Andersonville question

[webdog]

Before you flame me, I have been through the archives and have read what most have said about them (from a mill, to a reputable school). I'm leaning towards them being closer to a mill, but after emailing them, here are the schools that they claim accept their credits...

Lindowood University accepted bachelor’s degree
St. Charles, MO
Bob Jones University accepted credits for at least 1 student
Bethel Seminary West
San Diego, CA
American Christian College and Seminary
Oklahoma City, OK
accs.edu
Liberty University accepted bachelor’s degree for entrance to Master of Arts in Min
Lynchburg, VA and Master of Divinity (a number of students have reported)
I have several students’ acceptance letters for verification. This
school accepts our degrees, but not individual credits. In
December, 2007, a student reported being accepted in the doctorate
program at Liberty with 90 credit hours at the graduate level from
Andersonville Theological Seminary.

Dallas Theological Seminary accepted credits for at least 1 student
(reported by student, not verified)
Trinity Theological Seminary
Newburgh, IN accepted 9 hours toward the completion of a PhD
Vision International accepted bachelor’s degree
Ramona, CA required 30 credits of General Ed courses from
secular college
Lancaster Bible College
Lancaster, PA accepted credits. Allowed student to complete general ed
classes only by attending classes one day a week or totally
online (student choice). This student was interested in a
degree that would be recognized by the military for
the chaplaincy. Lancaster meets the requirements for the
Chaplain Candidate Program and is regionally accredited.

My question is... Liberty?!? Has either Liberty's standards declined, or has Andersonville's standards increased for them to accept the BA from Andersonville?

 

[Rhetorician]

Webdog Response

Before you flame me, I have been through the archives and have read what most have said about them (from a mill, to a reputable school). I'm leaning towards them being closer to a mill, but after emailing them, here are the schools that they claim accept their credits...

Lindowood University accepted bachelor’s degree
St. Charles, MO
Bob Jones University accepted credits for at least 1 student
Bethel Seminary West
San Diego, CA
American Christian College and Seminary
Oklahoma City, OK
accs.edu
Liberty University accepted bachelor’s degree for entrance to Master of Arts in Min
Lynchburg, VA and Master of Divinity (a number of students have reported)
I have several students’ acceptance letters for verification. This
school accepts our degrees, but not individual credits. In
December, 2007, a student reported being accepted in the doctorate
program at Liberty with 90 credit hours at the graduate level from
Anderson ville Theological Seminary.

Dallas Theological Seminary accepted credits for at least 1 student
(reported by student, not verified)
Trinity Theological Seminary
Newburgh, IN accepted 9 hours toward the completion of a PhD
Vision International accepted bachelor’s degree
Ramona, CA required 30 credits of General Ed courses from
secular college
Lancaster Bible College
Lancaster, PA accepted credits. Allowed student to complete general ed
classes only by attending classes one day a week or totally
on line (student choice). This student was interested in a
degree that would be recognized by the military for
the chaplaincy. Lancaster meets the requirements for the
Chaplain Candidate Program and is regionally accredited.

My question is... Liberty?!? Has either Liberty's standards declined, or has Andersonville's standards increased for them to accept the BA from Andersonville?

Webdog,

No one wants to "flame you!"

May I answer your question with a question? This seems especially relevant at this point. After doing all of the research on the BB, "why" would you lean towards a "mill degree" still?

"That is all!"

 

[webdog]

Webdog,

No one wants to "flame you!"

May I answer your question with a question? This seems especially relevant at this point. After doing all of the research on the BB, "why" would you lean towards a "mill degree" still?

"That is all!"

Are you asking why I am leaning towards them being a degree mill...because I don't recall in my OP stating I was leaning towards attending Andersonville. If it's the former, my view of them being "millish" has to do with what I have read about their work simplicity and load. That is what is confusing me in regards to Liberty accepting their degree. Has Liberty's standards recently fallen, or has Andersonville's recently risen?

 

[TCGreek]

Not all UA schools are substandard. Whitefield theological seminary isn't, though they are on record of not seeking government accredition.

CES has on its site of their grads being accepted in accredited program. CES doesn't seem substandard to me.

