An Interesting Post Against Eternal Security

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by JackRUS:
DeafPosttrib.

One big problem with your understanding of Luke 15:11-32 is that all of Jesus' parables were directed toward Israel (Mt. 13:10-15. What percentage of Israel at the time of Christ would you say was in the body of Christ?

This error falls under the heading of not rightly dividing the word of truth. Many make the error of directing passages that were directed toward Israel and apply them to believers. Mt. 24 is a prime example.

Prior to his death, almost every word that Jesus spoke was spoken exclusively to Jews, not Christians, but Jews. The Church, the body of Christ, did not yet exist. So do we therefore cut the four Gospels out of the New Testament and paste them into the Old Testament and write them off as Jewish history that is irrelevant to the Church. Personally, I don’t think so.

1. For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea;
2. and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3. and all ate the same spiritual food;
4. and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
5. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
6. Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved.
7. Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, "THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY."
8. Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day.
9. Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents.
10. Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer.
11. Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
12. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.
(1 Cor. 10:1-2, NASB, 1995)

Even in the Old Testament we find a warning to true, born-again, baptized believers in Christ that those who live lives which are not well-pleasing to God may be laid low on this side of the Jordan River and never see the Promised Land. But of course there are many Baptists who will say,

“Hey, man, don’t worry about it. You have been saved and you can never lose your salvation. Paul was the worst of sinners and said so himself. We know that Paul is in heaven, so obviously you will be there too. Besides, if God used the worst of sinners to write a third of the New Testament, just think how much God will use you if you sin as much as Paul did. Hey, man, don’t worry about it! God created sex for your enjoyment and for you to deprive yourself of as much of it as you can possibly get is to show God that you do not appreciate His gift to you. It is a slap in God’s face for you to be legalistic—get out there and start having some fun! Eat, drink, be merry, and have all the sex you can get for tomorrow you will be in heaven and you won’t be able to get any sex there!"

 

[michelle]

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Even in the Old Testament we find a warning to true, born-again, baptized believers in Christ that those who live lives which are not well-pleasing to God may be laid low on this side of the Jordan River and never see the Promised Land. But of course there are many Baptists who will say,
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One basic, and most important FACT that you seem to neglect, is that Pentecost had not yet come. The Holy Spirit did not yet dwell in believers, for Jesus Christ had not yet come. They looked forward to this day. They in faith all went into the bosom of Abraham in paradise, while those who did not, went to Hell. When Jesus died, and rose the third day, He brought with them those in Paradise. From the day of Pentecost on, all who had FAITH in the Son of God recieved the Holy Spirit, yes, even until this day. Two completely different circumstances, that you are neglecting to recognize.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Craigbythesea]

One basic, and most important FACT that you seem to neglect, is that Pentecost had not yet come. The Holy Spirit did not yet dwell in believers, for Jesus Christ had not yet come. They looked forward to this day. They in faith all went into the bosom of Abraham in paradise, while those who did not, went to Hell. When Jesus died, and rose the third day, He brought with them those in Paradise. From the day of Pentecost on, all who had FAITH in the Son of God recieved the Holy Spirit, yes, even until this day. Two completely different circumstances, that you are neglecting to recognize.

I am not neglecting any facts. The warning in 1 Cor. 10 is a warning to the Church more than 20 years after Pentecost. Those who fell in the wilderness because of their unbelief subsequent to their redemption and their baptism in the Red Sea did NOT go to the bosom of Abraham; they went to the pit of hell! Joshua and Caleb went to the bosom of Abraham; those who refused to cross the Jordan River and enter the promised land because they refused to trust in God were not dragged across the River by God, but found the same fate in eternity as the Egyptians did when they tried to cross the Red Sea.

The wages of sin is death, and refusing to believe in and trust in God is a damnable sin.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

The parables are NOT always direct toward Israel. I ask you a question, whose group, Christ taught to? To unbelievers? or believers?

Every parables do apply to us as individuals, not just for Israel only.

You cannot limited parables apply for Israel.

Or, I ask you, why not you tear Luke 11-32 out of the Bible according to Rev. 22:19?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Michelle,

Your view and dispensationalism doctrine on Pentacost Day, its teaches that, the plan of salvation have changed, is a false.

The plan of salvation never change since from the beginning to today. It remain always the same plan.

Even, conditional warnings never change since from the beginning to today.

Hebrews chapter 3 and 4 teaching us, that we must remember what Hebrews did during in the wilderness. These are conditional warnings in Hebrews chapter 3 and 4. Obivously, Hebrews chapter 3 and 4 still apply to us today, and throughout all centuries.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[michelle]

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The wages of sin is death, and refusing to believe in and trust in God is a damnable sin.

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Yes, but they also did NOT HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT, as we who believe DO. There is a BIG DIFFERENCE and this is what you NEGLECT to recognize - the POWER of Christ in the saved believer.


