An Interesting Post Against Eternal Security

[Craigbythesea]

But look at who the passage and book is addressed to.

The idea of the perfect participle is that the time is antecedent to the time of the leading verb with the emphasis upon the existing result. The state that has resulted from that past action will be contemporaneous with the leading verb. In this case the time goes from the past and continues into the present with the emphasis upon the existing result. So they are saved from past tense until now resulting in a place reserved in heaven from past until now. The idea being it is secured forever awaiting our salavation.

This is totally absurd! Nothing but mumbo-jumbo!

3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4. to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
5. who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

The Greek word translated “reserved” in verse 4 is a present participle in the passive voice. This means that the reservation has been made and is currently in place. Christians have an inheritance that has been reserved for them (hence the passive voice). Personally, I do not see here any mention of chains or even handcuffs, let alone prison guards to escort us to heaven against our will. Whether or not we ultimately claim the inheritance is up to us. There is no force or coercion, but a loving invitation.

If this passage of Scripture even so much as hints at the doctrine of eternal security, don’t you think that at least someone would have noticed that before 1500 years had passed by? If the entire church was wrong about eternal security for 1500 years, what makes you think that any Christians have it right now? And if the entire church was wrong about something so important for 1500 years, what makes you think that Christians today are right about anything? Anyone who argues that the doctrine of salvation was not understood for 1500 years is opening such a huge can of worms that it places in question EVERYTHING that Christians believe in today. If there ever was a doctrine from the pit of hell, this is it.

 

[Craigbythesea]

I have a very close friend who spent about 26 years in Ehtiopia as a missionary. Much of it was under communist rule. I asked him recently if the theology of losing your salvation was ever an issue while he was there. He told me it was never an issue; it is an American theology.

"An American theology"

That is a good one ! I have never heard that argument before !

Apparently your missionary friend has never read the writings of the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers who, over and over again, expressly taught the Biblical, historical doctrine of conditional security (none of them were Americans). And apparently he has very selectively read the writings by our European brothers. And of course by American he would have to include North, Central, and South America because almost every Christian in Central and South America believes in conditional security (There are not very many Baptists or Presbyterians down there). And he apparently does not speak the Australian language , let alone any Asian languages.

Absolutely the most foolish and ignorant argument imaginable!

 

[Craigbythesea]

I just finished do a little checking of statistics and found that there are 2.6 million Pentecostal Christians in Ethiopia (Pentecostals believe in conditional security).

This figure, of course, does not include the Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists, Church of the Nazarene, etc.

An “American theology?” Hogwash!

 

[Craigbythesea]

As I posted in a message above, to those who teach the doctrine of eternal security, the facts are irrelevant!

 

[Craigbythesea]

A 10,000-seat Assembly of God Church in Ethiopia

Addis Ababa, Ethiopia

Both Addis Bible College, with 122 students, and Assemblies of God Christian Center, with more than 8,000 members, have outgrown their facilities in downtown Addis Ababa. To help provide more space, the Assemblies of God of Ethiopia is pursuing a government grant of 12.5 acres and a major construction project. The U.S. Assemblies of God Foreign Missions has initiated a capital campaign to raise from $6 to $8 million for the construction of a Bible school, 10,000-seat church and a care center. Already, more than $4 million has been pledged by 29 donors. Surely, God's hand is with us.

The Assemblies of God very strongly teaches conditional security, but as I wrote above, the facts are irrelevant to those who choose to disbelieve the truth.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Criagbythesea,

I give you in my heart, I am 100% support agree with your beliefs about conditional salvation. You did the right thing what you saying accroding to God's Word says so.

For many years I used to believe in security salvation while I am baptist. I thought it is a true doctrine. Often, I hear baptists always saying, "I am Bible believer"-because they use KJV, obivously, some of them are KJVO. Also, I hear baptists often saying, "I am fundmentalist." Fundamental means have a strong foundation and support 100% base on all scriptures of the doctrines.

Through many years, I thought independent fundamental baptist doctrine is always right and truth. Till in year 1992, I was shocked that ifb does not interpreting verses correctly. For example, friends showed me of Matt. 24:29-31; & 2 Thess 2:1-3. I was shocked of Matt. 24:29-31, and 2 Thess 2:1-3 both are conflict with ifb's teaching on pretrib rapture. I decided to follow what God's Word saying instead what men saying according to Col. 2:8.

During that year 1992, I was only believed two things that Christians might lose their salvation: taking the mark of the beast - Revelation chapter 13 & Rev. 14:9-11; and if anyone take words out of God's Word - Rev. 22:19, then shall take person's name out of the book of life. Yet, for the next 11 years since year 1992, I still believe in security salvation, because of no matter how how sins we commited, still we are saved - John 10:28-29.

But, in year 2000, Matt. 25:14-30 bother me the mostly about security salvation.

Last year, I have been studying verses in the Bible on salvation doctrine so deep. These verses convinced me, that teaching us, there are conditional salvation, because of many words' "IF".

