An Interesting Post Against Eternal Security

[JackRUS]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
I believe that I should say a few more words about theological bias and distortions in Greek grammars. In an article entitled, “When Did Jesus Know? The Translation of Aorist and Perfect Participles for Verbs of Perception In the Gospels” by the Greek language scholar Daniel B. Wallace, Th.M., Ph.D., we read:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> The following passages are but a sample of the kinds of texts that should show that Jesus, too, grew in knowledge: Matt 12.15, 25; 16.8; 22.18; 26.10; Mark 8.17; 12.15; Luke 9.47; John 6.15, 61; 19.28.

If we treat these adverbial participles when Jesus is the subject in a manner that is different from how we treat them when others are the subject, then our translations are suspect of theological bias. Integrity in translation demands that we not be inconsistent in this matter, even if such consistency makes us theologically uncomfortable. In this respect, the NET Bible stands apart from most other translations.

Wallace writes here that theological bias can interfere with the correct interpretation of adverbial participles. Whether you agree with him or not regarding the knowledge of Jesus, you cannot deny that theological bias can interfere with the correct interpretation of adverbial participles.


James Wesley Stivers, in his book, Restoring The Foundations, writes,

“Most seminaries teach Greek grammar from a theological bias, and their reference works are biased also.

And here is a review of Daniel Wallace’s Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics 5.0: An Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament:

Is it a grammar or an Evangelical apology ?, April 12, 2004
Reviewer: moomintroll2000 "moomintroll2000" (Beijing China)


Please do not misunderstand the provocative title of my comment: I am not saying that this book is worthless and that you should avoid buying it.

On the contrary, I think that Wallace's grammar is an invaluable work worth every dollar you spend for it. First of all, unlike other grammars, this one is as thrilling as a detective novel. Of course, unless you are deeply interested in NT exegesis, you will probably find Wallace's huge treatise anything but gripping. But if like me you are an impassioned reader of the Gospel and its original text, you will surely love this book.And the good news is that it is not for advanced learners of koine Greek only. In fact I started using it with minimal knowledge of Greek and I have little doubt that a complete stranger to the language of Luke and Paul could also glean immensely useful information from its pages provided he be a serious student of the Scriptures.

Having said that I must warn potential buyers and readers that Wallace is not an objective grammarian and linguist at all. Unlike a real scientist, he does not put aside his own religious and philosophical convictions aside and look at the NT dispassionately. What he does almost sistematically is to advance his own Protestant views of Christ and atonement and other crucial points with the help of Greek grammar. Fortunately, he does state the opinion of scholars who disagree with him but he gives them minimal space. Most of the time he does not even quote them!
A perfect example of Wallace's bias is the discussion on the use of the prepositions "uper" and "anti" in relation to the question of atonement. He mentions the fact that W.Bauer translates these prepositions by "on behalf of" rather than by "instead of" but he does not illustrate or expatiate on Bauer's point of view. Instead the reader is presented with several pages of arguments in favor of his own opinion, so that the naive reader may end up thinking that the translation favored by respected scholars like Bauer has no solid ground under it. And that is only one example among many, many others.

Of course, one could argue that many dubious points of Greek grammar simply cannot be cleared without a previous choice and that all exegesis must involve a certain amount of eisegesis. This may be true but Wallace really goes too far. Does he write for only for his small chapel? Aren't there Catholics and eastern Orthodox and Jews out there too?

Strangely enough this is a BCE(before common era)/CE(common era)book. Does Wallace not realize that these acronyms are basically anti-Christian and contribute to the secularization of our culture?

I say to all Christian authors: FOR GOD'S SAKE USE BC AND AD !!!

So my advice to you is: buy this grammar. But be sure to buy another one to know the two sides of the Biblical coin.

The point that I am making here is that in the study of the Greek New Testament using Greek grammars it is very important to be aware of the theological background of the author because the author’s theological background is going to have a very significant part in the author’s understanding and presentation of the grammar of the Greek New Testament. The twisting and distorting that the bias causes may not be deliberate, but it is a very present reality.

