An Unanswered Argument for all the Bible Believing Calvinists

[William C]

Originally posted by npetreley:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Is that what Paul is referring to when he says "briefly written already"? Maybe. It seems more likely that Paul is referring to Ephesians 2, because that deals with what is revealed, and not just a generic statement that says something has been revealed. It's even possible Paul was referring to both 1:9 and chapter 2, since it's all interrelated. So what?

So what?????? So this mystery which is the exact same word used in both passages is said to have been revealed by God to __________ Who? THE APOSTLES AND PROPHETS (but their dead, but that supports my view of OT election as well so we'll mention them too). Which contradicts the idea that Eph.1:3-12 have all the saints in focus. THAT'S...SO WHAT!!!!

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
Yet your assumption forces the text in Eph. 1:9 to say that God revealed these mysteries to everyone instead of just the apostles as this text clearly points out.

First of all, I don't recall communicating any assumptions about Ephesians 1:9. But as to your assumption that God revealed these mysteries only to the apostles (and I assume you'll concede the prophets, too):

Psst... Don't look now, but I think that Paul, speaking by the Holy Spirit just let the cat out of the bag regarding this mystery. So much for God revealing it only to the apostles. </font>[/QUOTE]We both know that the apostles revealed these mysteries to all the saints, but that is not what either of these passages say. They speak of God's revealing to the Apostles, not the apostles revealing to the saints. Look again at 1:9, who does the revealing? GOD Therefore, who must be the referent? THE APOSTLES

Point made! Even other Calvinist on this board can see that "the possiblity" is there, but you are so cruel, arrogant and blinded by your lack of objectivity you wouldn't admit any possiblity that didn't exactly line up with the assumptions you bring to the text.

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
Please deal with my arguments.

Make some rational ones.

Because something doesn't agree with your assumptions you deem it as irrational. Go look up the word in the dictionary and you'll see your picture right beside it.

By the way, you call it rational to believe that God geniunely calls all men to salvation without providing them the means by which they can respond to that call? The paradoxes that Calvinism creates is what is irrational.

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
You still haven't mentioned anything about the "dispensation of Grace" in verse 2.

Yes I did, I simply didn't address those words. The whole context is about Paul explaining how the Gospel has come to the Gentiles, and is here talking about his role in that process. So what?

Oh, it just goes to show the "uniqueness" of the way in which Paul receieved "grace". Which goes to the question of the "means" of salvation. Grace was "dispensated" to him. That a unique "means" different from the means of "faith" by which we are saved.

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
Or Paul's unique "effectual calling" in verse 7, both of which are in the context of showing his apostolic authority to his audience.

It says nothing about effectual calling with respect to salvation. He's saying he was called to preach to the Gentiles.

If you are fimilar with Paul's conversion experience, his salvation occured at the time of his appointment to become an Apostle.

A call to service was not seen as different from salvation in the eyes of scripture. They are one in the same. We have made them into seperate callings.

The point made concerning God's revelation of mysteries to the Apostles in 1:9 has not been refuted, therefore my point still stands. Paul's referent (us/we) in 1:3-12 was the apostles, thus supporting my assumptions, not yours.

Bro. Bill

 

[sturgman]

Your assumptions is that because Paul does not mention it means that they are not elect. that is not the case. He is speaking of divine revelation, not exclusivly to election.

"I can say I am a married man, a father, and a calvinist. You are not a calvinist" Just because I do not mention your marital status or parental status does not mean you are not a husband, or a father. It is grammatically saying that you are not a calvinist.

Paul states that he is an apostle, he has divine revelation from God, and he is elect. In chapter 3 he refers back to chapter 1 when speaking of divine revelation of the apostles and prophets. You cannot assume from this that all other believers are not elect. That is bad grammar. I don't care how you look at it.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
So what?????? So this mystery which is the exact same word used in both passages is said to have been revealed by God to __________ Who? THE APOSTLES AND PROPHETS (but their dead, but that supports my view of OT election as well so we'll mention them too). Which contradicts the idea that Eph.1:3-12 have all the saints in focus. THAT'S...SO WHAT!!!!