LBU, though Liberty has accepted its credits and grads, I'll have to consider substandard but better than a Bethany and Andersonville.

Why Liberty accepts credits from LBU, I don't know? I know the late Dr. Falwell spoke at one of ther graduations, and now Dr. Caner, president of Liberty Seminary, is scheduled to do the same this May.

 

[webdog]

TCG, I'm still wanting to know if Liberty's standards have decreased or if Andersonville's has increased. Why else would Liberty accept transfers from Andersonville's undergrad program to their grad program? I'm confused by Liberty accepting ANTHING from Andersonville!

 

[TCGreek]

Webdog, Martin is a grad of Liberty and keeps up with the issues; I guess he'll eventually chime in on this one.

Liberty may have lowered its standards, for Andersonville appears the same.

 

[mcdirector]

I find it odd that Liberty will accept Andersonville's degrees but not individual credits?

Distance education was once one of my hobbies. At one time, in association with serving on SACS/ACSI accreditation teams, I did a little research on some UA schools with distance programs and how their credits/degrees could be used for Bible credits. Andersonville was one of the schools that ACSI will take the credits but not the degrees. That's opposite to what Liberty is doing. Interesting . . .

 

[StefanM]

I know that many institutions will admit a limited number of candidates with unaccredited degrees to their programs. It is often probationary admission. They would not necessarily accept transfer credits, however.

 

[mcdirector]

That makes sense Stefan. I'd like to see some numbers. This has raised my curiousity a bit. I'm wondering how many UA students Liberty takes a year. How many Andersonville students would be accepted provisionally and then are fully accepted, etc.

I also wondered (I don't remember this being the case, but it's possible) if there is some variance in the program at Andersonville. A project, thesis, etc could make a differnce in Liberty's consideration for admittance.

 

[PilgrimPastor]

Are you asking why I am leaning towards them being a degree mill...because I don't recall in my OP stating I was leaning towards attending Andersonville. If it's the former, my view of them being "millish" has to do with what I have read about their work simplicity and load. That is what is confusing me in regards to Liberty accepting their degree. Has Liberty's standards recently fallen, or has Andersonville's recently risen?

Actually, It has been my experience that Liberty has raised their standards or at least it seems so. When I enrolled with Liberty in 2000 they were very generous to me in terms of transfer credits. They accepted all of the work I had done with Global University (DETC Accredited) by correspondence in pastoral ministry, they accepted all of the work I had with Harcourt Learning in computer science, now Penn Foster College (Also DETC Accredited), and they accepted many credits by way of military training.

I have a friend on the other hand who didn't receive nearly as much generosity when she considered Liberty about a year ago for a degree in finance. She has a Regionally Accredited Associates Degree which they were willing to accept most of but she has a Bachelor and Master's in Christian Counseling from a UA school (Pillsbury College and Seminary www.pillsburycs.org) which they would accept none of. Even much of the A.A. work was going to have to be "re-done." This surprised me mostly because Pillsbury uses NCCA and AACC (Christian Counseling Organizations) continuing ed material for much of their courses and AACC President Tim Clinton has strong ties with Liberty.

2 cents... :type:

 

[Martin]

I'm leaning towards them being closer to a mill, but after emailing them, here are the schools that they claim accept their credits

==I must have proof or their claims are just that...claims. For the most part these are people who earned undergraduate degrees from Andersonville being accepted into Liberty Seminary. That is not unusual nor does it surprise me. I know of several unaccredited schools that have undergraduate graduates accepted into Liberty and Southeastern. So no surprise there.

I have several students’ acceptance letters for verification. This school accepts our degrees, but not individual credits.

==Accepts undergraduate degrees but not credits. See the limit? I know the writer of the email cannot legally share those letters I would love to see them.

In December, 2007, a student reported being accepted in the doctorate program at Liberty with 90 credit hours at the graduate level from Andersonville Theological Seminary.

==This, I would have to have proof of and I would have to know the "whole" story. I can't comment further unless/until further information comes forward.

My question is... Liberty?!? Has either Liberty's standards declined, or has Andersonville's standards increased for them to accept the BA from Andersonville?

