Andersonville Seminary

Paidagogos,

I understand what you are saying. I am not relying at all on what I learn through distance learning to satisfy my hunger for knowledge and truth. In fact, I would say the majority of my knowledge has come through personal study preparing for Sunday School or Bible Study. Many folks have indicated that programs within the same educational institution have different requirements. A lot depends on the individual student as well. For example, for a paper in Introduction to the Bible, I was required to write a 25 page paper and I wrote a 107 page (single spaced, 10 pt font) because that is what I felt was required to adequately address the issue. There are some students that will go the extra mile to learn.

I have had telephone contact with my professors when I needed it, so there is interaction and I can get feedback on my papers or have questions answered. I would hope that the staff would be able to field questions and provide guidance regarding classes that use lectures from professors who are dead. I think everyone recognizes there can be a huge benefit from studying from deceased people as was mentioned above.

I guess what concerns me is the idea I get from reading posts that unless one can actually attends a seminary in person or a certain distance learning program, then don't bother.

What about the person that cannot attend seminary on campus because of family, job committements, or other considerations? What about the person that cannot afford to attend one of the programs that has been suggested?

Is it better to enter ministry with no education than with an education that many on this thread have indicated is substandard or not up to par?

Where do the people come up with the money to pay for these programs when they are in full time ministry and supporting families, many of whom support college students?

It is difficult to select a program that meets all of an individual's needs. Sometimes, what may be good for one person may not good for another.

 

Well I for one look forward to seeing how UZThD does in his new work at the seminary.He has experience in on campus study and DE.He has a sincere heart and I know he will be doing God's work so he will be diligent.By the way if I have this right his responsibility to the seminary is to monitor and improve the DE program there.

 

Since this thread is regarding Andersonville, the following comments will be directed toward taking a degree from that particular institution.
1. What is your goal? Learning or a degree? If it is a degree, then people in the know hold the unaccredited Andersonville degree in distain. Other unaccredited degrees (i.e. PCC, formerly BJU, etc.) are held in esteem because they have a proven record and are legitimate degree programs. If it is learning, then you are shortchanging yourself because you are actually studying and working with instructors who have no terminal degree to speak of (i.e. an Andersonville degree).
2. There are reputable DE degrees that are more economical than the Andersonville diploma. Consider the South African schools--UNISA, SATS, UNIZUL, Potchefstroom, etc. I recommend reading one of John Bear's books (Bears' Guide to Earning Degrees by Distance Learning) or going to http://www.degree.net/ for more information on DE.
3. Even if you acquire an Andersonville doctorate, I would question the integrity and ethical considerations in using the title doctor. In other words, you couldn't tell anyone if you're being scrupulously honest. An Andersonville doctorate is not a real doctorate.
4. Quantity is not to be confused with quality. Some earth-shaking publications have been quite short. Verbosity does not denote intelligence, rigor, or quality. Two hundred fifty pages of nonsense is still nonsense. I doubt that the Andersonville live and present faculty are competent to judge the quality of a doctoral dissertation. After all, who judged the quality of their dissertation from Andersonville?
5. It takes a doctor to make a doctor. Since all the resident faculty seem to have their doctorates from Andersonville, who made them doctors? Perhaps this is another Cotton Mather story.
6. The Andersonville work is probably decent Bible institute work. However, it is not honest and ethical to give graduate degrees for Bible institute level work regardless of how much there is. In other words, doctoral studies are of a qualitative difference, not just quantitative. For example, one can study freshman chemistry until the cows come home and never be as competent as a Ph.D. chemist. In a graduate/post-graduate chemistry seminar, one speaker said, "The first thing they tell you when you get to grad school is that everything you learned in freshman chemistry was a lie."
7. From the description of people doing the Andersonville degrees, it appears that their approach is learning by rote. Their methodology is encyclopedic, not skill oriented. Also, one is awarded a degree by reading and summarizing rather than interacting and thinking. One is memorization versus cognition. A good program challenges you to think and interact with the ideas. A poor program teaches to memorize without understanding.