Yes, that is what Ephesians 3 says. And Ephesians 3 is probably referring back to Ephesians 1:9 in that they both talk about the same mystery (or more likely, Ephesians 3 is talking about a part of the mystery referred to in Ephesians 1:9, which strikes me as more comprehensive). You then take a leap off the deep end in your reasoning, as we'll see.

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Psst... Don't look now, but I think that Paul, speaking by the Holy Spirit just let the cat out of the bag regarding this mystery. So much for God revealing it only to the apostles.

We both know that the apostles revealed these mysteries to all the saints, but that is not what either of these passages say. They speak of God's revealing to the Apostles, not the apostles revealing to the saints. Look again at 1:9, who does the revealing? GOD Therefore, who must be the referent? THE APOSTLES</font>[/QUOTE]Some teensy weensy problems with that:

1. You keep leaving out the prophets, which are clearly specified in Ephesians 3. So if you want to mangle the text with your insane premise, you should at the very least mangle it consistently. Oh, that's right. If you are consistent and add in the prophets, the rest of Ephesians 1 fails to make sense. Okay, never mind, I see why you need to leave them out. Carry on.

2. You keep treating Ephesians 1:9 as if it says the same thing as Ephesians 3. It does not. It talks about the same topic (the mystery), but it doesn't say the same thing. You also seem to think it only contains two words: "mystery" and "us". But the verse says:

"having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ".

In other words, Paul's saying, HERE IS THE MYSTERY HE REVEALED TO ALL OF US: THAT IN THE DISPENSATION OF THE FULLNESS OF TIMES HE MIGHT GATHER TOGETHER...etc. Later, he gets more specific and explains his role in this process of revelation.

3. Whether the words are written in ink by Paul or etched in stone by the finger of God, the information still comes from God.

4. Here is the most hilarious error of all. You base your conclusions that "us" can only refer to the apostles because the mystery was revealed only to the apostles... BY QUOTING FROM A LETTER -- EVEN THE VERY SENTENCE -- THAT REVEALS THE MYSTERY TO THE REST OF US!! And, even after we have been clued in on the mystery by that very sentence, you still insist that the rest of the occurrances of "us" must only apply to the apostles.

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
The point made concerning God's revelation of mysteries to the Apostles in 1:9 has not been refuted, therefore my point still stands. Paul's referent (us/we) in 1:3-12 was the apostles, thus supporting my assumptions, not yours.

Bro. Bill

Your point never stood to begin with. It started out dead, has been riddled with bullet holes, and has bled out its last drop. You can try to prop it up and shout "It's alive, alive I tell you!" It'll be fun to watch.

[ February 12, 2003, 02:37 AM: Message edited by: npetreley ]

 

[William C]

Some teensy weensy problems with that:
1. You keep leaving out the prophets, which are clearly specified in Ephesians 3. So if you want to mangle the text with your insane premise, you should at the very least mangle it consistently. Oh, that's right. If you are consistent and add in the prophets, the rest of Ephesians 1 fails to make sense. Okay, never mind, I see why you need to leave them out. Carry on.

Ok, you insist on making this difficult by getting picky because you know your wrong. Ok, I'll go along with you distractions. Just as God had made this mystery known to the Apostles he also had made known mysteries to the Prophets of old. Isaiah speaks of the coming messiah and many prophets seem to indicate the "hardening" of Israel for the ingrafting of the Gentiles. But according to this passage, it had not been made know to the "sons of men" in ages past. Now it was being made know by God to the Apostles so as to be revealed to the saints.

Eph. 1:9 speaks of God's revelation, not the Apostles or the Prophets. GODS

Therefore the referent must be the divinely sent messengers the apostles and before them the prophets. This does absolutely nothing to help your point. It's a mere distraction to divert attention because you know your arguments stinks. But you keep trying...ok.

2. You keep treating Ephesians 1:9 as if it says the same thing as Ephesians 3. It does not. It talks about the same topic (the mystery), but it doesn't say the same thing. You also seem to think it only contains two words: "mystery" and "us". But the verse says:

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ".
------------------------------------------------------------------------
In other words, Paul's saying, HERE IS THE MYSTERY HE REVEALED TO ALL OF US: THAT IN THE DISPENSATION OF THE FULLNESS OF TIMES HE MIGHT GATHER TOGETHER...etc. Later, he gets more specific and explains his role in this process of revelation.

Wow. You are worse than most Arminians when it comes to reinterpreting a passage to fit your assumptions. The verse says, "Wherein He [God] hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will."

Let's go to school Npetreley:
Who does the revealing, class? God does.

Who does he do the revealing to, class? The Apostles (and the before them to the Prophets)

Therefore, who is Paul speaking about in this passage? The Apostles.

Yes, Npetreley, you have your hand up, do you have a question?

"Uh, yeah, uh, your stupid and nobody likes you and we're ignoring you because 'your questions don't merit a response', oh but wait, you make a good point so I guess I better say something now, Uh, Paul says the prophets too, so your wrong! He means all the saints! You dumby, I'm a Christian, you idiot, I treat stangers better than brothers on the Baptist Board, your ugly."

The teacher responds: Well, Npety, that's not very nice to speak that way to fellow believers. Do we need to go through that again for you slower. Look at verse 8 that we just read together, "he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom.." Now, let me ask you a question. Do the first century Christians act in God's wisdom? Or is it the apostles through the spoken and written word who impart to them the wisdom of God to show them how they should act?" Before you answer you may want to look at the problems in the first century churches.

Believers aren't wise within themselves, this board is case and point, we glean our wisdom from divine revelation with the help of the interpretive powers of the the Holy Spirit. The scripture, WRITTEN BY APOSTLES, is our standard of God's wisdom. Which you insist God gives to all saints in the same way he did the apostles.

You get an "F" for poor hermeneutics and for just plain rudeness.

3. Whether the words are written in ink by Paul or etched in stone by the finger of God, the information still comes from God.

Ok, whatever Npety, ignore the means God uses to impart to us that wisdom and those mystries, eventually people will all begin to ignore the divine gifting of the apostles' wisdom. Afterall, according to you we all have equal wisdom and we have all heard the mystery from God himself, let's write a new Bible, sense we are so inspired! GET REAL!!!!

It's amasing to me that your willing to undermine the apostles authority by explaining away their uniquness and divine calling by making us all equals with them. Why? Just to support your assumptions.

4. Here is the most hilarious error of all. You base your conclusions that "us" can only refer to the apostles because the mystery was revealed only to the apostles... BY QUOTING FROM A LETTER -- EVEN THE VERY SENTENCE -- THAT REVEALS THE MYSTERY TO THE REST OF US!! And, even after we have been clued in on the mystery by that very sentence, you still insist that the rest of the occurrances of "us" must only apply to the apostles.

That might be Paul's possible intent if he did not go on to say in the very next verses, "That we should be to the praise of his glory, those WHO FIRST TRUSTED IN CHRIST. In whom you also trusted, AFTER YOU HEARD THE WORD OF TRUTH."

I noticed you didn't deal with these passages, they didn't fit your theory did they. Details...details

When the the "first who trusted" ("we/us") trust in Christ? When God revealed to them directly. DIVINE REVELATION!

When did ("you" )the ones he speaks to in verse 13 trust in Christ? After they heard the MESSAGE OF THE APOSTELS.

If Paul means to apply all that is in verses 3-12 to all the saints why does he even include verses 13-14? What's the point? Its redudant at best. He just says the same things again. Please explain this???????

Also, Paul 'despensation of Grace' in Eph. 3:2 and his "effectual calling" in 3:7 also set Paul apart as unique. Paul's appointing to apostleship cannot be seperated from his salvation, just as the other apostles calling are not separate, as you assumed in your last post. Jesus did not say, "I chose you first for salvation then to go and bear fruit." in John 15:16, which by the way is a prime Calvinistic proof text to support God's election for Salvation. So, now you've not only started to contradict Apostolic authortity, you're now contradicting Calvinism by insisting that Paul's "effectual calling" was to preach and not to salvation as well, as if their are two different "effectual callings." Is that a new belief system you're starting there Npety? The two "effectual calls" of God, he effectually calls you first to salvation then effecually calls you to bear fruit then he effectually calls you to fulfill His divine purpose. Sounds like it would have been better for God to make a bunch of puppets and have a big puppet show for himself. Aren't you contradicting Calvinism by assuming that Paul's effectual calling to preach was separate from his calling to serve?

Let's wait and see what Npety will contradict next...

Bro. Bill

 

[npetreley]

It's alive! Alive, I tell you!

 

[William C]

There he goes again ladies and gentlemen.

Npetrelism--the avoiding of arguments for the sake of self preservation.

He contradicts himself in the scripture and he even contradicts Calvinism by creating two types of "effectual calls." Yet, all he says is, "It's alive" Hardy har har

You're argument is "dead, its dead I tell you!" :

 

[rufus]

ANALYSIS of Ephesians 1:1-14

The apostle blesses God for the spiritual gifts bestowed upon his people, verse 3. Of these the first in order and the source of all the others, is election, verse 4. This election is,

1st. Of individuals.

2nd. In Christ;

3rd. It is from eternity.

4th. It is to holiness, and to the dignity of sons of God.

5th. It is founded on the sovereign pleasure of God, verses 4, 5.

6th. Its final object is the glory of God, or the manifestation of his grace, verse 6.

The second blessing here mentioned is actual redemption through the blood of Christ; the free remission of sins according to the riches of his grace, verses 7, 8.

The third blessing is the revelation of the divine purpose in relation to the economy of redemption; which has for its object the reduction of all things to a harmonious whole under Jesus Christ, verses 9, 10.

Through this Redeemer, the Jewish Christians who had long looked for the Messiah are, agreeably to the divine purpose, made the heirs of God, verses 11, 12.

The Gentile converts are partakers of the same inheritance; because, having believed in Christ, they are assured of their redemption by the possession of the Holy Spirit, the pledge of the inheritance until its actual and complete enjoyment, verses 13, 14.

ANALYSIS of Ephesians 3:1-13
The office which Paul had received was that of an apostle to the Gentiles, Ephesians 3:1–2. For this office he was qualified by direct revelation from Jesus Christ, concerning the purpose of redemption, of his knowledge of which the preceding portions of his epistle, were sufficient evidence, verses 3, 4. The special truth, now more plainly revealed than ever before, was the union of the Gentiles with the Jews as joint partakers of the promise of redemption, by means of the gospel, verses 5, 6. As the gospel is the means of bringing the Gentiles to this fellowship with the saints, Paul was, by the special grace and almighty power of God, converted and made a minister of the gospel, verses 7, 8. The object of his ministry was to make known the unsearchable riches of Christ, and enlighten men as to the purpose of redemption which had from eternity been hid in the divine mind, verse 9. And the object or design of redemption itself is the manifestation of the wisdom of God to principalities and powers in heaven, verse 10. This glorious purpose has been executed in Christ, in whom we as redeemed have free access to God. Afflictions endured in such a cause were no ground of depression, but rather of glory, verses 11–13.

rufus

 

[William C]

Originally posted by rufus:
The Gentile converts are partakers of the same inheritance; because, having believed in Christ, they are assured of their redemption by the possession of the Holy Spirit, the pledge of the inheritance until its actual and complete enjoyment, verses 13, 14&#65279

Rufus, I appreciate you transcribing you commentary for us to read. At least the scholar you are quoting acknowlegdes Paul's distinction of Referant's based upon his use of what Npetreley calls PRONOUNISM. It's interesting that even Calvinistic scholars recongize this change in referants based upon his pronouns and direction, yet Npetreley is so bent on "winning" an arguement he doesn't even concede the obvious points of agreement. This makes debate very frustrating and fruitless.

I don't see how your quote provides a link between the Jewish referant (apostles) and the Gentile referant in regard to Predestination and Election. I only see the link of their trust; their inheretance through the Holy Spirit; and their redemption. Nothing is said that links the Gentile referants to Predestination/Election or effectual calling expect the assumption that it must be so.

God Bless,
Bill

 

[npetreley]

Thanks, rufus. That was excellent.

 

[William C]

Originally posted by npetreley:
Thanks, rufus. That was excellent.

A display of "Npetrelism" at its finest.

 

[grateful4grace]

I must wholly agree with those who have reckoned your challenge as empty and without merit. You are wholly confounding the matter of WHAT was revealed with WHO it was revealed to, and you have not made, and can not make any proof of the only point of pertinence..... that election does not respect the election of persons to salvation, than which nothing could be more perfectly obvious for anyone reading Ephesians 1 with a half open mind.