Second, I never said those who disobeyed God went to Hell. What I did say, is that you are neglecting the fact they did not have the HOLY SPIRIT in them, to EMPOWER THEM. My point that they went to the belly of the earth, is because they STILL had not been SAVED by the BLOOD OF THE LAMB. This was something that they had FAITH in, but did not have the ability to REMAIN with the Lord upon their physical death, and what FAITH they had was accounted unto righteousness to them. However, from the time of Jesus until this very day, we saved have the Holy Spirit to dwell in us, and seal us until the day of redemption because of our Faith. THis is what Keeps one in the will of God to HIS GLORY.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[HankD]

However, from the time of Jesus until this very day, we saved have the Holy Spirit to dwell in us, and seal us until the day of redemption because of our Faith. THis is what Keeps one in the will of God to HIS GLORY.

At last michelle I can join you in hearty shout of AMEN!!

Eat, drink, be merry, and have all the sex you can get for tomorrow you will be in heaven and you won’t be able to get any sex there!

Not a problem for me Craig, there is something/someone better than any of these things in heaven: Jesus Christ in HIS GLORY (as michelle has given witness).

HankD

 

[michelle]

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Your view and dispensationalism doctrine on Pentacost Day, its teaches that, the plan of salvation have changed, is a false.

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I have never said the salvation plan changed. In fact I have said the opposite of this.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Paul33]

Unless you speak fluent koine Greek and understand the cultural context of the first century, you're understanding of Greek grammar is just as flawed as mine.

I say this because: the native speaker often times has no "grammatical" clue to the statements he makes. He speaks intuitively and understands readily the conceptual meaning that is being conveyed.

I have yet to see anyone parse or use the historical/grammatical hermeneutic on someone's English letter, etc. Why? We don't need to.

Take the poem, "Jack and Jill." Has any English American ever stopped after the first line and said, "Now, note, the past tense of the verb to be."

To think we can build whole theologies from the tenses of verbs is a little silly. Greek is important, but if I never saw a Greek character, I'd still be able to read and understand my English translation.

Romans 8:29-30 is not difficult to understand. The elect are foreknown, predestined, called, justified, glorified!

 

[Craigbythesea]

What I did say, is that you are neglecting the fact they did not have the HOLY SPIRIT in them, to EMPOWER THEM.

Those who have been saved and who have therefore received the gift of the Holy Spirit to empower them to live sanctified and holy lives by grace through faith and yet chose to become apostates shall have even less excuse than the unbelievers in the wilderness, and shall be deserving of even worse punishment, and so it shall be for them in hell.

Heb. 10:29. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30. For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
31. It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Heb. 6:4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and {then} have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8. but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

 

[michelle]

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Those who have been saved and who have therefore received the gift of the Holy Spirit to empower them to live sanctified and holy lives by grace through faith and yet chose to become apostates shall have even less excuse than the unbelievers in the wilderness, and shall be deserving of even worse punishment, and so it shall be for them in hell.
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And the point I am trying to share with you, is that one who is EMPOWERED by the Holy Spirit is saved, and what you are saying/teaching about the saved person is AN IMPOSSIBLITY and according to the scriptures.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Lacy Evans]

 

[Craigbythesea]

Unless you speak fluent koine Greek and understand the cultural context of the first century, you're understanding of Greek grammar is just as flawed as mine.

Some of us have been to school and have spent the better part of our lives studying New Testament exegesis in the light of the Hellenistic culture. And, by the way, in English, “you’re” is a contraction for “you are.” Since before the 12th century the correct English word for the second person possessive pronoun, has been “your.” Notice that “has been” is a present-perfect form indicating past action with present results.

I say this because: the native speaker often times has no "grammatical" clue to the statements he makes. He speaks intuitively and understands readily the conceptual meaning that is being conveyed.

Dear Sir,

This is most apparently the case with you, but it is NOT the case with those who have learned the importance of the use of correct syntax and the other elements of grammar. And I for one have no doubt whatsoever that the Holy Spirit, who inspired the writings in the Greek New Testament, was very competent in the correct use of Greek syntax and ALL the other elements of Greek grammar.

I have yet to see anyone parse or use the historical/grammatical hermeneutic on someone's English letter, etc. Why? We don't need to.

Well, now you have! And when I receive letters from friends who are dear to me, I do not read them carelessly, and I do pay very close attention to the tenses that they use because the tenses that they use tell me, for example, if the things in their lives that they are describing past action with present results, or action that is completely in the past.

Take the poem, "Jack and Jill." Has any English American ever stopped after the first line and said, "Now, note, the past tense of the verb to be."

