: