Ananais and Sapphira...lost?

[webdog]

What I said is that there are many in the church who claim to be Christians but are not and Maybe they were never Christians to start with for they were full of "greed" and they were liars and theives. I find it hard to believe a true Christian are those things.

I agree there are false disciples. Back up to the end of chapter 4 and we see that those who sold their possessions were of "one heart and one soul". Satan intervened and "filled" their hearts with greed in between the end of chapter 4 and when they kicked the bucket. Believe me, I have seen true Christians do much worse than lie about their income!

If you don't believe in a fall from Grace then how could these two have been Christians to start with, a Christian don't do the things they did.

Brother, true Christians do much worse and lie to God on a daily basis. What Christian hasn't lied to God?

I am not saying I am right on this but I am one who believes a Christian is a better person than a worldly person and is kept by the power of God.

I do believe believers are kept by the power of God...but we are hardly better than the lost. Just saved by grace.

The scriptures say there will be no liars in Heaven and these two lied.

Could this not apply to every human ever born? That's why context is so important.

 

[webdog]

Tell me something James;
Just how far do you believe a Christian can go? Can they kill, commit adultery, worship idols, dishonor their father and mother, covet their neighbor's wife, lie, steal what kind of a Christian do you advocate anyway?

I'm sure James will answer on his own, but I say yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes and yes. These are sins. Christians sin. Any Christian at any given time can give in to the flesh. We are to be "dead to sin", but we are not "dead from sinning". To say true Christians cannot commit these sins is placing works into the salvation equation.

 

[James_Newman]

Tell me something James;
Just how far do you believe a Christian can go? Can they kill, commit adultery, worship idols, dishonor their father and mother, covet their neighbor's wife, lie, steal what kind of a Christian do you advocate anyway?

Also, with my whole being I try not to lie. A lie is to try and deceive someone else. Maybe you do but speak for yourself.

Like webdog said, yes yes yes yes yes yes and yes. I don't advocate these things for believers. In fact I will tell any one who is living in sin that they will have to appear at the judgment seat of Christ to recieve for those sins. Christians have to fear God if they are going to have any hope of getting victory over the flesh. Most churches today have lost the fear of God and that is why they are full of open rebellion. My own father-in-law the other day tells me that at the church he is attending, they recently baptized a couple who were living together unmarried. He confronts the pastor about it, and come find out, there are at least eight couples in the church living in sin. Why is this? It is because there is no fear of God before their eyes. Why should they get married? They are just going to die and go to heaven and get a crown and go play hopscotch on the streets of gold, right? Christians have no motivation to overcome sin, and if the best reason that we can come up with is, 'well if your not living right, you might not really be saved,' well now we've gone and messed up the gospel. What must I do to be saved?

 

[Brother Bob]

I'm sure James will answer on his own, but I say yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes and yes. These are sins. Christians sin. Any Christian at any given time can give in to the flesh. We are to be "dead to sin", but we are not "dead from sinning". To say true Christians cannot commit these sins is placing works into the salvation equation.__________________

So, be indwelt with the Holy Spirit and born again Christian and have your steps ordered of the Lord and then you can do anything you want. Sorry, I just don't believe that.

I know what the word says:
Revelation, chapter 21


"27": And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

1 Corinthians, chapter 3

"17": If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Sure is a dangereous way to live.

Like webdog said, yes yes yes yes yes yes and yes. I don't advocate these things for believers. In fact I will tell any one who is living in sin that they will have to appear at the judgment seat of Christ to recieve for those sins. Christians have to fear God if they are going to have any hope of getting victory over the flesh. Most churches today have lost the fear of God and that is why they are full of open rebellion. My own father-in-law the other day tells me that at the church he is attending, they recently baptized a couple who were living together unmarried. He confronts the pastor about it, and come find out, there are at least eight couples in the church living in sin. Why is this? It is because there is no fear of God before their eyes. Why should they get married? They are just going to die and go to heaven and get a crown and go play hopscotch on the streets of gold, right? Christians have no motivation to overcome sin, and if the best reason that we can come up with is, 'well if your not living right, you might not really be saved,' well now we've gone and messed up the gospel. What must I do to be saved?