Jack and Jill went up the hill to fetch a pail of water
Jack fell down and broke his crown
And Jill came tumbling after.
Up got Jack, and home did trot As fast as he could caper
He went to bed and bound his head
With vinegar and brown paper.

It strikes me as very odd that you would think that Paul’s Epistle to the Romans is of no more significance and in no more need of careful reading than a nursery rhyme.

To think we can build whole theologies from the tenses of verbs is a little silly. Greek is important, but if I never saw a Greek character, I'd still be able to read and understand my English translation.

Would you know from reading an English translation of the New Testament that in many places in the Gospels where the action is translated into English using a past tense the Holy Spirit chose to use the present tense that we in our western culture, contrary to the Hellenistic culture, conceive as being exclusively in the present time?

Romans 8:29-30 is not difficult to understand. The elect are foreknown, predestined, called, justified, glorified!

Your aberrant interpretation of Romans 8:29-30 is in opposition to the Greek text in which the Greek aorist tense is used. In order for your interpretation to be correct, the tense would necessarily have been the Greek perfect tense (similar to the English present-perfect tense). The Holy Spirit knew that, Paul knew that, his Greek speaking reader’s knew that, and all readers today should know that, but some people choose to believe what they want to believe and dismiss the facts as being irrelevant.

 

[Craigbythesea]

And the point I am trying to share with you, is that one who is EMPOWERED by the Holy Spirit is saved, and what you are saying/teaching about the saved person is AN IMPOSSIBLITY and according to the scriptures.

No, it is only impossible according to you modernistic, licentious doctrine that is taking Baptists to hell by the thousands ! If hell and eternal damnation are not a possibility for a Christian, why do we find in the Bible so very many warnings of the dangers of apostasy ? And, by the way, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to fall out of a state that one was never in.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by Lacy Evans:

A most brilliant post

! It reminds me of one of mine .

 

[Paul33]

Thanks for taking the bait!

I wrote "you're" and you knew I meant "your." Children's play!

I too have spent years studying Greek, Hebrew, and Latin! But I would never assume to do to the English language what most of our "scholars" do to Hebrew and Greek! Your limited ability with Greek, Hebrew, Latin, or any other language that is not native to your upbringing is obvious to any child who grows up with the language.

Yes, there are tenses in language, and to think that you can make perfect one to one correlations from one language to another is misguided.

Your accusation that my use of the example of "Jack and Jill" equates to the same value I put on the Epistle of Romans shows that some of us can't even follow simple arguments about interpretation without distorting what the other person says.

The example you site about "present tenses" being translated "past tense" is the use of the historical present (Dana and Mantey, 185).

The aorist tense used in Romans 8:29-30 may be a gnomic aorist (Dana and Mantey, 197).

But Greek scholars in the field are revising their assessment of the aorist tense in Greek even as we speak.

Now as for the Holy Spirit, Paul and his intended audience, I have no doubt that they understood the meaning of the aorist tense in the context in which it was used. As for you, I'm not so sure!

 

[michelle]

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No, it is only impossible according to you modernistic, licentious doctrine that is taking Baptists to hell by the thousands ! If hell and eternal damnation are not a possibility for a Christian, why do we find in the Bible so very many warnings of the dangers of apostasy ? And, by the way, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to fall out of a state that one was never in.
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No it isn't, if one THINKS they are when indeed they are not, and seem like they are, when indeed they are not. Do not forget, satan can come as an angel of light, and so also his ministers. Do not forget also, then men have crept in unawares, who are wolves in sheeps clothing. Having the appearance of godliness, but denying the Power thereof.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Craigbythesea]

Thanks for taking the bait!

I wrote "you're" and you knew I meant "your." Children's play!

I do not play children’s games with the word of God and the souls of men. I sincerely hope that you were not really playing a game, but that you simply made a grammatical error.

Your accusation that my use of the example of "Jack and Jill" equates to the same value I put on the Epistle of Romans shows that some of us can't even follow simple arguments about interpretation without distorting what the other person says.

Is my humor really so dry that it does not wet your appetite for further discussion? If you were actually offended by my words, however, I do sincerely apologize.

But Greek scholars in the field are revising their assessment of the aorist tense in Greek even as we speak.

You are quite right! The theology of men is in a constant state of flux, and in order to defend their newest and latest theological discoveries theologians find it necessary to revise their assessment of the aorist tense to make the New Testament line up with their newest and latest theological discoveries!

Bosh!

 

[Craigbythesea]

Do not forget also, then men have crept in unawares, who are wolves in sheeps clothing. Having the appearance of godliness, but denying the Power thereof.

There are certain members of this message board that constantly remind me of that fact!

 

[Craigbythesea]

No it isn't, if one THINKS they are when indeed they are not, and seem like they are, when indeed they are not.

I do NOT play word games! If the danger of apostasy is only imaginary, then maybe the devil and hell are too !