I did ordered book - 'Believer's Conditional Salvation' by Dan Corner last year. I did reading through whole 801 pages of that book. It is very excellent. I highly recommend everyone of you to read that book. You ought to read and be realize what God's Word saying. That book with verses mostly are not from KJV. But, my mind open, while reading that book use with verses, I always looking in my Bible - KJV. I understand very clear what KJV saying about conditional salvation. I agree with that book.

I understand of John 6:39, what it talks about. It does not prove it is security salvation. It speaks of Christ have power to saved them, and He shall never fail them. Christ is an omnipotent means, He have all power.

Christ never, never fail us as He hold us in his hand - John 10:28-29.

But, we can fail Christ, IF we turn away from Him, and He might looses us out of his hand, IF we stopped listening and follow Christ - John 10:27-29.

How about 1 John 5:13? IFB always use that verse to prove of assurance salvation, even use for security salvation also.

Understand, the word, 'know', it speaks of our relationship with Christ. Notice often in the three epsitles of John, it speak throughout about our relationship with Christ. I believe the key verse of the epsitles of John is in 1 John 1:3 is "that ye also may have fellowship..." It often telling us, we ought to walk with God everyday in our life.

That is how 1 John 5:13 tells us, that we may know that ye have eternal life - IF you continue fellwoship with Christ faithfully.

I show you an example on the word, 'know' with verses: Christ will saying to them, "I NEVER knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." - Matt. 7:23. Does that mean, Christ do not know all people of world's 6 billion population? No. Christ is an omniscience, it means He knows EVERYTHING. Christ's point of Matt. 7:23 talks about Christ does not have relationship with them, because they are doing wicked, without repent.

Another verse speak of the word, 'know': Christ shall saying to them: "Verily I say unto you, I know you not."

Does that mean Christ do not know them, who are the five foolish virgins? No. Christ actually KNOW them all. Christ's point is, the five foolish virgins' oil are empty, their lamps are out, show that they have NO relationship with Christ throughout their life. Christ tells us, that we must keep the light shine all the time according to Luke 11:33-36. Light represents to us, that we should walk godly and holy separate from the dark-wicked and sinful.

If, we do not walk in the light, and remain in the dark till by the time Christ arrives, He shall find us sleep and remain in the dark, then He shall saying to us, "I know you NOT", then cast us in the lake of fire.

Bible commands us, that we ought to walk in the light, not be in the dark, because Christ shall come like as theif in the night, we should NOT in the thief according to 1 Thess. 5:2-6 and Rev. 3:2-3.

What would happen to a person being caught in the thief? Catch person who is REMAIN in the dark - sinful life without have repent of sins, will be end up by cast into the lake of fire.

Will a Christian being into thief? YES, IF a Christian stopped being watch and not preparing for Christ's coming, shall be catch by thief, and take Christian into the everlasting fire.

Obivously, there are so much overwhelming evidences find in the Bible teaching on conditional salavtion. You cannot find a single verse in the Bible telling us of unconditional salvation.

Criagbythesea, KEEP IT UP!!!! You doing fine!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Kiffin]

The modern day terminology of “Once Saved Always Saved” lacks balance and makes the cross cheap. Like a GET OUT OF HELL FREE card that gives one freedom to sin with no consequences. The worst book I ever read on it was Charles Stanley's book on Eternal Security. It explains away scriptures that teach perseverance.

Conditional Security has it's problems also. The Classical Arminian view that one can stop having faith in Jesus while probably not as bad as the OSAS Cheap Salvation, still contradicts the Scriptural view of Election and numerous other scriptures that teach Salvation is permanent


The more balanced and Biblical view is the Reformed view that teaches Perserverance and Preservation of the Saints. Believers endure and persevere in the faith and are preserved and remain eternally secure in Christ. Those who do not persevere are mere professors.


New Hampshire Baptist Confession 1833
We believe that such only are real believers as endure unto the end; that their persevering attachment to Christ is the grand mark which distinguishes them from superficial professors; that a special Providence watches over their welfare; and they are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation

I just finished do a little checking of statistics and found that there are 2.6 million Pentecostal Christians in Ethiopia (Pentecostals believe in conditional security).

This figure, of course, does not include the Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists, Church of the Nazarene, etc.

Are those Pentecostals or Charismatics? (Believe me, there is a differance!) Charismatics are more diverse on this teaching that Classical Pentecostals. You are correct on Methodists and Nazarenes BUT Anglicans are more diverse. There are many Anglicans who are Reformed (Calvinistic) in their Theology and the 39 Articles of Religion of the Church of England is "calvinistic" (not necessarily 5 point though) AND the Lutheran View of Conditional Salvation is very differant from the Classical Arminian view.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Kiffin,

You say:

Conditional Security has it's problem also. The Classical Arminian view that one can stop having faith in Jesus while probably not as bad as the OSAS cheap Salvation, still contradicts the scriptual view of Election and numerous other scriptures that teach Salvation is permanent

Please give us the exmaples of verses to show us that the conditional security doctrine have problem?