 

Paidagogos,

Could you answer the questions I asked in my post? That would be helpful to me.

If the state of Georgia grants the authority to issue degrees by the school, why would you,

"question the integrity and ethical considerations in using the title doctor. In other words, you couldn't tell anyone if you're being scrupulously honest. An Andersonville doctorate is not a real doctorate."

If the degree is legally earned, why couldn't I be called Dr.? If you read all of my posts, you have seen that earning this degree has nothing to do with me being called Dr. If that were the case, I could have purchased a degree. I thought I was obtaining a "real" doctorate. I have no desire to teach in a college, university or seminary. The purpose of pursuing education was because I wanted practical ministry teaching that would equip me to be a better Sunday School teacher, shepherd, and counselor before the Lord puts me in the position of pastor. I have been in church lay leadership for 10 years and ordained for 6 years, but have no staff experience. I believed the best way to compensate for the lack of experience was education. No one on full time staff at my church has any formal education. In fact, in my area, there is no SBC pastor with an earned doctorate from anywhere.

I've read Bear's book (after I was already enrolled in Andersonville) and it mentions Andersonville in a small paragraph, not in a negative or positive light.

A lot of the posts on this thread have been very negative. I have kept an open mind and really tried to understand everyone' input. People have a definite opinion on this issue, some based on facts, others based on conjecture. What I haven't seen expressed is, "Ian, I appreciate the position you're in. Finish what you've started. We understand your heart and your desire to be as prepared as you can be before entering full time ministry and we're praying for you."

Perhaps I was looking for encouragement or at least positive comments in a difficult situation. Instead, people have been quick to judge and quick to tell me what I should have done. Hindsight is a great thing.

 

Ian,

I think Paid's assessment is dead right.

My question is this: Why are you doing a DMin at Andersonville? If you want a respected degree, why not work through Luther Rice or another DE institution?

Many go the Andersonville route because their master's degree is also unaccredited and not acceptable by an accredited institution. As has been noted, accreditation does not guarantee rigor and learning and non-accreditation does not necessarily mean that such has not taken place. Having said that, though, I know of no reputable proponent of Andersonville. There are simply better options.

If your master's degree does not meet the entry requirements of accredited institutions offering DMin degrees, why not stop where you are in the Andersonville program and work through a DE institution which requires quality work? You may then find that a DMin is unnecessary, but you would then be able to enter a quality and reputable DMin program if you desire.

Please don't take this personally. Some of us speak with frankness because we believe that the ministry requires the best we as finite and fallible humans can offer, by God's grace. Don't sell yourself short---you can do much better than Andersonville.

Blessings,
Bill

 

Ian,

The state of Georgia's allowing an institution to grant degrees is almost perfunctory. It just shows that Andersonville is not a degree mill with nothing more than a P.O. box. It has nothing to do with accreditation or quality.

Bill

 

I’ll do my best

Please see Broadus’ comment on this thread. I fully agree.

It is pretentious. You are claiming a distinction that you have not actually achieved although it is not illegal. It may not be illegal but it is not ethical. (The gov’t keeps hands off religious degrees, which is the reason substandard schools can get away with it. However, try the same with a medical school diploma and you’ll probably end up with 3 hots and a cot at gov’t expense.) I have a higher standard than mere legality. It is legal to play the lottery in SC but I don’t. The Andersonville doctorate is simply nowhere near the academic standard for a real doctorate.

So, why are you sending money to Andersonville?

I wouldn’t because it is dishonest.

Yeah, this makes me think less of Andersonville. It is taking advantage of well-meaning and good people.

Write off Andersonville as a bad experience and find a good quality program, not necessarily a degree program, which will equip you. Also, how much useful knowledge are you learning at Andersonville? I know you are working hard from the length of your papers. However, I would be interested to know what texts you are using.