The doctrine of eternal security is a relative new doctrine that evolved as a consequence of a distorted understanding of several Biblical themes, including the sovereignty of God and predestination. However, the grammar of the Greek New Testament does not support the arguments put forward from Scripture in defense of the doctrine of eternal security, and novel and innovative theories have been concocted that supplant even some of the basic rules and principles of Greek grammar.

</font>[/QUOTE]Hmmmmm....It would appear that you haven't followed the advise of Daniel Wallace as you are still a tad biased in your analysis.

 

[JackRUS]

Craig.
You wrote this in reference to my statement thayt all of Christ's parables were directed to the Jews:

Prior to his death, almost every word that Jesus spoke was spoken exclusively to Jews, not Christians, but Jews. The Church, the body of Christ, did not yet exist. So do we therefore cut the four Gospels out of the New Testament and paste them into the Old Testament and write them off as Jewish history that is irrelevant to the Church. Personally, I don’t think so.

What in the world does your reply have to do with my true statement? I never mentioned anything about the good clear teaching that He gave to the disciples to be handed down to us in my statement.

The fact is that there is no true analogy between the Prodigal Son and the loss of a believer in Christ. At best there is a lost son (Jew) who came to Christ in the story. Of course you would never have a jealous saved older son in the body of Christ lamenting when a person gets saved or even a Christian repenting. Even when Saul was turned to Paul there was rejoicing when they were sure he was truly saved.

 

[JackRUS]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
Michelle,

Your view and dispensationalism doctrine on Pentacost Day, its teaches that, the plan of salvation have changed, is a false.

The plan of salvation never change since from the beginning to today. It remain always the same plan.

Even, conditional warnings never change since from the beginning to today.

Hebrews chapter 3 and 4 teaching us, that we must remember what Hebrews did during in the wilderness. These are conditional warnings in Hebrews chapter 3 and 4. Obivously, Hebrews chapter 3 and 4 still apply to us today, and throughout all centuries.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Are you trying to imply that all of the Hebrews in the wilderness were saved? Read Acts 7. The warning in Hebrews 3-4 pertains to getting saved. Not staying saved, because in every church there are tares among the wheat. Acts 20:28-31.

[ October 28, 2004, 09:23 PM: Message edited by: JackRUS ]

 

[Craigbythesea]

The warning in Hebrews 3-4 pertains to getting saved.

What kind of an insane, screwball interpretation is this?

Hebrews 3

1. Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession;
2. He was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was in all His house.
3. For He has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, by just so much as the builder of the house has more honor than the house.
4. For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God.
5. Now Moses was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken later;
6. but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house--whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.
7. Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
8. DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME, AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,
9. WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED Me BY TESTING Me, AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS.
10. "THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION, AND SAID, 'THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART, AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS';
11. AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, 'THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.' "
The Peril of Unbelief
12. Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
14. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,
15. while it is said, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME."
16. For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses?
17. And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?
18. And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient?
19. So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.

Hebrews 4

1. Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it.
2. For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.
3. For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, "AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST," although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4. For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: "AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS";
5. and again in this passage, "THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST."
6. Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,
7. He again fixes a certain day, "Today," saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS."
8. For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that.
9. So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
10. For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.
11. Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.
12. For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
13. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
14. Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
15. For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.
16. Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
(NASB, 1995)

The writer here is addressing Hebrew Christians (holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling) and warns them not to fall into the disbelief and disobedience of the Old Testament Hebrew people. Notice the words that I have placed in bold type showing that the writer of this epistle is in the same state as those to whom he is writing. If it is argued that the writer is writing to those who have not been saved, we must conclude that the writer has not been saved either. And that would not be an example of an exposition of the text; it would be an example of a mutilation of the text.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Craig,

Good post!

You took lot of time to typing quote from Hebrews chapter 3 with lot of verses. We need to know the truth and make us free. I urge anyone of you, please read and study verse, by verse, all scriptures from Genesis to Revelation. All always apply to us,. We cannot neglect them. All are always give us the instruction with warnings.