New Hamsphire Baptist Confession is part of Calvinism. Most of reformers are Calvinists. That statement was made offically more than 200 years later after John Clavin developed of his teaching.

Calvimists and OSAS people argued: 'They are not saved in the FIRST PLACE.'

Wrong.

Luke 8:13 tells us, "They on the rock are they that HEAR, RECEIVE the word with [/B]JOY[/B]; and these have no root, which for a WHILE BELIEVE, and in time of temptation FALL AWAY."

It tells us, these people who ALREADY hear the gospel, and did believed on it with joy. Yes, they were saved in the first place, they did believing in Christbut for a short time, when the trials come upon them, then they fall away.

1 John 2:19 says, "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for IF they had been of us, they would no doubt have CONTINUED with us: but THEY WENT OUT, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

It tells us, they were with John's group in the FIRST PLACE. IF they were continuing with them, they could had been with them IF they continuing with them, BUT, John tells us, they were already went OUT away from John's group - astray away or turn away.

1 John 2:24 says: "Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have HEARD FROM the BEGINNING. IF that which ye have heard from the beginning SHALL REMAIN in you, ye also SHALL CONTINUE in the Son, and in the Father."

It tells us, when we heard the gospel of salvation in the first place, we SHOULD be continue and abide in Christ.

Heb. 3:14 tells us, IF we HOLD the beginning of our confidence steadfast UNTO THE END." It tells us, we must hold it when after we first hear the gospel of salvation(beginning), we must endure in Christ all the way to the end according to Matt. 10:22; & Matt. 24:13.

Luke 8:13 tells us very clear, people who already heard the gospel and believed in Jesus Christ in the first place, did repented of sins, and walked in Christ for a short time, then when the trials come upon them, they fall away. Obivoysly, they were saved in the first place same with Luke chapter 15 of prodigal son.

Also in Ezekiel 33:18 warns us very clear: "When the righteous turneth FROM his righteousness, and commitheth iniquity, he shall EVEN DIE THEREBY."

It tells us, a person was a righteous or just in the first place BEFORE turn away into wicked, shall bring forth to death(spiritual death).

Obivously, the Bible does not teaching us of the persevrance of the saints or security salvation . There are so much overwhelming evidences in the Bible teaching us of conditional salvation, no way you can deny what God's Word saying so.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[James_Newman]

The problem with Conditional Security is that it makes Jesus Christ out to be a huckster, and the gospel becomes a pyramid scheme. The parable of the sower is not about eternal salvation, it's talking about the kingdom.

 

[Kiffin]

Hi DeafPost Trib

Please give us the exmaples of verses to show us that the conditional security doctrine have problem?

There have been many quoted already such as John 6:38-40 and John 10:27-29. "They shall never perish" (John 10:28). The Amplified Bible which CBD publishers ranks as the most literal translation translates this And I give them eternal life, and they shall never lose it or perish throughout the ages. [To all eternity they shall never by any means be destroyed.] And no one is able to snatch them out of My hand.

Ephesians 1:13, 4:30 speaks of our salvation as being sealed. The Doctrine of Predestination, Election also pose problems for Conditional Salvation.

Revelation 13
8All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Concerning the Beast of Revelation ALL whose names were not written in in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. worship the Beast but not those that are in the Book of Life. The reason they worship the Beast is their names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, (Rev. 17:8. This tells us that the elect's names were written in the Book of Life before the foundation of the world, that they will eventually be converted to Christ and endure to the end.

Another problem with Classical Arminian theology's view of conditional Salvation in that much like some OSAS teachers, it teaches while it God justifies and glorifies the saved, He may be frustrated in sanctification and implies that sanctification is the work of man though Scripture is clear sanctification is the work of God in the redeemed (Eph. 2:10).

New Hamsphire Baptist Confession is part of Calvinism. Most of reformers are Calvinists. That statement was made offically more than 200 years later after John Clavin developed of his teaching.

And you talk like that is a bad thing.

Calvimists and OSAS people argued: 'They are not saved in the FIRST PLACE.'

Actually you are incorrect. OSAS as taught by many does not teach perseverance. Read Charles Stanley, Zane Hodges or Charles Ryrie. Modern day OSAS teachings seems to have it's roots in Karl Barth's theology than Calvin.

Luke 8:13 tells us, "They on the rock are they that HEAR, RECEIVE the word with JOY; and these have no root, which for a WHILE BELIEVE, and in time of temptation FALL AWAY."

It tells us, these people who ALREADY hear the gospel, and did believed on it with joy. Yes, they were saved in the first place, they did believing in Christ but for a short time, when the trials come upon them, then they fall away.

