An honest question about free will.

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Rev. G:
"By GRACE ARE YOU SAVED, THROUGH FAITH, and THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES, it is the GIFT OF GOD, NOT OF WORKS, LEST ANYONE SHOULD BOAST." - Eph. 2:8-9

The grace is not of yourselves. The grace is the gift from God, lest any man should boast. Not faith.

 

[Rev. G]

So Scott, are you agreeing with Yelsew that "grace is not part of the equation." Sorry, JESUS saves! Faith is the instrument in receiving salvation, not the cause of it (God's love / grace through Christ is the cause). If you believe faith is the cause, then you HAVE turned faith into a "work".

Here is what I posted previously:

NO!!! The Triune God saves!!! He does this most particularly through the work of Jesus. When He saves, it is by His grace. Belief (faith) does not save - it is merely the "empty hand of a beggar" that receives the gift.

Rev. G

[ November 01, 2002, 11:46 AM: Message edited by: Rev. G ]

 

[Rev. G]

That is NOT biblical at all..that is a heresy!

Actually, Shilo, Pelagianism and Semi-Pelaginism (aka "Arminianism") have been condemned as heresy by more Church Councils / Synods than any other belief systems in the history of the Church. On the other hand, Augustinianism (aka Calvinism) has never been condemned as heresy. The historic Protestant, and most Baptist, confessions of faith take this position.

Rev. G

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Rev. G:
So Scott, are you agreeing with Yelsew that "grace is not part of the equation." Sorry, JESUS saves! Faith is the instrument in receiving salvation, not the cause of it (God's love / grace through Christ is the cause). If you believe faith is the cause, then you HAVE turned faith into a "work".

Here is what I posted previously:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> NO!!! The Triune God saves!!! He does this most particularly through the work of Jesus. When He saves, it is by His grace. Belief (faith) does not save - it is merely the "empty hand of a beggar" that receives the gift.

Rev. G</font>[/QUOTE]I actually completely agree with you. We disagree on the origin of faith, but without grace, no one is saved.

 

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by npetreley:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Chappie:
What a blessing a straight forward answer to Shilo's question would be...

It seemed too obvious, to me, and I had answered him before on this very issue. Election means to be chosen. It does not always mean to be chosen for salvation.

For example, here's one thing the Jews were chosen for...

Romans 3
1 What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2 Much in every way! First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of God.

</font>[/QUOTE]So, do we accept that according to calvinism, the words chosen and elect can have different rammifications. The elect of God, I suppose to be in refrence to salvation; yet the chosen can be unto any number of purposes. Context will dictate. Am i right or wrong?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Chappie:
So, do we accept that according to calvinism, the words chosen and elect can have different rammifications. The elect of God, I suppose to be in refrence to salvation; yet the chosen can be unto any number of purposes. Context will dictate. Am i right or wrong?

This is true no matter what position you take or even if you don't have a position. The meaning of words is always univocal and determined by context. Those are the two most basic tenets of hermeneutics. The words translated elect and chosen are in most cases the same word or a derivative of it. One can be elect to salvation or elect to something else. Don't lean to heavily on English words being different here. A word has no communicative value apart from a context in which it is used. Therefore, the meaning of any word is determined by the context of its use.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Rev. G:
"By GRACE ARE YOU SAVED, THROUGH FAITH, and THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES, it is the GIFT OF GOD, NOT OF WORKS, LEST ANYONE SHOULD BOAST." - Eph. 2:8-9

The grace is not of yourselves. The grace is the gift from God, lest any man should boast. Not faith.</font>[/QUOTE]That isn't gramatically likely, unless Paul was a poor writer or thought the reader didn't know the definition of grace. Because what he would have been saying is, "By the free gift of God you have been saved, through faith, and that free gift of God is not of yourselves, it is a free gift of God..."

Most free-will advocates say that "that" refers to salvation, but even that is't gramatically likely. The proper way to write it would have been to say "and that salvation is not of yourselves," because one couldn't say "that saved is not of yourselves," which is you get when you leave out the word.

So the most obvious and natural word for "that" to point back to is "faith". So IMO Rev G. is quite correct - it is "this (faith) is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God..."