So what? A good shepherd does not necessarily need a doctorate. Many fine pastors have Bible college or Bible institute diploma with lots of practical experience and years of diligently digging in the Word. But, if you are going to get a doctorate, get a real one. That’s my best advice.

John is not a professing Christian but he is somewhat of an agnostic. He makes no value judgments on religious schools.

Ian, my heart does go out to you but I cannot honestly tell you to finish your degree at Andersonville in good faith. Otherwise, I would be a false friend to you. I can’t tell you what you want to hear. However, it is entirely your decision and I cannot dictate to you. I will not be overly critical if you do decide to continue. I will pray for you to have the guidance and wisdom of the Holy Spirit in this matter.

I know this all too well. How far along are you in this program. How much money do you have invested (don’t need to tell me)? Can you get any refunds? Have you considered UZThD’s school? I think it is pretty economical.
Best wishes in whatever you do.

 

Thanks for your response Paidagogos and Broadus. I am over halfway through the program and my tuition is paid in full. I received a discount for paying in full.

I can't justify spending any more money on my education. My 15 year old son is a junior in high school at a private online academy ($$$$) preparing to go to college and my 11 year old daughter goes to a private Christian school ($$$$). I retire from the Navy next summer after 23 years of service. I want to remain debt free.

I think I mentioned this earlier in the thread. I enrolled at Andersonville because it was mentioned as a school gaining respect in the SBC and was seeking accredidation. The man that said that is a professor/pastor in Arkansas that teaches at a SBC seminary extention.

I spoke with the Director of Church Development for the Jacksonville (FL) Baptist Association and he encouraged me to finish the program.

When I started distance learning in 1999, there were few options that I found. The school I started with closed and I had to find a school that would accept my work with no official transcripts. Fortunately, I still had contact with my advisor and I had grade reports for my work from the school. Libery had a distance learning program but it was cost prohibitive. The tuition was actually a little bit more than on campus residency.

How do you folks pay for your education???? I have looked at some programs that are over $10,000.

Again, from the information I was able to gleen about Andersonville, it seemed the best option for my situation both financially and time wise. As I said earlier, no one on full time staff at my church has any formal education. Of the two other ministers at my church, one has a bible college degree and calls seminary "cemetery" and the other told me not to waste my time going to seminary. Needless to say, our staff does not place a value on education. I, on the other hand, do value education.

I have learned a good deal from Andersonville, but I recognize no matter where I go, it is up to me to learn. No matter the requirements, I always strive to do the best I can to exceed the minimum. You mentioned textbooks. For Galatians, the text is, Grace in Galatia: A Commentary on Paul's Letter to the Galatians by Ben Witherington, III.

My pastor is a godly man who has great love and compassion for people. He is a very loving shepherd who hurts when his sheep hurt. I have learned compassion and love from him. That being said, I have learned little from him as far as exegesis goes. One example. We had a discussion on Bible study. I told him how I examine the Scriptures, reading for context and with a purpose. I have been trained in inductive Bible study and have learned to ask, "Who, what, where, why, when, and how." I search Biblical cross references and study the historical context of the book. If I think I need any information, I'll look at a commentary. Oftentimes, the commentary reenforces what I have learned. When I told my pastor this, he said, "Why do all that work when you can just read a commentary?" I was dumbfounded. He typically reads three of four commentaries on a passage and that is how he prepares. I use the inductive study method in my studies at Andersonville. I do all I can to get the most out of my studies. While the school may have a minimum requirement, I most certainly exceed that.

So that is where I am coming from. 23 years of service to my country have limited my opportunities for staff experience. I have tons of leadership, training, counseling, speaking, and mentoring experience in the Navy, but no official staff church experience. Only lay leadership.

Comments? Other suggestions?

Thanks.

 

Brother Ian,

I hear this alot in seminary circles, but what does deductive verses inductive really mean?