Note that it says they received it with joy but they believe for awhile BUT Why do they BELIEVE for awhile? THEY HAVE NO ROOT. Believe in context is speak of a nominal belief that is not Saving faith but a superficial belief and in vs. 15

Jesus states about another group "But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance. These are the ones that

1. Heard the word in an honest and good heart
2. Hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.

These are true Believers and it reminds me of the BF@M of the SBC.

Baptist Faith and Message 2000
All true believers endure to the end. Those whom God has accepted in Christ, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never fall away from the state of grace, but shall persevere to the end. Believers may fall into sin through neglect and temptation, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, and bring reproach on the cause of Christ and temporal judgments on themselves; yet they shall be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.

1 John 2:19 says, "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for IF they had been of us, they would no doubt have CONTINUED with us: but THEY WENT OUT, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

It tells us, they were with John's group in the FIRST PLACE. IF they were continuing with them, they could had been with them IF they continuing with them, BUT, John tells us, they were already went OUT away from John's group - astray away or turn away.

Actually it tells us the REASON they left and abandoned Christ and the Church was because they were not all of us. In other words they were mere professors of Christ but not Christians.

1 John 2:24 says: "Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have HEARD FROM the BEGINNING. IF that which ye have heard from the beginning SHALL REMAIN in you, ye also SHALL CONTINUE in the Son, and in the Father."

It tells us, when we heard the gospel of salvation in the first place, we SHOULD be continue and abide in Christ.

I believe in Perseverance of the Saints. Only those who Persevere to the end will be saved (Mt. 24:11-13). As John states . If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son (NASB). If the truth of the Gospel abides in a person he or she will also abide in the Son.

Heb. 3:14 tells us, IF we HOLD the beginning of our confidence steadfast UNTO THE END." It tells us, we must hold it when after we first hear the gospel of salvation(beginning), we must endure in Christ all the way to the end according to Matt. 10:22; & Matt. 24:13.

Actually I agree. The main conflict between Classical Arminian Perseverance and Calvinist Perserverance is not over Enduring to the End it is over whether those onced saved will endure to the End. Calvinists affirm that those onced saved will endure to the End while Arminians do not believe all the saved will endure. You took Hebrews 3;14 out of context. Read the entire verse. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end, Perseverance in faithfulness is proof of real faith.

Also in Ezekiel 33:18 warns us very clear: "When the righteous turneth FROM his righteousness, and commitheth iniquity, he shall EVEN DIE THEREBY."

It tells us, a person was a righteous or just in the first place BEFORE turn away into wicked, shall bring forth to death(spiritual death).

Eziekiel 33 is not addressing our debate nor is it speaking of spiritual death but of physical death on disobedient Israelies. The terms Rightoues and Wicked in the context of Eziekiel 33 are not terms speaking of one's position before God in a theological sense but the manner of behavior of the Israelies. Actually it is a warning to Israel concerning the Fall of Jerusalm to the Babylonians .

The problem with both Conditional Salvation and Modern day OSAS is lack of balance.

Conditional Salvation theologians rightly emphasize Perseverance and Enduring to the End BUT wrongly add to that, not all those saved will endure.

OSAS theologians (of the Charles Stanley, Zane Hodges, Charles Ryrie, Curtis Hudson type) rightly emphasize the Unconditional Eternal Security of Believers BUT wrongly add to that, not all Christians endure to the end.

The Reformed Doctrine of Preservation and Perseverance of the all the Saints is the balance view and avoids the extremes of Classical Arminian and OSAS theology.

God bless

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Let me put it another way. If I claimed I knew you, how can I say you no longer exist?

How many times am I going to be asked to address this question? You may believe that you know me, but upon learning more about me, you may learn that in fact I am a fictional character.

</font>[/QUOTE]That is not at all a relevant thought. Because when one deals with God there is no such thing as a fictional character. God is absolute, not a relative condition or a image in our mind but rather a real person. You either know God or you don’t.

How do I know you are a believer? How do I know it is not a fictional thought. If not then how can you cannot declare yourself as a Christian when being a Christian is a condition that may be removed at any time. How can you declare yourself a believer or even a Christian when you don’t know if your belief is real or if you will ever have salvation. Why do you think the new believers were baptized in the midst of a situation which meant they could have been executed? Do you think they believed they were going to heaven or in a conditional security they knew nothing about? If they believed then our belief is in vain.

I have known my daughter ever since she was born and I am knowing more about her as she lives. So it is with God. Someone can know all about God and never really know Him. For someone to believe that God cannot secure salvation in Jesus Christ for the believer is to castigate God and count what he says as foolishness. You do know what the world says about the gospel in 2 Cor.--foolishness.

The writer of John in John 10:27-30 refutes the issue of conditional security.

If you believe in conditional security how many times a day do you lose your salvation? If you do believe in conditional security then you must believe that even the littlest sin violates the condition. Every sin is a separation from God.

You never addressed the question I posed earlier. Was Peter saved when he denied Christ three times?

The word tethrhmevnhn (reserved) in 1 Peter 1:4 is not a present passive participle. Look again! It is a Perfect Passive Participle Feminine Singular Accusative. I have not seen any Greek text that deviates from that word.