(Edit: Changed "this" to "that" - grin)

[ November 01, 2002, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: npetreley ]

 

[Ray Berrian]

Shilo,

I think you posted the verse in Ephesians 1:13. Great truth! Notice God said through the Apostle Paul the correct order. ' . . . AFTER YOU BELIEVED--{then what?} YOU THEN WERE SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT. Calvinists confuse the order in God's giving of salvation. You are exactly right. Plain as the nose on my face.

Ray

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Shilo,

I think you posted the verse in Ephesians 1:13. Great truth! Notice God said through the Apostle Paul the correct order. ' . . . AFTER YOU BELIEVED--{then what?} YOU THEN WERE SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT. Calvinists confuse the order in God's giving of salvation. You are exactly right. Plain as the nose on my face.

Ray

I guess I can't see your nose.

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Whether or not you agree with Calvinism, being sealed by the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of our inheritance is not the same thing as being drawn and enabled by the Father through the Holy Spirit in order to believe in the first place.

 

[shilo]

Whether or not you agree with Calvinism, being sealed by the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of our inheritance is not the same thing as being drawn and enabled by the Father through the Holy Spirit in order to believe in the first place

That is NOT True.

YOur not drawn by the Holy spirit your drawn by Jesus Christ and the Gospel.

Tell me from this passage who In John was Drawn by the Holy Spirit and enabled to believe?

"Neverthe less it is expediant for yo that I go away: For If i go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; But if I depart i will send him unto you.

SO who that believed in John had the Holy spirit enabling him to believe???? Especially when the Holy Spirit was not even Given until the death of Christ!

NOt only that but the Job of the Holy spirit was put straight forward. That he would reprove the WORLD of sin and NOT just the elect.

Also

It seemed too obvious, to me, and I had answered him before on this very issue. Election means to be chosen. It does not always mean to be chosen for salvation.

You haven't ansered me on this At lest I dont recall it.

But no less..
Is God the same today as he was yesterday ..Does he change??

Israel Is DEFINITLY God's elect scripture makes that perfectly clear...according to your interpretation of Ehp.1:4 they were chosen before the foundation of the world. which means they would have had to have been irresistably saved as well when Christ Came..yet they rejected him

Your theology if true should be consistant through out the Bible. but it's apparently not. which means as you showed, You pick and Chose scriptures to make them fit what you think the Bible should say.

the Bottom line is this. Israel Are God's elect. it doesn't matter what you think they were chosen for..He said they were HIS ELECT he hasn't changed his mind about that. (Romans 11:1) but they rejected Jesus. Which means 1.Elect does not mean what Calvinist say it does
2. Israel proves man can reject the Lord even when they are chosen before Christ even shows up.
Irresistable grace is Nonsense as Stephen pointed out

"YE stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, YE DO ALWAYS RESIST THE HOLY GHOST"

if they could resist so can any man.

Fatih is NOT A gift of God.

The gift of god is Salvation in Ehp 2:8,9 and if you have a hard time with english and breaking down sentances the Bible tells

you again in Romans 6:28

The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. NOT faith.

See that little word FOR?? (eph 2;8) this refers us to the immediate context which God is saving the dead sinner, not irresistabley granting faith. Salvation is by grace, through faith, not of ourselves it (salvation ) is the gift of God

Faith is the medium of reception. Faith is NEVER spoken of as a gift given to unsaved men

salvation is God's gift, God's free gift. by this very nature a gift has to be recieved or rejected. there is no such thing as an irresistable gift.

If that isn't enough CALVIN said of this verse

" But they commonly misinterpret this text, and restrict the word "gift' to faith alone. But paul is only repeating his earlier statement in other words. He does not mean that Faith is the gift of God, but that salvation is given to us God, or that we obtain it by the gift of God".

 

[Pastor Larry]

As a textbook example of failing to think through a position before posting, consider the following.

Originally posted by shilo:
YOur not drawn by the Holy spirit your drawn by Jesus Christ and the Gospel. ... Irresistable grace is Nonsense as Stephen pointed out

"YE stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, YE DO ALWAYS RESIST THE HOLY GHOST"

if they could resist so can any man.

If the Holy Spirit was not drawing them, then why were they resisting him?? You own proof text disproves your earlier contention.