I do know how the words are defined, but you are using the terms to elicit a connotation outside of what I would deem the terms' range of denotation ...

[ September 28, 2005, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: El_Guero ]

 

Ian,

It sounds like you are between a rock and a hard space ...

Most churches (SBC? or Independent Fundamental?) will 'desire', but not require, a degree. And I expect that some will not want to know about where you got your degree.

Most (if not all churches) will expect that you are: Called, married, and experienced (in ministry).

I think that if you were to look (by seeking a church pastorate or staff position), you would find that what you are defining as credentials for ministry are not quite the same as what the churches themselves are looking for.

 

Do I look down upon a degree from Andersonville?

I realize that my answer is not the answer to your question that you really would want to hear.

Ten years as a Non-commissioned Officer would encourage me to say things hard, fast, and to the point.

Yes, I do. But, I do not look down upon a person that is trying to improve one's self.

 

Chief ...

If I were to counsel you as a soldier, I would get the bottom line up front ... I find it difficult to understand 'why' you are able to pursue a degree that normally requres pre-requisites without having the pre-requisites ...


Scenario: You are on an unfriendly beach and your location will be becoming 'hot' within the next 6 hours. You are responsible to choose the extraction method for you and your personnel.

Method A: Because of cost cutting the CinC PACOM is willing to designate 19 Seaman Apprentices (SA) led by one Seaman (SN) as 'seal team desparation' and send them to get you. The CinC wants you to feel comfortable about the cost cutting procedures and tells you that they did finish the correct correspondence courses.

Method B: The Army can send a Ranger Platoon to extract you.


Something tells me that you would choose Army over Navy in the scenario ...

 

Ian,

I, too, think you're between that proverbial rock and hard place and have been the recipient of bad advice. Still, my advice is still to stop the Andersonville program and study through another venue. You've invested a goodly sum of money, and I feel for you. It's not your fault, and Andersonville will probably not refund any money. I would just cut my losses, back up to whatever degree program I needed to in order to have credible work, and study. Your Andersonville work will not have been wasted---things you've learned will be useful as you continue studying.

You asked how we paid for our education. Believe me, I'm not advising you to do anything I wouldn't do. I had an M.Div. (1985) and a D.Min. (1992) from a nationally accredited seminary. The D.Min. was a quality degree, but the M.Div. included work which I did at Hyles-Anderson. That institution would probably not now accept that work, but they did in the early 1980's. I now consider that M.Div. an inferior degree, but I'm convinced that that seminary has strengthened its requirements now some 20 years later.

However, I believed that God would have me pursue a Ph.D. in order to have the kind of ministry I envisioned. I started over. I began taking M.Div. extension courses from Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary and New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary. After completing 33 hours by extension (driving 2 hours each way once a week to one of the extension sites), my wife, three teenage daughters, and I moved to Kentucky (leaving an 8-year pastorate) so that I could finish my second M.Div. at Southern. God blessed our efforts, and I finished the M.Div. in 1998 and the Ph.D. in 2003, debt free.

I write this simply to say that if you believe that God would have you pursue formal training, be willing to pay the price and do it. We homeschooled our daughters and I didn't get much sleep (pastoring bivocationally and working part time) and we did without things that we would have liked, but it was the price my family graciously paid. You can, too. You appear to have a great desire to learn, which, of course, does not require formal training. Formal training, however, can in the end save a lot of time by saving you from inferior works and leading you to quality learning experiences.

You wrote of using Witherington's book for your Ph.D. course in Galatians. Is that the only text you used? I could see its being used perhaps for a masters-level course but doubtlessly not a Ph.D. seminar.

Let's just say, for instance, that you believe God would have you pursue quality formal training. Yes, it may cost more than Andersonville, but it will be well worth it. If money is an issue, take a DE course at a time as you can afford it. When your finances allow, take more. Don't give up, and don't worry about how old you'll be when you finish. You'll still be that old if you don't do it!