So if you believe in conditional security when is the condition satisfied and when is it broken? What happens if it is broken? Is it possible to satisfy the condition again and again and again? How many times must the condition be satisfied is a person sins.


Would you tell your children to leave each time they did something wrong and disobeyed you when they have said they love you numerous times and it is clear you love them and they love you. So it is with God.

Paul even addresses the issue of "Shall we sin that grace may abound?" May it never be! That would never be an issue under conditional salvation and election.

If you believe in conditional security then you must believe in a not knowing type of salvation which John refutes in 1 John 5:11-13. If you had Hebrew and you have also read the NT you do know the type of sentence structure that is used--that of Jewish phraseology. So you know what it means when someone in a Jewish culture says they "know." You cannot interpret scripture on the basis of American thoughts and definitions. It must be interested on the basis of the culture of the day.

You mentioned about the Pentecostals in Ethiopia. Did you ever talk with one of them during the time of communist rule? How can one be willing to give his life for Jesus with a “hope so” kind of salvation. If a person never knows how can they be sure? Sounds just like the RCC who keep their people blind and wanting to do more and more to line the pockets of the RCC with indulgences. Why do you think they have purgatory? So people can spend their money to buy people into heaven.

1 John 2:4,5, "The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

Notice the first part of that passage, "The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;” The person who keeps His commandments is the person who possesses the truth. If he thinks he is saved and there is no proof of obedience then he is not saved.

Again I say if someone truly knows God how can he say I never knew Him. The one who knows God is born again and keeps God's commands.

Another question: How can someone who is born again be unborn? Look at John 3.

Now I could see how you might rationalize your idea if you believe the Pharisees were saved at one time. They thought they knew God. But the fact is they were never born again. Look at what Jesus called them. So it is the same with religious folks who are not obedient.

The one who believes will not live a life of practicing sin. He will sin but will not be content to live a life of sin.

My security of salvation is not found in me but in Christ. It is not secured by me nor can it be lost by me.

If nobody is his for sure then according to Heb. 12 why would God discipline those who are His?

[ October 11, 2004, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: gb93433 ]

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I have a very close friend who spent about 26 years in Ehtiopia as a missionary. Much of it was under communist rule. I asked him recently if the theology of losing your salvation was ever an issue while he was there. He told me it was never an issue; it is an American theology.

"An American theology"

That is a good one ! I have never heard that argument before !

Apparently your missionary friend has never read the writings of the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers who, over and over again, expressly taught the Biblical, historical doctrine of conditional security (none of them were Americans). And apparently he has very selectively read the writings by our European brothers. And of course by American he would have to include North, Central, and South America because almost every Christian in Central and South America believes in conditional security (There are not very many Baptists or Presbyterians down there). And he apparently does not speak the Australian language , let alone any Asian languages.

Absolutely the most foolish and ignorant argument imaginable! </font>[/QUOTE]Do you believe everything the early church fathers believed?

Even before the early church fathers were on the scene within just a few years after Jesus left the church began to get off doctrinally. Read the book of James and the letters Paul wrote.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Dear Brother DeafPosttrib

Thank you for your words of encouragement and for sharing you personal testimony

. I very much enjoyed reading your post. You are indeed a precious brother in Christ

.

I do not have the time to do so now, but perhaps tonight I will share my testimony with you.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Are those Pentecostals or Charismatics? (Believe me, there is a differance!) Charismatics are more diverse on this teaching that Classical Pentecostals. You are correct on Methodists and Nazarenes BUT Anglicans are more diverse. There are many Anglicans who are Reformed (Calvinistic) in their Theology and the 39 Articles of Religion of the Church of England is "calvinistic" (not necessarily 5 point though) AND the Lutheran View of Conditional Salvation is very differant from the Classical Arminian view.

Dear Brother Kiffin,

You are very much correct that “Charismatic” does not necessarily mean Pentecostal. However, the figure of 2.6 million refers to those who are active in Pentecostal Churches in Ethiopia, mostly the Assemblies of God and the Church of God, Cleveland Tennessee. You are also very much correct regarding the diversity of Anglicans. As for the Lutherans, we need to explore your comment. My point, however, that the doctrine of conditional security is NOT an American doctrine is not refuted by your post, but substantiated by it.

I perceive that you are a Christian brother with a sound mind and a substantial knowledge of the facts, as well as a good knowledge and understanding of theology. However, I believe that the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints is a very unscriptural and dangerous doctrine. I do not have the time now, but perhaps tonight I will address your post regarding this doctrine in more detail.

Thanking for posting in an informative and Christian manner.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:

For many years I used to believe in security salvation while I am baptist. I thought it is a true doctrine. Often, I hear baptists always saying, "I am Bible believer"-because they use KJV, obivously, some of them are KJVO. Also, I hear baptists often saying, "I am fundmentalist." Fundamental means have a strong foundation and support 100% base on all scriptures of the doctrines.

