Thank you for posting this oft-repeated question.
And thanks to those other of the Calvinist faith that endorse the question above - showing that they have not yet "heard" the mainline Arminian statement on this point - though it is often given in "Response" to the oft-repeated question. The Arminian answer that when offered to Calvinists results in a deafening silence and inexplicable avoidance.
So -- here it is again.
BOTH Calvinism and Arminianism claim that man is totally depraved such that ONLY the supernatural power of God can change that "dead in sin" innactivity of the soul.
BOTH Calvinism and Arminianism claim that the John 12:32 supernatural, powerful drawing of God is sufficient to address EVERY point you have listed above.
and not able to receive the things of God(1Cor 2)and
BOTH Calvinism and Arminianism AGREE that until the lost respond in FAITH - they are not "PLEASING to God"
in the flesh can't please God and whose mind can't be subject to God (Rom 8:7)
BOTH Calvinism and Arminianism agree that
APART from the drawing of God, Man -
in his own flesh and dead spirit generate saving faith?
So - there is in fact no need to pretend that we don't notice that at the start - we have unity on a number of points.
But there is also much by way of differences.
Because Arminians assign that "DRAWING" of God to "ALL MEN" John 12:32 - and Calvinists do not.
And in that single point - can be found all the subsequent differences. Instead of "noticing that salient point" it seems that some Calvinists are content to pretend that the Arminian view was NOT pointing at John 12:32 as "the solution" to the innability problem of total depravity. Though this has often be pointed out - and seems to receive no answer.
So my question remains - "why pretend"?
Why not simply address the real differences and offer your proofs for your views based on the substantive understanding of the similarities and differences as they really exist?
The ABILITY is then - given by God EVEN in the Calvinist model - JUST as in the Arminian. The difference being that in the Arminian model God "DRAWS ALL MANKIND UNTO HIM", and in the Calvinist model - "he does not draw ALL mankind - just all TYPES of mankind".
But in BOTH systems that "DRAWING" is "sufficient" to compensate of for the "INNABILITY" of lost depraved mankind left to himself.
And so having GIVEN the ability
Phil 3:
8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,
9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;
11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
farley
Would that not make salvation a reward for those who had the ability or good judgement to believe on Christ and not Gods pure and unconditional grace?
1 Cor 9
23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified
I believe the point Paul has made above - is the final word on this point.
In Christ,
Bob
[ November 02, 2002, 09:22 AM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]