I appreciate your desire to learn and grow, as well as your openness and honesty. However, I deplore the advice you've received, especially from folks who should know better. Maybe that says a lot about too many leaders in the SBC.

Thank you for your sevice to our country.

Blessings,
Bill

 

Thanks Bill. I appreciate it. If only I knew you in 1999. . . .

 

El Guero,

Here is quick synopsis of inductive Bible study.

Instead of studying resources about the Bible, inductive study focuses first upon the Bible. You need to be willing to lay aside your preconceived notions, pet interpretations, ready references, study notes, sermon tapes, etc., and approach the Scriptures as if for the first time. Your primary resource is God's Word, then other secondary resources. The tendency for many Bible students at the beginning of a study is to collect secondary resources that will do the "observing" and "interpreting" for the reader. It's quick but is it correct? How can you know if you don't make your own independent observations and arrive at your own interpretation based on those observations? Why even go to the Scriptures if you almost immediately forget what you've just read? Research shows that we learn more and retain more the more actively we are involved in the learning process. I know this to be certain in my own studies, both Christian and professional endeavors.

Here's an example of what I am talking about.
If you wanted to learn about frogs, you could go to the library and check out a book entitled "The Life of Frogs" or you would go to your favorite search engine and type in "frog's life." But how would you know that the so-called frog expert had really given you an accurate interpretation of a frog's life? You wouldn't if you relied solely upon that one source. On the other hand, you could go to a nearby pond, sit by the water's edge and begin to observe and write down what you observed about the local frogs - how they gathered food, what they liked to eat and not eat, where they liked to sit, how they mated, where, when and how they laid their eggs, what transpired when the eggs hatched, and how long it took tadpoles to grow into adult frogs. Then you could take one of the frogs back home, dissect him and observe how he was constructed in great detail, even observing the interrelationships of the innermost parts under a dissecting microscope.

Practically speaking, reading a reference by a "frog expert" is a lot easier. Besides, you could glean the frog facts in a fraction of the time it would take you to perform your own observations of the frog's life cycle. What's the point? In the first method, you might remember what you read for a few days, but with the second method you'd likely be able to recall your observations months, even years later. Which method provides the potential for the joy of self discovery? Which method "costs" the most (in time and effort)? I'm sure you can see the clear distinctions between these two methods.

In terms of Bible study, you can study someone's else's study or you can study the Scripture for yourself. The inductive method provides you with the skills and familiarity with the tools which make it possible for even beginning students (and even children) to confidently study the Scriptures on their own. This method of study can be used regardless of the area you study.

In a nutshell, that what inductive study is all about. Finding out the truth for yourself. In everyday life, you can certainly see the broad spectrum of beliefs that are posted on this website that come from the same Scripture passage. Why do you think that is? Because people want instant knowledge without the work.

That ties in with my studies at Andersonville. I did what I thought was best with the information I had at the time. If I just wanted a degree, I could have bought one online, but I wanted the education. I know having a degree does not make one knowledgeable, but unfortunately, many churches will not even look at you if your background doesn't include a graduate degree.

As I approach retirement, I have been keeping an eye on ministry placement websites. I have found some pretty distubing things. For example, I looked at a church's posting that is looking for a pastor. The qualifications included: five years experience as a senior pastor and a master's degree from an accredited SBC seminary. The church size was 50 people. I'm not saying the Lord won't provide for that church, but I wonder what some churches are thinking. It seems more and more, churches are seeking highly qualified people but are not willing to pay them accordingly. Mind you, I am definitely not entering the ministry to get rich, but you've got to feed the family.

I'm trusting the Lord to provide the right opportunity for me and my family.

 

Broadus,

Let's say you were looking for an Associate Pastor or Minister of Education. Would you, as a pastor, look negatively on the degree from Andersonville? In other words, if you saw it on a resume, would you discard that candidate?

 

I understand your point, but it's apples and oranges. There are plenty of pastors with no formal training.