But, in year 2000, Matt. 25:14-30 bother me the mostly about security salvation.

Take a look at Mt. 7:21-23, "Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'

I have pastored long enough to know thay Satan is present in a number of our chruches and he would like to steal, kill and destroy. I have also seen strange things happen when we try to God's work.

How do you explain the verse that says the rightous fall seven times and rise again?

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Good Afternoon

Kiffin,

I have no problem with John 10:27-29. Often OSAS(Ifb pastors) & Calvinists always emphasis on John 10:28-29 that no one shall take us away from Christ's hand of salvation, prove it is security salvation. I love John 10:28-29. It is beautiful and promise. John 10:28-29 speak of these WHO hear and FOLLOW Christ - John 10:27. John 10:27-29 promises us, any person who hear and follow Christ shall never pluck person out of His hand. OR.... what if person does not obey and follow Christ, Christ might loose person out of his hand.

I love that old, old famous song - "We decide to follow Christ". Often, in the church, we sing that song, and saying, "We decided to follow Christ, we decide follow Christ, NO turn back, we decide follow Christ, no person join with me, yet, I decide follow Christ, NO turn back..." That song is a fundmental and sound doctrine from the Bible. 'No turn back' find in Luke 9:62: "And Jesus said unto him, 'No man having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God."

Suppose, you are a farmer, you sowing seeds in the crop field, and to plowing it forward ahead straight all the way, what if suppose wolf walking across the crop for going to eat the sheeps, you might turn it out of the track and turn into MESS UP while you focus on wolf instead of doing plowing. No way you can turning it backward, keep it go ahead forward straight, so, the seeds would growing well.

Same as Christ tells us of Lot's wife - "Remember Lot's wife." - Luke 17:32. When the two angels were at Lot's house in Sodom. They gave instruction to Lot and his family, when flee into the wilderness, DO NOT looking back toward Sodom, or will be destruction - Genesis 19:17: "Escape for thy life; look NOT behind thee; escape to the mountian, lest thou be CONSUMED." They warned Lot and his family, do not looking back toward Sodom, or might be destroyed or destruction. What's happened to Lot's wife? Gen. 19:26 says: "But his wife LOOKED BACK from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt."

Lot's wife could have obeyed angels' warning, and be saved. But, she disobeyed angels' warning. The result of her death she already doomed in hell.

Obivously, there is conditional salvation.

OSAS teachers always emphasis on Eph. 1:13 & 4:30 prove us it is security salvation doctrine.

'Sealed' does not mean it is guaranted or offically already saved at once. Eph. 4:30 says, "And grieved not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed UNTO the day of redemption."

It tells us, the Holy Spirit is being sealed in believer's body TILL the day of redemption.

What's 'the day of redemption' stands for? It speaks of the second coming according to Luke 21:28.

Right now we are 'engaged' with the Holy Spirit, but we are not yet offically marry to Jesus Christ(Revelation chapter 19). Please look to 1 Corinthians 5:5 says, "To deliver such as one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit MAY BE saved in the DAY OF THE LOD JESUS."
It tells us, we are not yet offically already saved at once at the moment after we believed and accept Christ at salvation. We are in the spiritual warfare throughout our life till our death or Christ comes. We must hold of our hope is eternal life at Lord's coming - Colossians 1:23; Titus 2:13; and Hebrews 3:6.


Right now, we are still being 'engaged' with the Holy Spirit, as He is sealed in us. Because we not yet receive immortality body (1 Cor. 15:51-54). We must hold and endure all the way to the end, THEN shall be saved. When Christ comes, anyone who remain stay and steadfast with their faith of their hope, they shall be all changed into immortality, and they all shall be 'marry' to Jesus Christ - Revelation chapter 19.

Holy Spirit could leave person, IF a person stopped believing and turn away, deliver person unto Satan (1 Tim. 1:20; 1 Tim. 5:15) Same as prodigal son of Luke chapter 15.

Rev. 13:8 tells us, anyone who will worship the beast, their names are not find written in the book of life, will be cast into the lake of fire. God already know the future, who will worship the beast, their names which is not find written in teh book of life BEFORE creation.

You say,

Rev. 17:8, This tells us that, the elect's name were written in the Book of Life before the foundation of the world, that they will eventually be converted to Christ and endure to the end.

I agree with Rev. 17:8. God is an omniscience. He knows everything and future. God already know who will be saved or not saved by in the result of their action of life. Book of Life does not make it looks mess if their names are being erased or rewritten. God already know us, which two roads we are ahead throughout our lifetime BEFORE creation.

Matt. 24:24 warns us, Satan's works, miracles, and signs MIGHT decived the very elect.

2 Peter 1:10 says: "Wherefore the rather, brethren, gave diligence to MAKE SURE your calling and election sure: for IF ye DO these things, ye shall never fall:"

Christ tells us, many were called, but FEW are chosen. Why? Because most of them who were called out from the darkness into the light, already turned away from the Lord, most are not chosen, that is the result of them being end up in the destruction - Matt. 7:13-14 & Luke 13:24.