Then you say, Fatih is NOT A gift of God. However, this contradicts Phil 1:29 where we are told that faith is a gift of God. Once again, Scripture contradicts you.

... if you have a hard time with english and breaking down sentances the Bible tells

No one here has a hard time with English but you will have a hard time posting here if your manner of continues to include comments like these. Clean it up and be civil towards others.

 

[Eric B]

That isn't gramatically likely, unless Paul was a poor writer or thought the reader didn't know the definition of grace. Because what he would have been saying is, "By the free gift of God you have been saved, through faith, and that free gift of God is not of yourselves, it is a free gift of God..."
So the most obvious and natural word for "that" to point back to is "faith".

But your view would still face the same problem: "By grace have you been saved through the free gift of God, and that free gift of God is not of yourselves, it is a free gift of God...".

The proper way to write it would have been to say "and that salvation is not of yourselves," because one couldn't say "that saved is not of yourselves," which is you get when you leave out the word.

"that [being] saved is not of yourselves"

Actually, Shilo, Pelagianism and Semi-Pelaginism (aka "Arminianism") have been condemned as heresy by more Church Councils / Synods than any other belief systems in the history of the Church. On the other hand, Augustinianism (aka Calvinism) has never been condemned as heresy.

And that same church would later throw out all of Augustine's definition of salvation (but not his ecclesiology, dualistic rejection of marriage, etc), along with the Biblical teaching of grace and regeneration in favor of rank Pelagianism (works that may still not get you out of purgatory). So what does appealing to Church authority mean?

 

[BobRyan]

Farley
How can a man who is dead in sin(Eph 2)and not able to receive the things of God(1Cor 2)and in the flesh can't please God and whose mind can't be subject to God (Rom 8:7) in his own flesh and dead spirit generate saving faith? If he could would that not make him co-redeemer? Would that not make salvation a reward for those who had the ability or good judgement to believe on Christ and not Gods pure and unconditional grace?

Thank you for posting this oft-repeated question.

And thanks to those other of the Calvinist faith that endorse the question above - showing that they have not yet "heard" the mainline Arminian statement on this point - though it is often given in "Response" to the oft-repeated question. The Arminian answer that when offered to Calvinists results in a deafening silence and inexplicable avoidance.

So -- here it is again.

BOTH Calvinism and Arminianism claim that man is totally depraved such that ONLY the supernatural power of God can change that "dead in sin" innactivity of the soul.

BOTH Calvinism and Arminianism claim that the John 12:32 supernatural, powerful drawing of God is sufficient to address EVERY point you have listed above.

and not able to receive the things of God(1Cor 2)and

BOTH Calvinism and Arminianism AGREE that until the lost respond in FAITH - they are not "PLEASING to God"


in the flesh can't please God and whose mind can't be subject to God (Rom 8:7)

BOTH Calvinism and Arminianism agree that
APART from the drawing of God, Man -
in his own flesh and dead spirit generate saving faith?

So - there is in fact no need to pretend that we don't notice that at the start - we have unity on a number of points.

But there is also much by way of differences.

Because Arminians assign that "DRAWING" of God to "ALL MEN" John 12:32 - and Calvinists do not.

And in that single point - can be found all the subsequent differences. Instead of "noticing that salient point" it seems that some Calvinists are content to pretend that the Arminian view was NOT pointing at John 12:32 as "the solution" to the innability problem of total depravity. Though this has often be pointed out - and seems to receive no answer.

So my question remains - "why pretend"?

Why not simply address the real differences and offer your proofs for your views based on the substantive understanding of the similarities and differences as they really exist?

The ABILITY is then - given by God EVEN in the Calvinist model - JUST as in the Arminian. The difference being that in the Arminian model God "DRAWS ALL MANKIND UNTO HIM", and in the Calvinist model - "he does not draw ALL mankind - just all TYPES of mankind".

But in BOTH systems that "DRAWING" is "sufficient" to compensate of for the "INNABILITY" of lost depraved mankind left to himself.

And so having GIVEN the ability

Phil 3:

8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,
9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;
11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

farley
Would that not make salvation a reward for those who had the ability or good judgement to believe on Christ and not Gods pure and unconditional grace?