You claim that people are not answering your arguments... you must first make one for them to answer.

grateful4grace

 

[Frogman]

The teacher responds: Well, Npety, that's not very nice to speak that way to fellow believers. Do we need to go through that again for you slower. Look at verse 8 that we just read together, "he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom.." Now, let me ask you a question. Do the first century Christians act in God's wisdom? Or is it the apostles through the spoken and written word who impart to them the wisdom of God to show them how they should act?" Before you answer you may want to look at the problems in the first century churches.

Bro. Bill,

This argument could be used to say that only Paul was elected. How??

Because each of the Apostles left Christ when he was arrested; Peter openly denied him, even in His presence, later Peter also feared the Jews to the point that he was withstood by Paul. Yeah, only Paul acted in the wisdom revealed to him from God, thus only Paul was elected.

Paul, once converted never denied Christ, never stood with the Jews because he feared persecution, yeah, I believe these facts would show us the election of Paul and the fact that these other men were believers because they chose to be; thus their weaknesses are more apparent.


God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[William C]

Originally posted by grateful4grace:
I must wholly agree with those who have reckoned your challenge as empty and without merit. You are wholly confounding the matter of WHAT was revealed with WHO it was revealed to,

What was revealed? The mysteries: which is that God has provided "The WAY" for salvation to the Gentiles.

Who revealed this mystery? God

To whom did he reveal this mystery too? Apostles and Prophets.

Who did the apostles (namely Paul) reveal it to? The Gentiles as seen in verses 13-15.

I'm not confused about these clear facts. It is you who must provide the link from the referent in 3-12 to the referent in 13-14 concerning these matters. The text does not provide the link, you must assume it is there.

You claim that people are not answering your arguments... you must first make one for them to answer.

If I haven't made any arguments worth answering, why are you here?

I've met few Calvinist who think any Arminian's arguments are worthy of response, yet they just keep responding. It must be another one of them paradoxes.

 

[William C]

Originally posted by Frogman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> The teacher responds: Well, Npety, that's not very nice to speak that way to fellow believers. Do we need to go through that again for you slower. Look at verse 8 that we just read together, "he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom.." Now, let me ask you a question. Do the first century Christians act in God's wisdom? Or is it the apostles through the spoken and written word who impart to them the wisdom of God to show them how they should act?" Before you answer you may want to look at the problems in the first century churches.

Bro. Bill,

This argument could be used to say that only Paul was elected. How??

Because each of the Apostles left Christ when he was arrested; Peter openly denied him, even in His presence, later Peter also feared the Jews to the point that he was withstood by Paul. Yeah, only Paul acted in the wisdom revealed to him from God, thus only Paul was elected.

Paul, once converted never denied Christ, never stood with the Jews because he feared persecution, yeah, I believe these facts would show us the election of Paul and the fact that these other men were believers because they chose to be; thus their weaknesses are more apparent.
</font>[/QUOTE]Dallas,

Careful now. Are you saying that everyone is as wise as the Apostles were in the inspired writings.

I never said the men were perfect. I said they were given the wisdom of God in order to make it known to us.

You seem to be questioning that wisdom. Please explain yourself.

With Respect,
Bill

 

[Frogman]

But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Paul seems to lump himself with all believers.

More later.

Bro. Dallas

 

[William C]

Originally posted by Frogman:
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Paul seems to lump himself with all believers.

Paul's example of humility, like Christ's example, in no way lessons his God given authority in imparting the wisdom of God to us.

Yes, his weakness showed God's glory but his authority in displaying God's wisdom to us should not be undermined to prove your assumptions.

Bill

 

[grateful4grace]

ealed was that men are predestined to salvation, v. 5-7, "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace where in he hath made us accepted in the beloved, In whom we have redeption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace." To the degree that you will attempt to posit that these verses teach that this is not speaking of predestination to salvation, but to the office of preaching, then to that degree you will CONTINUE to embarass your position. But that's OK by me.... its good for the cause. That's why we keep responding, Bill.

g4g

Was responding to:

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by grateful4grace:
I must wholly agree with those who have reckoned your challenge as empty and without merit. You are wholly confounding the matter of WHAT was revealed with WHO it was revealed to,

What was revealed? The mysteries: which is that God has provided "The WAY" for salvation to the Gentiles.