Craig, Keep it up!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[HankD]

If it is argued that the writer is writing to those who have not been saved, we must conclude that the writer has not been saved either. And that would not be an example of an exposition of the text; it would be an example of a mutilation of the text.

So say you.

The writer is a Hebrew writing to other Hebrews which is by virtue of biological birth. It is on the basis of that birth and identity that Paul appeals to them to move on and enter into His rest. This is the test.

"...To day IF ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

Being a Hebrew by physical birth and circumcision did not include salvation but did include citizenship in the commonwealth of Israel.

John 8
37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

You also asked:

What kind of an insane, screwball interpretation is this?

Out of what kind of spirit is this ad hominem coming?

HankD

 

[JackRUS]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> The warning in Hebrews 3-4 pertains to getting saved.

What kind of an insane, screwball interpretation is this?

Hebrews 3

1. Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession;
2. He was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was in all His house.
3. For He has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, by just so much as the builder of the house has more honor than the house.
4. For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God.
5. Now Moses was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken later;
6. but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house--whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.
7. Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
8. DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME, AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,
9. WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED Me BY TESTING Me, AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS.
10. "THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION, AND SAID, 'THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART, AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS';
11. AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, 'THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.' "
The Peril of Unbelief
12. Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
14. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,
15. while it is said, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME."
16. For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses?
17. And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?
18. And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient?
19. So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.

Hebrews 4

1. Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it.
2. For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.
3. For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, "AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST," although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4. For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: "AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS";
5. and again in this passage, "THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST."
6. Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,
7. He again fixes a certain day, "Today," saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS."
8. For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that.
9. So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
10. For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.
11. Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.
12. For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
13. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
14. Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
15. For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.
16. Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
(NASB, 1995)

The writer here is addressing Hebrew Christians (holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling) and warns them not to fall into the disbelief and disobedience of the Old Testament Hebrew people. Notice the words that I have placed in bold type showing that the writer of this epistle is in the same state as those to whom he is writing. If it is argued that the writer is writing to those who have not been saved, we must conclude that the writer has not been saved either. And that would not be an example of an exposition of the text; it would be an example of a mutilation of the text.

</font>[/QUOTE]WOW Craig! Insane screwball huh??

Now tell me Craig, who was the author of Hebrews addressing in the first chapter when he was defending the diety of Christ? (John 3:18;36).

And how come this epistle was not addressed to a church?

And why do you believe that all Hebrews at the time of Paul were saved?

 

[michelle]

--------------------------------------------------
And why do you believe that all Hebrews at the time of Paul were saved?
--------------------------------------------------

Because they must ignore this truth, in order to hold to their false beliefs perpetrated by men, rather than God and what he reveals to those who have eyes to see, and ears to hear.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Lacy Evans:

A most brilliant post

! It reminds me of one of mine .

</font>[/QUOTE]Sometimes I type up a bunch of junk, then at the last minute realize that I was probably in the flesh. So I hit edit and delete it. You ought to try it when you are tempted to go anal over a typo (you're, your, yall's). It's called grace.

lacy

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
What kind of an insane, screwball interpretation is this?

The writer here is addressing Hebrew Christians (holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling) and warns them not to fall into the disbelief and disobedience of the Old Testament Hebrew people. Notice the words that I have placed in bold type showing that the writer of this epistle is in the same state as those to whom he is writing. If it is argued that the writer is writing to those who have not been saved, we must conclude that the writer has not been saved either. And that would not be an example of an exposition of the text; it would be an example of a mutilation of the text.

AMEN Brother Craig! Preach it!

I actually agree with Craig. Wow! Now if he would just get the "Eternal Security" right, He would be a Millenial Exclusionists.

Lacy

 

[Paul33]

 

[Craigbythesea]

So say you.