Hogwash! It says from such to withdraw yourself.

 

[James_Newman]

1 Corinthians, chapter 3

"17": If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Sure is a dangereous way to live.

Amen to that!

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

What seems to be happening here, is that you guys are in effect debating "easy believism" vs. "Lordship salvation."

True faith in Christ is not meritorious or earned, Eph 2:8-9, but it is evident based on your works. Jesus said as much "You will know them by their fruits", as did James, "Faith without works is dead."

I have been arguing all along that this is also a sufficiency of Christ issue as well. Christ is sufficient to deliver us from the power of Satan and preserve us until glory.

Also, I brought up the blasphemy issue because lying to the Holy Spirit is blasphemy. While you can say that others lied about their income, you cannot know that they lied to the Holy Spirit, only God knows that.

When Bob quotes Rev. about liars not entering the kingdom, I take that to mean that those are liars by lifestyle and before God. Not everyone is a liar who lies but liars are those who lie habitually. Habitual sin or lifestyle sin is what discredits false believers. That is why adultery is also a lifestyle sin, and not those who suffer from an isolated lapse or weakness.

Moreover, behold the old has passed away and the new has come must mean something. If Jesus is not Lord of all he is not Lord at all!

 

[James_Newman]

What seems to be happening here, is that you guys are in effect debating "easy believism" vs. "Lordship salvation."

True faith in Christ is not meritorious or earned, Eph 2:8-9, but it is evident based on your works. Jesus said as much "You will know them by their fruits", as did James, "Faith without works is dead."

I have been arguing all along that this is also a sufficiency of Christ issue as well. Christ is sufficient to deliver us from the power of Satan and preserve us until glory.

Also, I brought up the blasphemy issue because lying to the Holy Spirit is blasphemy. While you can say that others lied about their income, you cannot know that they lied to the Holy Spirit, only God knows that.

When Bob quotes Rev. about liars not entering the kingdom, I take that to mean that those are liars by lifestyle and before God. Not everyone is a liar who lies but liars are those who lie habitually. Habitual sin or lifestyle sin is what discredits false believers. That is why adultery is also a lifestyle sin, and not those who suffer from an isolated lapse or weakness.

Moreover, behold the old has passed away and the new has come must mean something. If Jesus is not Lord of all he is not Lord at all!

When Bob quotes Rev. about liars not entering the kingdom, I take that to mean that there is a kingdom that liars do not enter.

2 Peter 1:10-11
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

James 2:5
5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

2 Thessalonians 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

We must labor to enter into that kingdom. This is all about works. But this is in contrast to the promise of salvation on the last day to whoever will believe.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

A believer may not be accounted worthy to enter that kingdom, and yet still partake of the promise of being raised up on the last day.

 

[webdog]

So, be indwelt with the Holy Spirit and born again Christian and have your steps ordered of the Lord and then you can do anything you want. Sorry, I just don't believe that.

Good, because I don't believe that either. Big difference in "living any way you want" and giving in to the sin nature and commiting the sins you listed.

Hogwash! It says from such to withdraw yourself.

Meaning what? Not to live in blatant rebellion like they. Nothing about being able to commit the sin they commit, however. This is the point of disagreement with Ananais and Sapphira. You state a true believer cannot do what they did, and I know that every believer has in fact lied to God at some point in their life. The text does not say Ananais and Sapphira were living in blatant sin, but satan filled their heart at some point between the end of Acts 4 and the time they sinned against God. The great fear over the church resulted in the fact that every believer there at some point lied to God, and they were fearful that they were next to drop dead! Here's where Romans 9 is correctly applied...

Rom 9:15 For He tells Moses: I will show mercy to whom I show mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.