1 Cor 9
23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified

I believe the point Paul has made above - is the final word on this point.

In Christ,

Bob

[ November 02, 2002, 09:22 AM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

[Farley]

Jesus paid it all
all to him I owe
sin had left a crimson stain
he washed it white has snow.

Ye chosen seed of Israels race
Ye ransomed from the fall
bring forth the royal diadem
and crown him LORD of all!

 

[shilo]

If the Holy Spirit was not drawing them, then why were they resisting him?? You own proof text disproves your earlier contention.

Well Pastor Larry I just beleive what the bible says I don't try to explain it away. Jn. says No Comforter was given until Christ was crucified. I belive what the Bible said

Christ said that HE would draw all men to him..I believ what Jesus said.

Stephen said that The Holy Ghost is resisted. I believe what is written in the Bible. NO SUCH ANIMAL AS IRRESISTABLE GRACE at least according to stephen.

Then you say, Fatih is NOT A gift of God. However, this contradicts Phil 1:29 where we are told that faith is a gift of God. Once again, Scripture contradicts you.

Faith is Not a gift. and phil. 1:29 in no way contradicts that statement.

Faith is not mentioned neither is gift mentioned.. you have to read your own interpretation into the text to make it line up with the notion that faith is a gift. it's not there.

Like I said before Faith is the medium of reception it is the God appointed means of appropriation:

"Therfore being justifed by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ"

"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus"

" AND be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the Faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith.'

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Eric B:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> That isn't gramatically likely, unless Paul was a poor writer or thought the reader didn't know the definition of grace. Because what he would have been saying is, "By the free gift of God you have been saved, through faith, and that free gift of God is not of yourselves, it is a free gift of God..." So the most obvious and natural word for "that" to point back to is "faith".

But your view would still face the same problem: "By grace have you been saved through the free gift of God, and that free gift of God is not of yourselves, it is a free gift of God...". </font>[/QUOTE]ROFL! At least, I hope that was meant to be a joke! So you're saying...

1. God is love
2. Love is blind
3. Ray Charles is blind
4. Therefore Ray Charles is god

All grace is a free gift, and all free gifts are by grace, so to say the gift is grace is to be redundant. But while faith is always a free gift, not all free gifts are faith.

(All cats are animals, but not all animals are cats...)

 

[russell55]

Faith is Not a gift. and phil. 1:29 in no way contradicts that statement.
Faith is not mentioned neither is gift mentioned.. you have to read your own interpretation into the text to make it line up with the notion that faith is a gift. it's not there.

For unto you it is given (It is a gift to you) .... to believe on Him (that you believe on Him--your faith)

How can you say that this verse doesn't say that your faith (your belief) is a gift? There is no reading INTO the text, just a plain and simple reading of the text.

[ November 01, 2002, 09:14 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ]

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by shilo:

Israel Is DEFINITLY God's elect scripture makes that perfectly clear...

And that's exactly what I said.

Originally posted by shilo:
according to your interpretation of Ehp.1:4 they were chosen before the foundation of the world.

No, that's according to your interpretation of what I said, because you insist that I'm saying to be elect means to be chosen to be saved, even though I've repeatedly said otherwise.

Originally posted by shilo:
The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. NOT faith.

If I find a verse that says speaking in tongues is a gift, does that cancel your eternal life verse?

Originally posted by shilo:
If that isn't enough CALVIN said of this verse

" But they commonly misinterpret this text, and restrict the word "gift' to faith alone. But paul is only repeating his earlier statement in other words. He does not mean that Faith is the gift of God, but that salvation is given to us God, or that we obtain it by the gift of God".

It's a good thing that I don't call myself a Calvinist, then, because the best I could say is that I am a Calvinist who disagrees with Calvin on at least one point. As I've said elsewhere a number of times, I've never studied Calvin, so I don't know on which points I'd agree or disagree.

 

[Yelsew]

Free will is the ONLY thing man has with which to respond to God! If we do not exercise our free will to choose what God offers us, God is not going to force it upon us, elect or not!

 

[TomMann]

So tell us why are there Jews in hell when they are God's elect people that he has chosen??

Why did they reject Jesus if Irresitable grace is true??

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
KJV