==Neither. It is not unheard of that accredited seminaries honor undergraduate degrees from unaccredited schools. Having said that, however, that is not a risk I would take.

Edit to add:

It would also be interesting to know if these people were accepted directly or were they accepted with conditions (probation, etc).

 

[webdog]

Martin how did you arive to your current view of Andersonville from this...?

I took two classes from Andersonville a few years ago just to test the distance learning waters (ie...to see if it was for me). I had heard alot of good things about the program and decided that it would be a good test drive for me. I knew they were not accredited, and I knew that I would only do one or two classes just to see if I liked distance education. How did I like it? Well I enrolled in Liberty's MAR (distance) program.

Andersonville has a good program and their classes are solid. Most of the teachers, at least at that time, were Andersonville graduates (which is not a good thing) however they were real good teachers and had a solid grasp on the material. The professor I talked to via email, Dr Howard, was very helpful and eager to see students learn. Every now and then I get a new catalog from Andersonville just to keep up with them (I get catalogs from alot of seminaries). I noticed that they have added classes from the Institue of Theological Studies to their programs. ITS has classes by scholars like Darrell Bock. I think Dallas Seminary (DTS) used ITS at one time (not sure if they still do). So they have a solid program. Andersonville is NOT a degree mill (accreditation or no accreditation) and is a good school. They claim to hold accreditation however their accreditation is not official (so they really have no accreditation). That is a weakness they should explain better.

Who should consider Andersonville? NOT EVERYBODY!

Andersonville is good for several types of people.

1. People who just want to attend, through distance learning, a Bible College/Seminary for personal growth. They don't wish to change careers or have an "offical" ministry position (preacher, etc). They just wish to study. For these people accreditation is not a issue.

2. Sunday school teachers who wish to improve their knowledge of Scripture.

3. Pastors of small churches.

However one must always consider the church/school (etc) one wishes to be employeed by before signing up a Andersonville (or anywhere else). Some denominations require certain degrees, some even require degrees from schools that hold accreditation. If one wishes to teach (at any level) Andersonville will not work. To teach a person must hold a degree from a school that has official accreditation. This all may seem unfair but it is the real world.

This is all just my opinion and I am no expert. But I hope this helps in some way.

In Christ,
Martin.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=66836&postcount=4

 

[Martin]

Martin how did you arive to your current view of Andersonville from this...?

==Clearly my views have changed since 01-04-2005. Since that time I graduated from Liberty, did a school search for a MA/History program, went to a university to earn my second MA, got a job in the school of education at that university, helped do reports/research for the re-accreditation process at that job, discussed the issue with more people, made friends of college professors and staff who are well informed on these issues, talked further to my father who has worked on SACS boards, and have read much more on the subject. So much has changed since January of '05.

Other things have changed as well.

In January of '05 I was a 4-point Calvinist. Now I am a 5-point Calvinist.

In January of '05 I was "no expert" on the issue. While I am still not an "expert", and as complex as accreditation is I am not sure there are any "experts", I know far more about the subject now then I did then.

In January of '05 I was not a college instructor, I am now. That also affects my views on these issues.

So digging up old posts maybe fun and everything but it does not change my current views of these things. Views that I must say are much better informed. Sometimes I read things I posted on various theological web-boards back in the late 90s, and I am amazed at how ignorant I really was. So things change, and as people grow they change. That is certainly true of me.

 

[webdog]

==Clearly my views have changed since 01-04-2005. Since that time I graduated from Liberty, did a school search for a MA/History program, went to a university to earn my second MA, got a job in the school of education at that university, helped do reports/research for the re-accreditation process at that job, discussed the issue with more people, made friends of college professors and staff who are well informed on these issues, talked further to my father who has worked on SACS boards, and have read much more on the subject. So much has changed since January of '05.

Other things have changed as well.

In January of '05 I was a 4-point Calvinist. Now I am a 5-point Calvinist.

In January of '05 I was "no expert" on the issue. While I am still not an "expert", and as complex as accreditation is I am not sure there are any "experts", I know far more about the subject now then I did then.

