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An Incarnational Christological Question
- Thread starter SATS PROF
- Start date
His deity cannot die, nor cease to be God, while His humanity is limited, as He has a sinless nature, but was humgrey, felt the elements, got tired eyc!
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If the deity in Christ is unlimited ,and the humanity in Christ is limited, does each have its own distinct will and intellect? Does each nature experience and will in distinction from the other but never distinct from the unified Person?,
No, the Lord jesus is not schzoid, as he has the 2 Natures, but in perfect unison! One Mind and one will
Then that one mind which was omniscient changed to learned, ( Heb 5:8) and that one will which was sovereign became subordinate (Phil 2:8)? Is God not immutable?
Have you , by chance, read Leo, Gregory of Nyssa, Tertullian, Agatho, Constantinople 681, Theodore, Theodoret, John of Damascus, Chemnitz, Calvin, Shedd, Wiley, BB Warfield, AB Bruce, Dorner, Baille,Gordon Clark, Chas Hodge, or Wayne Grudem on the matter? They universally reject your assertion!
Might you give then a look???
Have you , by chance, read Leo, Gregory of Nyssa, Tertullian, Agatho, Constantinople 681, Theodore, Theodoret, John of Damascus, Chemnitz, Calvin, Shedd, Wiley, BB Warfield, AB Bruce, Dorner, Baille,Gordon Clark, Chas Hodge, or Wayne Grudem on the matter? They universally reject your assertion!
Might you give then a look???
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Jesus is unified within Himself, there are the twin natures, but just One jesus now, so he is boith God and man at same time, so no I will be acting out of human side, and later on God side, as they are linked as one right now in Him...
Did they not teach that Jesus was not two natures, but one unified person? They were not merged, but he is till one is his understanding of Himself?
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Yes they agree: one in Person, two in natures, AND EACH NATURE wills, acts, & knows in distinction from the other. Kindly show they did not teach that.
Have you read any of these on the matter??? Yes/no?
His humanity was indeed limited but that because He had so willed it.
Philippians 2
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
It was not the Father or the Spirit who made Him of no reputation but he made himself of no reputation.
HankD
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I agree that His humanity was limited, but not His deity. IMO, as Calvin states, the doctrine that Christ gave up the use of the divine attributes is an absurdity.(Institutes 2:13:4.
Or as Fee avers, 'The Son gave up nothing!!! "Philippians, 210.)
The text does not require that: and correct theology does not allow it (IMO):
(1) harpagmos as a predicate accusative when occuring with a verb as"consider" means He did not use what He had (equality) for self-advancement--not that He gave it up (Hoover, The Hapagmos Enigma),
(2) Greek speaking fathers as Chrysostom, Leo, and Athanasius attribute equality to the Son in this text,
(3) having the morphe of God requires having equality with God,eg, Frame, The Doctrine of God, 25. As Lightfoot maintains, if He gave up equality, He gave up deity.(Philippians, 111)
(4) as as "did not grasp" is emphatic, the infinitive which follows refers back to "form of God" Fee, 207) and Wright demonstates that the same point (Meaning ofPhilippians 2:5-11. 101).
IMO, all the humbling of Christ occurs only in His humanity.
I was taught that the Lord Jesus Christ is God as if He were not man, and Man as if He were not God.
I think a good example of that is in the Stilling of the Storm (Mark 4:35-14 etc.). Jesus is tired and needs to rest (v.38). God does not need to rest (Isaiah 40:28), but Jesus does because He is a Man, as if He were not God. Then the disciples come to Him in a panic because of the storm. He gets up and rebukes the wind and the waves (v.39). He does not pray to God to still the storm, He does it Himself. A man could not do that (successfully!), but Jesus could; He was God as if He were not man.
As God, the Lord Jesus knows all things (John 21:17); as Man, there are some things He doesn't know (Mark 13:32). Yet the two natures are in perfect harmony: He does not contradict Himself or fall out with Himself.
Exactly how this works I don't know; I'm just quoting Scripture to you. I liked Hank's post above. No doubt you will explain it to us in due course, you being a professor and all!
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I believe that Hoover's understanding is that a harpagmos is something held to one's advantage (Like a Get out of jail free card when playing Monopoly!). The Lord Jesus did not consider equality with God something to be held onto to His advantage, but made Himself nothing........
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I think I agree!
I'm glad to see members here promoting historic, orthodox Christology! I joined this board over 5 years ago, as I saw many adhere to an unorthodox kenosis, and I attempted to steer them straight. FTR, [Statement edited after consulting with the poster] I'm a self-studying layman, with concern for proper Christology.
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The idea of one nature or two natures in the Christ is almost mind-boggling to take him let alone understand. I think all of us would agree to be truly human he had to have a human nature and somehow in the process he shared his room ready to come to earth. This brings up two questions if it was the power of God that rules him from the grave Isaac says in the beginning of Romans this illustrates that his human nature died and the other rose him from the grave. This whole concept is kind of nebulous. I remember when the late R B thieme told the story of why he was deprived of his PhD at Dallas because he held to the position that he had to die totally human nature and the divine nature. They offered him a degree if he would just say that argument for another day. He would not and he remained the master of the theology. I will give him he was very good biblical languages but maybe being deprived of the degree is were too much Greek gets one