 

[James_Newman]

Good, because I don't believe that either. Big difference in "living any way you want" and giving in to the sin nature and commiting the sins you listed.

How is that different?

Hebrews 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

When Bob quotes Rev. about liars not entering the kingdom, I take that to mean that there is a kingdom that liars do not enter.

2 Peter 1:10-11
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

James 2:5
5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

2 Thessalonians 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

We must labor to enter into that kingdom. This is all about works. But this is in contrast to the promise of salvation on the last day to whoever will believe.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

A believer may not be accounted worthy to enter that kingdom, and yet still partake of the promise of being raised up on the last day.

The fact remains that all people tell lies but not all people are liars. In order to understand what the passage means when it says that liars will not enter the kingdom of heaven, you have to understand what constitutes a liar or an adulterer, etc.

Matt. 18 was given to expel from the church false believers with the hope that they would repent and genuinely convert.

Given conversion yields a changed life, if there is no change then there is no Jesus. Behold the new has come and the old has passed away. Let those who steal steal no more.

You must be born again to enter the kingdom to which Bob is making reference and those who have habitual lifestyle sin issues who are unrepentant and unwilling to change do not reflect a transformation that is evident and necessarily to have assurance of salvation. That is why the Bible tells us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling and to make your election sure.

 

[webdog]

How is that different?

Hebrews 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

Living in blatant rebellion is not the same thing as "striving" against it. Case in point...I can choose to diregard the command to not lust and undress every woman with my eyes I come into contact with, and I can also walk by a woman have struggle with the thought in my head and heart that it would be sin to turn around and undress her with my eyes...and give into the flesh and do it. difference is in attitude.

 

[webdog]

The fact remains that all people tell lies but not all people are liars.

If you tell a single lie...what does that make you?

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

If you tell a single lie...what does that make you?

Everyone who has ever been born, except for Jesus has told at least one lie. Liars are those who have a reputation of telling lies under oath. The ten commandments do not prohibit lying per se. It is actually a more technical phrase that says do not swear a false witness. To swear a false witness is to swear a lie before God under oath. Ananias had done this exact thing and before the Holy Spirit, which different than just telling a white lie.

 

[webdog]

Everyone who has ever been born, except for Jesus has told at least one lie. Liars are those who have a reputation of telling lies under oath. The ten commandments do not prohibit lying per se. It is actually a more technical phrase that says do not swear a false witness. To swear a false witness is to swear a lie before God under oath. Ananias had done this exact thing and before the Holy Spirit, which different than just telling a white lie.

You didn't answer the question...if you tell a single lie, what does that make you? Your answer sounded like that of the lost folks Ray Comfort interviews on the street.

 

[James_Newman]

The fact remains that all people tell lies but not all people are liars. In order to understand what the passage means when it says that liars will not enter the kingdom of heaven, you have to understand what constitutes a liar or an adulterer, etc.

Matt. 18 was given to expel from the church false believers with the hope that they would repent and genuinely convert.

Given conversion yields a changed life, if there is no change then there is no Jesus. Behold the new has come and the old has passed away. Let those who steal steal no more.

You must be born again to enter the kingdom to which Bob is making reference and those who have habitual lifestyle sin issues who are unrepentant and unwilling to change do not reflect a transformation that is evident and necessarily to have assurance of salvation. That is why the Bible tells us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling and to make your election sure.

You must be born again to see the kingdom. You must enter the kingdom through faith and patience. You must have works to have any type of hope of entering the kingdom, but the eternal security of the believer is based on Christ's work, not my own. If a believer is made a new creature, it does not follow that he will automatically put on the new man and walk in him. This is a command to a believer, is it not?

Ephesians 4:22-24
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Before you can put on the new man, you must have a new man to put on. Any believer has access to this new man, but that doesn't mean they will put it on. Any believer has the power to overcome sin through the Holy Spirit, but that doesn't mean they will avail themselves of that power.

 

[2BHizown]

This horse has just about been beaten to death but if we're still pondering what more we can squeeze out of it I'll add a thought or two!

With all that God DID tell in His word, to have left out the eternal outcome in this scenario says much! We know the secret things belong to the Lord and He is not accountable to share them with us unless He chooses. This is cause to ponder and search and pray for light.

In the verse that clearly states, 'Great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.'

Do we not see a need to have great reverence and awe here, with an intense respect to every word of scripture and to abide and take the lessons personally to heart? There is no playing around here, no email jokes, no lightheared fare, but a deep awareness that we have our God to thank for the very breath we are presently taking and that it is only by His grace!
Such as in the OT when those who appeared to commit what we might be inclined to think of as a minor infraction, as Uzzah, making an effort to be helpful and steady the ark, died on the spot! Rather sad, however, God had given His instructions as to how the ark was to be transported, not by cart, but by His specific details!
Good intentions just are not impressive with God! He desires obedience, reverence and awe! Eternity is serious business!

 

[Brother Bob]

Good intentions just are not impressive with God! He desires obedience, reverence and awe! Eternity is serious business!

Amen to that brother; I never knew churches allowed people to stay as members who were adulterers, liars, killers, worship idols until I came on BB. If anyone advocated such doctrine in our church we would ask him to leave.

Is there anyone on here who had a member who had a "golden calf" in the back yard and fell down every day and worshipped it, would you allow him to stay a member of your (God's) church? Do you have a limit where you would withdraw from a diobeident member?

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

You must be born again to see the kingdom. You must enter the kingdom through faith and patience. You must have works to have any type of hope of entering the kingdom, but the eternal security of the believer is based on Christ's work, not my own. If a believer is made a new creature, it does not follow that he will automatically put on the new man and walk in him. This is a command to a believer, is it not?

Ephesians 4:22-24
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Before you can put on the new man, you must have a new man to put on. Any believer has access to this new man, but that doesn't mean they will put it on. Any believer has the power to overcome sin through the Holy Spirit, but that doesn't mean they will avail themselves of that power.

What you are presenting is the classical view of those who ascribe to easy believism. In easy believism faith and morality are removed from any type of material interplay. Hence, Bill Clinton could profess to be a Christian and do all that he did, among other things support the pro-choice and gay rights movement.

I do not agree that you can be born again and not have a change, that is entirely oxymoronic. Behold the old has passed away and new has come. Let him who steals steal no more. Jesus said unless you repent you will all likewise perish.

 

[James_Newman]

What you are presenting is the classical view of those who ascribe to easy believism. In easy believism faith and morality are removed from any type of material interplay. Hence, Bill Clinton could profess to be a Christian and do all that he did, among other things support the pro-choice and gay rights movement.

I do not agree that you can be born again and not have a change, that is entirely oxymoronic. Behold the old has passed away and new has come. Let him who steals steal no more. Jesus said unless you repent you will all likewise perish.

If there were no truth to easy-believism, I would surely abandon it. But where easy-believism fails is in its understanding of all the warning passages to Christians regarding maintaining good works. To see a born-again state with no change, one must only turn to the book of 1 Corinthians.

1 Corinthians 3:1-3
1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Paul doesn't tell these carnal babes in Christ that they need to repent and really believe the Gospel and be born again again. He simply warns them of the judgment to come. That's the milk!

1 Corinthians 3:14-17
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

If any man defile the temple (which temple ye are) him shall God destroy. Unbelievers are not the temple of God. Unbelievers do not defile the temple with their works of wood, hay and stubble. This is for Christians. But how did the Corinthians become Christians? They believed on Jesus Christ, who justifieth the ungodly.

The fact is there is a manner in which a believer, justified by faith, can be destroyed. Nevertheless, God is able to raise him up again and fulfill His promise to whosoever believes.

 

[2BHizown]

NO James, sorry that is error!