In January of '05 I was not a college instructor, I am now. That also affects my views on these issues.

So digging up old posts maybe fun and everything but it does not change my current views of these things. Views that I must say are much better informed. Sometimes I read things I posted on various theological web-boards back in the late 90s, and I am amazed at how ignorant I really was. So things change, and as people grow they change. That is certainly true of me.

Thanks...I wasn't trying to change your views, but was something I came up with on my own research on the BB.

Sorry about you becoming a 5 pointer, btw. 4 points are bad enough

 

[Rhetorician]

Webdog Response and Apology

Are you asking why I am leaning towards them being a degree mill...because I don't recall in my OP stating I was leaning towards attending Andersonville. If it's the former, my view of them being "millish" has to do with what I have read about their work simplicity and load. That is what is confusing me in regards to Liberty accepting their degree. Has Liberty's standards recently fallen, or has Andersonville's recently risen?

WD,

I am sorry I misunderstood your OP. Please forgive.

Let me offer a couple of observations if I may about your overall inquiry.

First, Liberty has, and always will be, Fundamentalists Independent Baptist on some level. If not, there will always be the perception that it is.

Secondly and based on #1 above, schools/degrees like Andersonville have been well accepted by IFB churches as well as other Fundamentalists groups. It would not be difficult to see that Liberty would/could accept the degrees from places like Andersonville on a "case-by-case" basis. After all the person "does have a degree."

Three, and I don't like to impugn anyone's integrity BUT: with the way things are going in the academic world; email, on line learning, co-hort learning, Blackboard Delivery Systems, etc., here is a "cash cow" if you will. There is a lot of people out there who might want an MAR online (read Regionally Accredited) degree from Liberty who cannot or will not do what it takes to move their family like I did when we came to Mid America.

It would be easy to understand, for a college like Liberty as described above, to admit someone with an "unaccredited degree" on academic probation for one or two semesters to see if they can perform. Then they can let them into say an on line MAR program so the person will have access to an RA degree program. Then with the accredited master's degree "in hand" upon graduation they can go on to whatever other educational opportunities they wish.

For this I fault no one. It does make sense since I have sat down to type it out more than when I first considered it.

My two cents worth!

"That is all!"

 

[Martin]

Sorry about you becoming a 5 pointer, btw. 4 points are bad enough

==Thanks for your words of sympathy :laugh: .

 

[paidagogos]

Accepting students or accepting credits?

Perhaps it has escaped my notice but I did not see whether Liberty accepts Andersonville credits for transfer or if they accepted their graduates. There is a huge difference that needs discussion. To accept the credits for transfer is to give credibility to the institution and its instruction. However, to accept a graduate does not solely depend on the student's alma mater. A student may be qualified to pursue graduate studies without the formal academic background. Acceptance for graduate work can be a highly individualized process with formal education being only one factor in the consideration. Perhaps someone would like to address this issue.

 

[webdog]

Andersonville claimed they accepted undergrad degrees...but then Bitsy stated here that she remembers them taking credits...so I'm utterly confused at this point

 

[DrRandyGrace]

My undergraduate degree was earned at a very liberal baptist college. I basically held my nose, regurgitated what they desired, paid my money and walked out with a degree. I chose to do both my graduate degrees from Andersonville. I was required to take the courses, complete the exams, do research and present thoroughly documented papers in every course that I took. While I heard some things with which I did not agree, on the whole, it was a very positive experience and much more profitable than my undergrad degree that contained information that for the most part I cast aside. I highly recommend Andersonville.

 

[paidagogos]

I find it odd that Liberty will accept Andersonville's degrees but not individual credits?

Distance education was once one of my hobbies. At one time, in association with serving on SACS/ACSI accreditation teams, I did a little research on some UA schools with distance programs and how their credits/degrees could be used for Bible credits. Andersonville was one of the schools that ACSI will take the credits but not the degrees. That's opposite to what Liberty is doing. Interesting . . .

Accepting transfer credits is based on the credibility of instruction from another institution whereas accepting a student with a degree is more about the qualifications of the individual who may have come by his or her competence through means other than formal education at a RA school.