An Interesting Post Against Eternal Security

[Craigbythesea]

This from the Companion Bible.

"Addressed to the Hebrews; to the nation under it's earlier name, Palestinain Jews and the Diaspora (John 7:35) alike. Outwardly for believers (cp. 3:1; 6:9; 10:34), it is aimed at waiverers (cp. 4:14; 10:23,32) and opposers (cp. 6:8; 12:15,16; 13:10)

There is a huge difference between “addressed to” and “aimed at.” All of Paul’s letters were addressed to Christians, but some parts of his letters were aimed at certain individuals or groups of individuals that were a part of the larger group. For example, much of Paul’s Epistle to the Romans is aimed at the Jewish members of the church who were in need of some special admonitions that were not applicable to the Church as a whole. Some scholars find a similar thing in the Epistle to the Hebrews, but if it is there, it is not nearly as obvious as in the Epistle to the Romans. One thing for certain is that the Epistle to the Hebrews was addressed to Jewish Christians. Even the Companion Bible agrees with that.

Hebrews 6:8 was NOT addressed to unbelievers, as is readily apparent when read in context:

Heb. 6:1. Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
2. of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.
3. And this we will do, if God permits.
4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8. but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
Better Things for You
9. But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Hebrews 12:15, 16 was NOT addressed to unbelievers, as is readily apparent when read in context:

Heb. 12:1. Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
2. fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3. For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.
A Father's Discipline
4. You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin;
5. and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, "MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD, NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM;
6. FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES."
7. It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
8. But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
9. Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live?
10. For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness.
11. All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.
12. Therefore, strengthen the hands that are weak and the knees that are feeble,
13. and make straight paths for your feet, so that the limb which is lame may not be put out of joint, but rather be healed.
14. Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.
15. See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;
16. that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal.
17. For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears.
Contrast of Sinai and Zion
18. For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind,
19. and to the blast of a trumpet and the sound of words which sound was such that those who heard begged that no further word be spoken to them.
20. For they could not bear the command, "IF EVEN A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT WILL BE STONED."
21. And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, "I AM FULL OF FEAR and trembling."
22. But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels,
23. to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
24. and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Hebrews 13:10 was NOT addressed to unbelievers, as is readily apparent when read in context:

Heb. 13:1. Let love of the brethren continue.
2. Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for by this some have entertained angels without knowing it.
3. Remember the prisoners, as though in prison with them, and those who are ill-treated, since you yourselves also are in the body.
4. Marriage is to be held in honor among all, and the marriage bed is to be undefiled; for fornicators and adulterers God will judge.
5. Make sure that your character is free from the love of money, being content with what you have; for He Himself has said, "I WILL NEVER DESERT YOU, NOR WILL I EVER FORSAKE YOU,"
6. so that we confidently say, "THE LORD IS MY HELPER, I WILL NOT BE AFRAID. WHAT WILL MAN DO TO ME?"
7. Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you; and considering the result of their conduct, imitate their faith.
8. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
9. Do not be carried away by varied and strange teachings; for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by foods, through which those who were so occupied were not benefited.
10. We have an altar from which those who serve the tabernacle have no right to eat.
11. For the bodies of those animals whose blood is brought into the holy place by the high priest as an offering for sin, are burned outside the camp.
12. Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people through His own blood, suffered outside the gate.
13. So, let us go out to Him outside the camp, bearing His reproach.
14. For here we do not have a lasting city, but we are seeking the city which is to come.
God-pleasing Sacrifices
15. Through Him then, let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that give thanks to His name.
16. And do not neglect doing good and sharing, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.
17. Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.
18. Pray for us, for we are sure that we have a good conscience, desiring to conduct ourselves honorably in all things.
19. And I urge you all the more to do this, so that I may be restored to you the sooner.
Benediction
20. Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord,
21. equip you in every good thing to do His will, working in us that which is pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen.
22. But I urge you, brethren, bear with this word of exhortation, for I have written to you briefly.
23. Take notice that our brother Timothy has been released, with whom, if he comes soon, I will see you.
24. Greet all of your leaders and all the saints. Those from Italy greet you.
25. Grace be with you all.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by HankD:
Psalm 133:1 <A Song of degrees of David.> Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!

HankD

Ecc 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
Ecc 3:2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
Ecc 3:3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
Ecc 3:4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
Ecc 3:5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
Ecc 3:6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
Ecc 3:7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
Ecc 3:8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

 

[HankD]

Ecc 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
Ecc 3:2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
Ecc 3:3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
Ecc 3:4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
Ecc 3:5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
Ecc 3:6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
Ecc 3:7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
Ecc 3:8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

Amen.

NKJ 1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.
4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;
5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;
6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth...

10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Hey! What do you know? A whole thread devoted to the ever popular "Bludgeon them with a whole page of Bible verses" method of debate. I wonder where ya'll learned that!

Lacy

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by Lacy Evans:
Hey! What do you know? A whole thread devoted to the ever popular "Bludgeon them with a whole page of Bible verses" method of debate. I wonder where ya'll learned that!

Lacy

In my personal and most humble opinion

, it is wiser to base one's opinions on whole pages of Bible verses

than it is to base one's theology on fading memories of one’s favorite episode of the Twilight Zone .

 

[HankD]

Hey! What do you know? A whole thread devoted to the ever popular "Bludgeon them with a whole page of Bible verses" method of debate. I wonder where ya'll learned that!

From the author.