The writer is a Hebrew writing to other Hebrews which is by virtue of biological birth. It is on the basis of that birth and identity that Paul appeals to them to move on and enter into His rest. This is the test.

"...To day IF ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

Being a Hebrew by physical birth and circumcision did not include salvation but did include citizenship in the commonwealth of Israel.

John 8
37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

Being a Hebrew by physical birth and circumcision did not save anyone, but the persons being addressed in Hebrews 3 & 4 are Hebrew Christians, plain and simple. Believe it or not, even Christians have a need to listen to the voice of God, and our writer of this epistle is warning these Hebrew Christians of the dangers entailed in not doing so. To deny these facts is worse that ludicrous! The “B” word would be much more appropriate, and Jesus would not have hesitated for a nanosecond to use it in this case where the redemptive work of the Holy Spirit is attributed to works of the flesh.

You also asked:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What kind of an insane, screwball interpretation is this?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Out of what kind of spirit is this ad hominem coming?

The Spirit of Christ!

Matt. 23:13. "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
14. ["Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you will receive greater condemnation.]
15. "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
16. "Woe to you, blind guides, who say, 'Whoever swears by the temple, that is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple is obligated.'
17. "You fools and blind men! Which is more important, the gold or the temple that sanctified the gold?
18. "And, 'Whoever swears by the altar, that is nothing, but whoever swears by the offering on it, he is obligated.'
19. "You blind men, which is more important, the offering, or the altar that sanctifies the offering?
20. "Therefore, whoever swears by the altar, swears both by the altar and by everything on it.
21. "And whoever swears by the temple, swears both by the temple and by Him who dwells within it.
22. "And whoever swears by heaven, swears both by the throne of God and by Him who sits upon it.
23. "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.
24. "You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
25. "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence.
26. "You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also.
27. "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness.
28. "So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
29. "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,
30. and say, 'If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'
31. "So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.
32. "Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers.
33. "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?
34. "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,
35. so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36. "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
Lament over Jerusalem
37. "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
38. "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!
39. "For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, 'BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!' "

And it is NOT an ad hominem remark because I did not attack the character of the poster but the character of his interpretation—and for such an interpretation the English language falls radically short in its supply of suitably pejorative adjectives! I more than made this obvious by using bold type to emphasize some words that expressly show that Hebrew Christians are being addressed here. And notice Heb. 3:6. “but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.” The language of this sentence alone 100% eliminates ANY possibility that the writer of this epistle is writing to persons who have not yet been saved.

(All scriptures NASB, 1995)

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by Lacy Evans:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Lacy Evans:

A most brilliant post

! It reminds me of one of mine .

</font>[/QUOTE]Sometimes I type up a bunch of junk, then at the last minute realize that I was probably in the flesh. So I hit edit and delete it. You ought to try it when you are tempted to go anal over a typo (you're, your, yall's). It's called grace.

lacy </font>[/QUOTE]Dear Brother Lacy,

My comment was not a criticism of you—it was a reference to my having recently done the same thing!

 

[Craigbythesea]

I actually agree with Craig. Wow!

Wow!

 

[Craigbythesea]

WOW Craig! Insane screwball huh??

I apologize for not using much stronger language.

Now tell me Craig, who was the author of Hebrews addressing in the first chapter when he was defending the diety of Christ? (John 3:18;36).

I believe that the literary forms used in Chapter One make it very obvious that the author of Hebrews was addressing Hebrew Christians. But for those who have not studied the Epistle to the Hebrews as literature, we have an explicit answer to your question in the very first verse after Chapter One:

Heb. 2:1. For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it.

And please don’t tell me that you don’t have enough knowledge of Hellenistic literature to understand what I am talking about. The translation before us, interpreted as 21st century American Literature, requires that we interpret the first person plural pronoun to include both the writer and his audience in the category of those who “have heard,” a present-perfect verb indicating that they had not just “heard” the Gospel, but that it had changed their lives in a manner that was common to all of them, including the writer. These Hebrew were Christians, and to deny that fact is to deny that this verse says what it says!