Luke 8:13 - 'they have no root'.

The reason that they have no root, because they not yet developing their fruits and knowledde of Christ, do not KEEP it, and bring forth fruit with patience(vs. 15).

We can judge their fruits, to see if they are truly saved or not saved (Matt. 7:16-20).

Bible commanded us, that we ought to carry the fruits and abide in Christ according to John chapter 15, OR we might be cut off (Romans 11:19-23).

Luke 8:15 tells us, anyone who is in the good ground, which have an HONEST and GOOD HEART, havING heard the word, KEEP IT and BRING forth fruit with patience."

In fact, most people who claim, they are saved, and did repented of their sins, and did walked in the Lord but for a short time, then they turn away, because they do not obey Christ's commandment(John 14:15), and they did not carry the fruits (Gal. 5:18-25), remain in their wicked, will not enter eternal life.

Baptist Faith and Message 2000- "...will NEVER fall away from the state of grace...yet they shall be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.". I know of this passage says, 'kept by the power of God...' find in 1 Peter 1:5. Notice it says, 'through faith', clear, it is conditional salvation. Romans 11:20-22 say, "Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou STANDEST by faith. Be not high -minded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF thou CONTINUE in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."

It tells us, we must abide in our faith walk with God daily, or if we stopped believing in Christ, we might be cut off. Same as what God has done with natural Israel in the Old Testament and during 40 years in the wilderness under Moses.

You speak of 1 John 2:19:

In other words they were mere professors of Chrusr but not Christians

That is not what Apostle John actually saying. You just intepreting in your own view. It clearly telling us, they WERE with John and his group in the first place before they turn away. They were Christians while they were with John, but afterward, they turn away, they are not Christians.

The truly defintion of 'Christians' means a person who is seriously made determine to follow Christ all the way to the end is a truly Christian. OR... a person who decide stopped to follow Christ is not a truly Christian according to Luke 14:26-27.

You took Hebrews 3:14 out of the context

Out of its' context?

It tells us, For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we HOLD the beginning of our confidence STEADFAST UNTO THE END. It promises us, that we are Christ's partakers IF we hold with out faith and hope of salvation till the end same as Matt. 10:22; & Matt. 24:13. OR, if we do not hold and endure by the end we die or Christ comes, then we shall not be saved.

Notice are are lot of words, "IF's in the Bible speak of conditional. You cannot deny these verses speak of 'If's' are conditional.

Throughout in the Bible teaching us lof of conditional salvation, these are so overwhelming to me. I do not see any verse in the bible teaching of unconditional salvation. Because there are lot of 'IF's' in them.

Ezekiel 33 is not addressing our debate nor is it speaking of spiritual death but of PHYSICAL death on disobedient Israelites

This is type of dispensationalism doctrine.

Yes, you are right, Ezekiel, the prophet warned to people of Israel(physical nation), warned them, that God will punish them, if they do not repent of their sins. But, Ezekiel chapter 33 does apply to us as individual either Jew or Gentile about warning to our spiritual.

Book of Ezekiel shows much of overwhelm teaching on conditoinal salvation. Most dispensationalists & OSAS people are aware of the book of Ezekiel speak lot of conditional with warnings. Yet, they saying, these are apply to the Old Testament saints, these who were saved by faith PLUS obey, keep the laws. They saying, right now, we are not under the conditional salvation, because of Christ already paid all our sins through cross at once. And we are saved by the faith through grace, not of works.

Actually, throughout whole Bible teaching us the same plan of salvation. All saints throughout all ages were by their faith by in their actions(Romans 1:17; and Hebrews chapter 11). We do not keep the laws such as 400 laws as what the Pharisees follow them in the order for salvation, also, we do not saved by our OWN good works trying to enter into heaven in our own ways. We are saved by the faith through Jesus, while we FOLLOW Christ all the way to the end.

I show you other verse does have refer with Ezekiel 33:9 "Nevertheless IF thou warn the wicked of his way to TURN FROM(repent) IT; IF he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thiu hast DELIVERED thy soul." find in James 5:19-20 say: "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; LET HIM KNOW, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall SAVE a soul from death, and shall hide a multutude of sins."

Obivously, Ezekiel chapter 33 speaks to us, that we are responsible to warning to every person, we are responsible to deliver their soul from death(spiritual). If we failed to warning them, we allow them on the way to hell.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

gb93433,

I have no problem with Matt. 7:21-23. I use King James Version of Matt. 7:21-23(remind you, that, I am NOT KJVO. I prefer to use KJV than all oversions, because KJV is more close to Greek than any versions). Anyway in Matt 7:23 KJV says, "And then will profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work INIQUITY."

Iniquity means wicked, sinful.