HankD

 

[cindig]

Wow,while watching Fox News regarding the election I started reading these posts. Very interesting. My husband was brought up in an Assembly of God home. I know everyone of these arguments. My husband is now the Chairman of the Deacons in our Southern Baptist Church. I'm not going to say I won the argument, but that he sought the Holy Spirit on this matter instead of how he was brought up. What is absolutely amazing to me is that last year his parents joined our church as did his sister.
Charles Stanley, brought up Pentecostal said "To continue to believe that salvation could be lost was to have to admit that salvation is not by grace alone, but also by works.

 

[Craigbythesea]

cindig,

Welcome to the Baptist Board!

There are very many people who were brought up in Pentecostal homes who have converted to Mormonism, the Jehovah's witnesses, and other cults. Am I to understand that you believe that when a Pentecostal layman who was not well-grounded in the doctrines of his church and the Bible converts to another denomination or religion, his doing so is proof that the other denomination or religion is the true religion?

I fellowshipped with the Assemblies of God for several years and I never once met an Assembly of God layman who knew much more about the doctrine of the Assemblies of God or the Bible than I know about building a flying saucer. I have also met a number of pastors in the Assemblies of God, and only two of them knew more than a small fraction of what I knew about the doctrine of the Assemblies of God and the Bible, and I have never pastored an Assemblies of God Church.

Charles Stanley, brought up Pentecostal said "To continue to believe that salvation could be lost was to have to admit that salvation is not by grace alone, but also by works.

If this is true, and I have no reason to believe that it is not true, it is an excellent example of the profound ignorance of many Pentecostal laymen, for any Christian with even a little knowledge of the Bible knows that Christians are saved by grace through faith apart from the works of the law. It also shows that Charles Stanley has almost no knowledge whatsoever of the historical, Biblical doctrine of conditional security, for it teaches that Christians are saved by grace through faith apart from the works of the law.

People like Charles Stanley who are ignorant of the view of others have no business criticizing their views. Indeed, people who do that bring a most horrible reproach upon the body of Christ because they not only portray other Christians as being fools, but they make even bigger fools of themselves.

I was saved in an Assembly of God church and I personally witnessed miracles in that church the likes of which I have never seen in a Baptist Church or any other church that teaches the false doctrine of eternal security, or should I say that believes in one of the very many doctrines of eternal security, several of which are currently being debated on this message board. And do you know which of these many doctrines of eternal security Charles Stanley teaches and what the very large majority of Baptist pastors think of that particular doctrine of eternal security?

For four hundred years the Church grew and flourished, and for another 1100 years it survived the dark ages, without the teaching of eternal security. And it has survived another 500 years, in spite of the fact that a minority in its midst is teaching eternal security, but in the last 50 years we have seen the doctrine of eternal security broadcasted by television into millions of homes with the consequence that the divorce rate in those homes (evangelical Christian homes) has increased 10 fold while the divorce rate in the general population has slightly declined. The kids in our churches are habitually using illegal drugs and getting high off of everything from the San Pedro Cactus to old cans of paint. They are “sleeping around,” stealing from their parents, driving and killing people while under the influence, sticking bones through their ears and noses and tongues and every other part of their anatomy as though they are wild jungle savages living in 15th Century equatorial Africa. But no wonder—the medicine cabinets in their parent’s (singular noun) bathrooms are full of prescriptions for high blood pressure, depression, and sexual dysfunction. Their pastor is doing it with the church secretary, the church secretary is doing it with church janitor, and the church janitor is doing with the youth pastor, and the youth pastor is doing it with his dog. But that is OK. God understands what we are going through and he loves us and forgives us. And besides, this life is like a vapor that passes away and we will then all spend eternity in heaven. I feel sorry, though, for the youth pastor, because he won’t have his dog with him in heaven.

The Assembles of God, although they officially believe in conditional security, don’t talk a lot about it today because it isn’t very popular these days. And the same disease that is rampant in many Baptist church has taken a strong foothold in many of the Assembly of God Churches.

When I first walked into an Assembly of God church, I knew that I didn’t need to be saved because I was not living in sin like my Baptist neighbors were. But the women in that church were beautiful—some of the most beautiful women that I had ever seen—and then I noticed that they were not wearing any makeup and that their bodies were clothed in pretty by very modest clothing. The boys didn’t have bones sticking out of their faces and the girls didn’t even have their ears pierced. But the most striking thing was the manifest love that they had for one another—and even me. I told them they were a bunch of ignorant fools, and they told me that Jesus died for my sins. I told them that they were abysmally stupid, and they told me that Jesus loved me. I told them that they needed to get an education, and they told me that I needed to get Jesus.

Over a period of a few months I got to know these people and I got to know that I was a sinner. No, I was not a sinner like my Baptist neighbors, putting on a show, but I fell far short of the holiness of God that I couldn’t help but notice in those Assembly of God Christians who loved Jesus, who loved each other, and who loved me.

That church, like very many other Assembly of God Churches, no longer teaches hell, fire, and brimstone, and it no longer warns of the dangers of apostasy from the Christian faith—and that church is nearly as dead as an Egyptian mummy. The Holy Ghost filled revivals have been replaced by silly old women gossiping about each other and the few other people who still call that relic their church.

All of the many doctrines of eternal security are false doctrines. Indeed, we ALL know that most of them are false, because they contradict each other. If doctrine “F” is right, and it contradicts doctrines “A” through “E,” doctrines “A” through “E are necessarily false doctrines. And if “F” is also false, we better come up with doctrine “G,” and so it has been now for nearly 500 years as one false doctrine of eternal security after another has evolved or has been made up from scratch.

By the way, which one of the many doctrines of eternal security do you believe in?