Ananais and Sapphira...lost?

[webdog]

Dr. Riddlebarger makes plenty of assumptions in that article, but it sounds more like he's trying to convince himself using the reformed position, rather than look at it in context of Acts 1-5. As believers, if we resist the devil he will flee from us. This verse shows that A&S did no such thing...
Act 5:4 Wasn't it yours while you possessed it? And after it was sold, wasn't it at your disposal? Why is it that you planned this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God!"

 

[James_Newman]

--part of an article by Dr. Ken Riddlebarger:

The biggest question is simply whether or not Ananias and Sapphira were even Christians. The text does not tell us specifically, though at first glance it appears that they were. Yet upon further reflection, however, I think the case becomes clear that they were not Christians at all, as the deceit and hypocrisy evident in their actions make clear. Peter attributes their actions ultimately to Satan, when he says to Ananias, "Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to God the Holy Spirit." The language Peter uses here sounds a great deal like that used by our Lord in reference to Judas. In Luke 22:3 (cf. John 13:26), we are told that "Satan entered into Judas," and in John 6:71, Judas is spoken of as a "devil." In John 13:2, we are told that the devil put it into Judas' heart to betray Jesus. By contrast, when Satan desired to do the same to Peter, he was prevented from doing so. In Luke 22:31, we read, Peter, "Satan has asked to sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for you...that your faith will not fail." The point is that all believers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption, and that Jesus intercedes for all believers. Can Satan have his way with someone indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and for whom our Lord intercedes?
​

Where did he find out that Satan did not sift Peter? Rather it seemed the opposite, as Peter denied Christ three times. Did God not allow Satan to sift Job?

It is Jesus himself who declares "I know my sheep and I give them eternal life, no one shall snatch them out of my hand." Thus, if Ananias and Saphirra were truly Christians, a number of serious questions arise.

But rather than examine these questions, we will choose to believe that they were not really saved.

Now it is certainly possible to read this as many do, that Luke has in view God judging two disobedient Christians by exposing their sin and by cutting short their earthly lives, but the similarity of language between this account and that of Judas leads me to conclude that these two were not believers. But no matter how we interpret this, we cannot downplay the intent to warn all Christians that God regards hypocrisy as a great evil and that such actions are subject to his judgement. This section does indeed end with the strong warning "great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events," and we misinterpret the text if we downplay the seriousness of hypocrisy and deceit, of which we are all quite capable.

How does this serve to warn Christians, if we disqualify hypocrites from being Christians in the first place? Further down the author states that a Christian need not fear the fate of Ananias coming upon them. What then is the Christian to fear?

Luke's point becomes clear, I think, when we view in the context of that which we have already seen in Acts. God will judge every infraction of his Law, perhaps now and certainly in the final judgement, and when we see such clear examples of this, all of us should shudder. It was Moses who wrote in Numbers 32:23 "that you can be sure that your sin will find you out," and none of us can ever be sure that God will not bring our secret sins to light. Such remains his prerogative. Calvin is certainly right when he states, this account "is [given to us] to reflect upon how one day we shall come to stand before His judgement-seat....In the bodily punishment of these two, there has been set before us, as in a mirror, the gravity of spiritual judgement which it still hidden."(2) Thus the death of Ananias and Sapphira intended to be a graphic picture and testimony to all what lies ahead in the judgment.

Indeed.

And indeed, what befalls them is a type of the judgment which is coming upon the world when our Lord Jesus returns to earth on the last day. Hypocrites be warned, what happened to Ananias and Sapphira will happen to you. And you cannot stand.

But what about Christians?

But this while this should indeed lead us to fear God and stand in awe of his Holy and righteous judgments, let us never forget that when God's dear Son was lifted upon a cross for the sins of the world, the Scriptures are clear that Jesus' death was a propitiation, literally the offering of a sacrifice sufficient to turn aside Gods righteous anger toward those for whom Christ has died. If you are a believer in Jesus Christ you can be assured that God's anger toward every sin that you have ever committed, are now committing, and will yet commit has been forever removed. God's anger toward your public and hidden sins was instead aimed at his own Son, and if you are in Christ, you can be assured that Satan cannot enter you, exposing you to such immediate wrath. Though God may indeed expose your secret sins, you need not fear of being stricken dead -- for Jesus Christ has been stricken dead for us, and even now he is in heaven praying for us so that Satan cannot have his way with us. For it is only through the cross that we can freely approach God and that we can know that our own deceit and hypocrisy have been washed away by the blood of Christ.

I think the message here is 'make sure you really are saved, because if you just think your a believer, God is going to kill you.' But if you really are saved, you have nothing to fear for your sins, because God already killed Jesus for you. But that hardly explains why the church feared after these things occured, unless the church wasn't really the church. Maybe they were just the professing church.
​

 

[2BHizown]

I think the message here is 'make sure you really are saved, because if you just think your a believer, God is going to kill you.' But if you really are saved, you have nothing to fear for your sins, because God already killed Jesus for you. But that hardly explains why the church feared after these things occured, unless the church wasn't really the church. Maybe they were just the professing church.

In the very early days of the forming church God used means to shape, discipline and govern His church. As I mentioned before, even those taking the Lord's Supper inappropriately experienced loss of their life. This was for the purpose of placing a holy reverence for God in the hearts!
The whole of 1 John is a test to make sure you are in fact a believer! We're not talking head knowledge but having a regenerated heart!
Apparently Ananias and Sapphira were 'professors' but did not truly have a relationship with Christ, were not regenerate, not justified. If so they never would have done so heinous a sin as to lie to the HS.
All christians sin but they dont continue in a lifestyle of sin, scheme and plot to deceive God Himself!

 

[James_Newman]

In the very early days of the forming church God used means to shape, discipline and govern His church. As I mentioned before, even those taking the Lord's Supper inappropriately experienced loss of their life. This was for the purpose of placing a holy reverence for God in the hearts!
The whole of 1 John is a test to make sure you are in fact a believer! We're not talking head knowledge but having a regenerated heart!
Apparently Ananias and Sapphira were 'professors' but did not truly have a relationship with Christ, were not regenerate, not justified. If so they never would have done so heinous a sin as to lie to the HS.
All christians sin but they dont continue in a lifestyle of sin, scheme and plot to deceive God Himself!

Have you passed the test yet?

 

[Hope of Glory]

--part of an article by Dr. Ken Riddlebarger:
...Yet upon further reflection, however, I think the case becomes clear that they were not Christians at all, as the deceit and hypocrisy evident in their actions make clear.

Riddlebarger is promoting a works-based spiritual salvation. This should be enough of a clue right here to dismiss what he is saying.

I guess what it boils down to, from Riddlebarger's perspective, is that you must make sure that you are really, really, really, really truly saved, and if your works don't reflect that, then you're not.

 

[webdog]

Is this not the stance of Lordship Salvation, HoG?

 

[webdog]

Originally Posted by 2BHizown
Apparently Ananias and Sapphira were 'professors' but did not truly have a relationship with Christ, were not regenerate, not justified. If so they never would have done so heinous a sin as to lie to the HS.

2B, is your mind swayed so easily? Only two pages back you stated the following:

Ananias and Sapphira were believers of the NT church. They failed to resist tempation and lied to the HS. God used them as he used others to teach us the danger of sin, a warning to teach us to call on Him in the time of being tempted and to resist Satan and he will flee from us.
Uzza meant well but lost his life.
David sinned mightily but was repentant.
God has His own purposes. Another example is the ones in 1 Cor. taking the Lord's Supper inappropriately that lost their life.

One flawed article changed your view totally?

 

[J. Jump]

Is this not the stance of Lordship Salvation

Yes that is Lordship salvation in a nutshell.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Is this not the stance of Lordship Salvation, HoG?

Yep.

We had a guest speaker try to promote that garbage. We politely showed him the door.

 

[2BHizown]

Riddlebarger is promoting a works-based spiritual salvation. This should be enough of a clue right here to dismiss what he is saying.

I guess what it boils down to, from Riddlebarger's perspective, is that you must make sure that you are really, really, really, really truly saved, and if your works don't reflect that, then you're not.

Actually that is true according to scripture!
Examine yourself to see if you're in the faith, dont you know Jesus Christ lives in you; unless that is, you fail the test! 2 Cor. 13:5

Works are evidence of regeneration, not a means to obtain such!
James 2:14-26 shows us that faith results in good works. If we are truly believers we will love the brethren and care for them! 'Faith without works is dead'!
The works are constantly demonstrating your relationship with Christ and that you have been justified!
Before speaking of 'garbage' it would be good to verify scriptural teachings!

 

[James_Newman]

Actually that is true according to scripture!
Examine yourself to see if you're in the faith, dont you know Jesus Christ lives in you; unless that is, you fail the test! 2 Cor. 13:5

Works are evidence of regeneration, not a means to obtain such!
James 2:14-26 shows us that faith results in good works. If we are truly believers we will love the brethren and care for them! 'Faith without works is dead'!
The works are constantly demonstrating your relationship with Christ and that you have been justified!
Before speaking of 'garbage' it would be good to verify scriptural teachings!

Nay, James 2 shows us that faith alone cannot save a man, and that a man is justified by works as well as faith. It says nothing about works being the result of faith. It is also written to folks that are already saved by faith alone, so it is talking about another type of salvation.

 

[2BHizown]

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he tht doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in tht day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in they name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you; depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Therefore, whosoever heareth these sayings of mine and doeth them, I will liken him to a wise man, which built his house on a rock!
Matthew 7:21-25

 

[James_Newman]

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he tht doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in tht day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in they name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you; depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Therefore, whosoever heareth these sayings of mine and doeth them, I will liken him to a wise man, which built his house on a rock!
Matthew 7:21-25

Amen, brother. But the kingdom of heaven is not the free gift of eternal salvation. It is a reward for faithful service.

 

[James_Newman]

The title of this thread should be 'Ananias and Sapphira... lost the kingdom?'

 

[2BHizown]

To build on the rock means to be a practicing, obedient disciple of Jesus Christ, having the solid foundation to survive the storms of life.
There are many who think they are good, solid, christians when in reality faith in Christ is what will count at the judgment. This faith is exhibited on earth by loving the brethren and caring for them, doing the works of God while there is time!

 

[James_Newman]

To build on the rock means to be a practicing, obedient disciple of Jesus Christ, having the solid foundation to survive the storms of life.
There are many who think they are good, solid, christians when in reality faith in Christ is what will count at the judgment. This faith is exhibited on earth by loving the brethren and caring for them, doing the works of God while there is time!

We cannot confuse building on the Rock with believing on the Rock. Jesus said that whoever believed on Him would be raised up on the last day. They may build their house all over the beach and it may get washed away and they may be ashamed at the judgment seat of Christ with Ananias and Sapphira and they may miss out on reigning with Christ... but they will still be raised up on the last day.

 

[2BHizown]

That no-lordship error is so dangerous to the soul of so many!
My prayer is that those who believe such will be led to study His word further seeking clearer and accurate views!
God bless!

 

[James_Newman]

That no-lordship error is so dangerous to the soul of so many!
My prayer is that those who believe such will be led to study His word further seeking clearer and accurate views!
God bless!

I'm not saying that a believers soul is not in peril, brother. Rather I affirm it, brother. Christ would not have us lukewarm, and we may find ourselves spewed out of His mouth. But nevertheless, to add conditions to the free gift of salvation is to nullify the blood of Christ. He said believe.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

The text doesn't say satan literally entered Annanais and Sapphira. Do you believe satan can influence your decisions? You imply he can't. I understand satan cannot co-exist with the Holy Spirit...I never stated that, nor implied that.

You are confused...

First, you claim that it does not say that Satan entered Ananias and Sapphira but it does.

"Eipe de Petros 'Anania, dia ti eplarosen o Satanas tan kardian..'"

But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart..."

You can go monkey around with the text but I will chose to believe that the Bible says what it means and means what it says.

Second, you clearly state, "I understand satan cannot co-exist with the Holy Spirit." Well, let me ask you this, how can Satan, who is not omni-present/science/powerful, come into your thoughts if the Lord is present in your body? This does not say that you have allowed your own sinful nature to do this or so. No it states that Satan has filled their hearts. Satan does not have the power to oppress/possess/infill/or place thoughts in your mind. He is not God and never will be. He only has the power to be in one place at one time. And he is not welcome nor able to enter the holy of holies, the temple of the Holy Spirit, which is your mind/body/soul, if you are born again and bought with the blood of Jesus. There is power in the blood!

 

[James_Newman]

You are confused...

First, you claim that it does not say that Satan entered Ananias and Sapphira but it does.

"Eipe de Petros 'Anania, dia ti eplarosen o Satanas tan kardian..'"

But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart..."

You can go monkey around with the text but I will chose to believe that the Bible says what it means and means what it says.

Second, you clearly state, "I understand satan cannot co-exist with the Holy Spirit." Well, let me ask you this, how can Satan, who is not omni-present/science/powerful, come into your thoughts if the Lord is present in your body? This does not say that you have allowed your own sinful nature to do this or so. No it states that Satan has filled their hearts. Satan does not have the power to oppress/possess/infill/or place thoughts in your mind. He is not God and never will be. He only has the power to be in one place at one time. And he is not welcome nor able to enter the holy of holies, the temple of the Holy Spirit, which is your mind/body/soul, if you are born again and bought with the blood of Jesus. There is power in the blood!

James 4:7
7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

BPT, if Satan could have no influence on a believer, why would we have verses like this in the bible?