There are facts, religions in America, they do good works and serve for the Lord faithfully. But they do not repent of this sins. Same with Pharisees, they did obey God, and keep the laws and do good works. BUT, they did not repent of their sins.

Rev. 2:2-4 telling us, Christ told to the church of Ephesus, that He knew their works, they did doing good works, and did serve to Christ faithfully, But, he told them, that he against them, because they LEFT FROM THEIR FIRST LOVE. It speaks of not having relationship with Christ, and remain in sins without sins.

That why lot of religions are on the way to hell because of their self-righteousness without repent toward Christ. Even baptists are doing it also, sorry to saying that.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:


That why lot of religions are on the way to hell because of their self-righteousness without repent toward Christ. Even baptists are doing it also, sorry to saying that.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

You are absolutely right! I have seen it first hand. We are all accountable to the same Lord and God.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

I agree with criagbythesea,

he saying Conditional Security is not America's doctrine. Also, he saying, the doctrine of 'Perservance of the Saints' is a dangerous.

Yes, I agree with him.

There are so lot of baptists in America. In fact, I learned that baptists is the second largest religion in America behind only to Catholic. There are over 35 millions of baptists in America today.

What about Catholics' doctrine? Does Catholic teaching on unconditonal salvation partially? Yes, they teach that an infant baby must be saved by having water baptism. If an infnat baby does not taking water baptism, baby cannot be forgiven, will go to hell. Catholic and Lutheran both are almost same. Not only Catholic do practical infant water baptism, alos MANY religions in America are doing the same thing. Even, Church of Christ doing it also.

I strongly opposite of infant water baptism & Church of Christ's teaching on baptism.

Being baptized into water cannot saved us. It represents that we are being identify with Christ as we obey him right after we repented of our sins.

Being baptized does not guaranted that a person being offically already saved and forgiven.

Many people who were baptized, already turn away from the Lord, they are lost again.

And I agree with him.

OSAS and Reformed churches in America teaching either 'security salvation' or 'perservance of the saints' are very popular and growing so fast.

Notice there are the only three religions in America having strong evangelical movement - Jehovah Witness, Mormons and BAPTISTS too.

I am not against evangelical. Matt. 28:19-20; Mark 16:15; and Acts 1:8 are very clearly commanded us go preach the gospel to every persons need salvation.

I notice many baptists doing their soul winning method by use "Easy Believism". The lack thing that they did not telling to people about repent. That why people being claim they are Christians, because of 'believed' in Jesus Christ.

I do not agree with baptist churches about the competition each others about the numbers of souls saved and baptized. I dislike that church which boasted and cliamed, there were over 15,000 souls saved during single service. I do not buy that story. Yes, that story was a true. But, that is "Easy Believism" method of soul winning. They having the lack thing to witness people is repent.

Also, many baptist churches failed to discipleship baby Christians, that why many baptists allow baby Christians turn away into dark again on the way to destruction. I admit I failed them whilst I used to believe in security salvation for a long time.

The mostly main reason of America's moral values and spiritual decling so fast, result of OSAS. Sorry to saying that.

If suppose I am in sinner's shoe: A baptist witness gospel to me, and saying to me, "No matter, how often you sinning in your life, you still always be saved and going to heaven, because you already accepted Christ into your heart." In my mind, I would saying, "COOOL!!! I am not going to worry about my salvation long as I continue sinning through my life and still going to heaven, because I already accepted Christ into my heart."

That is what the moral values in America is decling so fast. The real revivals are fading away already.

The wicked in America are increasing SO RAPIDLY. I fear that America will not stay longer, Amewrica will be judgment by God - Psalms 9:17.

We need turn back to God, and return to the old time path of hell-preaching and repentance revivals, or too late.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
Good Afternoon

Kiffin,

I have no problem with John 10:27-29. Often OSAS(Ifb pastors) & Calvinists always emphasis on John 10:28-29 that no one shall take us away from Christ's hand of salvation, prove it is security salvation. I love John 10:28-29. It is beautiful and promise. John 10:28-29 speak of these WHO hear and FOLLOW Christ - John 10:27. John 10:27-29 promises us, any person who hear and follow Christ shall never pluck person out of His hand. OR.... what if person does not obey and follow Christ, Christ might loose person out of his hand.

He will loose non-believers. Non-believers are rebellious against God. Believers want God. They don't want to just know about him, but know Him.

I think too often the problem comes when we try to be the judge and we cannot. We cannot say for sure from our point of view who is truly a believer and who is not. The disciples did not know Judas would betray Jesus, but Jesus did.

With some people it is a process and not a point in time when they make a decision to follow Christ. But they know for sure inside. I have never seen people who are walking with God ever doubt their salvation except maybe when they are new believers. Very fast it becomes a non-issue. When I first became a Christian I never thought about losing my salvation until someone brought it up. Then when I heard that I thought to myself, how could anyone lose their salvation? To me it has never been an issue. The only issue I have ever had is walking with God and checking myself to be sure I am headed on the right path.