And how come this epistle was not addressed to a church?

Duh! It was addressed to Hebrew Christians because the contents of the Epistle were meant for Hebrew Christians rather than a church made up of Jews and Gentiles.

And why do you believe that all Hebrews at the time of Paul were saved?

Most obviously I do NOT believe any such thing! But this epistle was written to Hebrew Christians, and there is NO doubt of that fact—unless the reader can’t understand what he or she is reading because of the lack of a high school education or because of a mental or spiritual defect.

 

[HankD]

Most obviously I do NOT believe any such thing! But this epistle was written to Hebrew Christians, and there is NO doubt of that fact—unless the reader can’t understand what he or she is reading because of the lack of a high school education or because of a mental or spiritual defect.

1 Peter 3
8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:
9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.
10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:

HankD

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:

My comment was not a criticism of you—it was a reference to my having recently done the same thing!

You know I love you Craig. I didn't take it as a criticism.

I didn't mean to be ugly. It's just that you have hit me on the grammar/spelling/typo thing before and it really makes you seem smug. I don't believe you are.

Lacy

 

[Craigbythesea]

1 Peter 3
8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:
9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.
10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:

Prov. 27:5 Open rebuke is better than secret love.

Eccles. 7:5 It is better to hear the rebuke of the wise, than for a man to hear the song of fools.

 

[HankD]

Psalm 133:1 &lt;A Song of degrees of David.&gt; Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!

HankD

 

[JackRUS]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> WOW Craig! Insane screwball huh??

I apologize for not using much stronger language.

Now tell me Craig, who was the author of Hebrews addressing in the first chapter when he was defending the diety of Christ? (John 3:18;36).

I believe that the literary forms used in Chapter One make it very obvious that the author of Hebrews was addressing Hebrew Christians. But for those who have not studied the Epistle to the Hebrews as literature, we have an explicit answer to your question in the very first verse after Chapter One:

Heb. 2:1. For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it.

And please don’t tell me that you don’t have enough knowledge of Hellenistic literature to understand what I am talking about. The translation before us, interpreted as 21st century American Literature, requires that we interpret the first person plural pronoun to include both the writer and his audience in the category of those who “have heard,” a present-perfect verb indicating that they had not just “heard” the Gospel, but that it had changed their lives in a manner that was common to all of them, including the writer. These Hebrew were Christians, and to deny that fact is to deny that this verse says what it says!

And how come this epistle was not addressed to a church?

Duh! It was addressed to Hebrew Christians because the contents of the Epistle were meant for Hebrew Christians rather than a church made up of Jews and Gentiles.

And why do you believe that all Hebrews at the time of Paul were saved?

Most obviously I do NOT believe any such thing! But this epistle was written to Hebrew Christians, and there is NO doubt of that fact—unless the reader can’t understand what he or she is reading because of the lack of a high school education or because of a mental or spiritual defect.

</font>[/QUOTE]The epistle was written to Christian Jews, but much of the content was addressed to or about unsaved Jews. This was an apologetic work that was to be used to school the Herbews (much like in Galatians) that were among them that were unsaved; and the Hebrews that were not among them and hence, unsaved.

This from the Companion Bible.

"Addressed to the Hebrews; to the nation under it's earlier name, Palestinain Jews and the Diaspora (John 7:35) alike. Outwardly for believers (cp. 3:1; 6:9; 10:34), it is aimed at waiverers (cp. 4:14; 10:23,32) and opposers (cp. 6:8; 12:15,16; 13:10)

Who was the Book of Galatians addressed to? Christians you say. You are correct. What was this warning addressed to then?

"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

"And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that
they might bring us into bondage:" 2:4

Note what Paul says here:

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Questions: Why does Paul call these that want to "bring us into bondage" "false brethren" and you call them true brethren? I mean, wasn't the epistle addressed to only believers? How then could there be unsaved among them, and why don't you believe that this could also be the case among the believers addressed in Hebrews? (see also Acts 20:28-31)