Who revealed this mystery? God

To whom did he reveal this mystery too? Apostles and Prophets.

Who did the apostles (namely Paul) reveal it to? The Gentiles as seen in verses 13-15.

I'm not confused about these clear facts. It is you who must provide the link from the referent in 3-12 to the referent in 13-14 concerning these matters. The text does not provide the link, you must assume it is there.

You claim that people are not answering your arguments... you must first make one for them to answer.

If I haven't made any arguments worth answering, why are you here?

I've met few Calvinist who think any Arminian's arguments are worthy of response, yet they just keep responding. It must be another one of them paradoxes.

</font>[/QUOTE]

[ February 15, 2003, 08:21 PM: Message edited by: grateful4grace ]

 

[William C]

Originally posted by grateful4grace:
ealed was that men are predestined to salvation, v. 5-7, "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace where in he hath made us accepted in the beloved, In whom we have redeption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace." To the degree that you will attempt to posit that these verses teach that this is not speaking of predestination to salvation, but to the office of preaching, then to that degree you will CONTINUE to embarass your position. But that's OK by me.... its good for the cause. That's why we keep responding, Bill.

You must be new to our discussion. I provide an interpretation to Eph. 1 in my thread titled "I'm sorry, We all make assumptions, lets START OVER"

I explain there that the apostles are the referants in verses 3-12 while Paul is using the "us/we" pronouns but his referant obviously changes from him and those "who first trusted in Christ" to his audience, "those who believed through their message" when his pronouns change to "you in verses 13 and following. You can see the full argument if you read through that thread.

I never state that the apostles are merely being predestined to preach as you seem to assert. You may need to explain further. Thanks.

With Respect,
Bro. Bill

 

[npetreley]

Mr Bill:

Here is the foundation for your argument.

He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs

From this, you conclude that the mystery was revealed only to the apostles and prophets (although you like to leave out the prophets part because it undermines your argument). Compare to:

Colossians 1:25 ...of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, 26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.

So when you tie Ephesians 3 to Ephesians 1:9 and then arbitrarily start playing with pronouns in order to make your point, you have based it on a false premise. The reason you continue to think your argument remains unrefuted is that your premise has no merit, and therefore there is no reason to "untie" it from Ephesians 1:9.

You ignored the obvious (that Ephesians 1 itself reveals the mystery to the saints), so you will certainly ignore this clear text and insist your argument stands. So don't be surprised if you run out of people who are willing to discuss these things with you.

 

[William C]

You just don't seem to understand that there are two beings doing the revealling and two groups doing the listening.

God reveals it first. To whom?

The Apostle during NT times and the Prophets in the OT times (this in no way undermines my argument, it actually strengthens it)

Who reveals this mystery the second time, and to whom? The Prophets and the Apostles. Specifically the apostles make this mystery clearly known to the saints using the Prophets words as support.

So, lets follow the order. God to Messengers; then Messengers to Saints. With that in mind what does Eph. 1:8-9 say? "He [GOD] made abound toward US in all wisdom and prudence, have made known to us the mystery of His will."

God the first to do the revealing, made know to US (the messengers)

However, I do understand your point. You saying that God made known the mystery of His will to all the saints through his messengers but Paul just doesn't refer to those messengers in this text. Right?

Well, then your the one who has to assume that is what Paul's intention is here, because that is not what the text specifically says. Even Sturgman, who shows intergity and objectivity, says, "This could be taken both ways." In your stubbornness and obvious bitterness toward me, you won't even admit that.

Npetreley, the argument that I'm refering to you ignoring concerns the point that your assumption is weakened by the fact that his REFERANT obviously changes in verse 13. This point you have ignored and dismissed as being a joke in your eyes calling it "pronounism" as if its a new argument. Yet, you ignorant of the fact that there are many commentators, if not most of them, that reconize this change in pronouns as an obvious change in those to whom he is referring. You're not willing to admit that because that would weaken if not completely destroy the assumption that you make concerning verse 9. Thus, you have avoided the argument altogether.

Bill