I think it is hard to hear criticism when you have spent thousands of dollars and many hours of time pursuing a degree at a school like Andersonville. Personally, I'm glad people have been candid. Maybe others reading these comments will perhaps not make the same mistakes. Broadus makes very good points once again that one's options are very limited when you train at inferior schools. Many of us probably don't have the money to return to more reputable schools when you reach a point in your life that you become embarassed about choosing unwisely.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Andersonville Seminary
- Thread starter Martin
- Start date
Brice: You say these comments are attacking the man, and/or are making unfair assumptions about his motives for getting a doc at ATS.
FIRST
Ian Wrote :"If the state of Georgia grants the authority to issue degrees by the school ."
I answered: "State granted authority has little do with the quality of the ATS ThD program."
---
How am I wrong about Ian's assumption that state approval equals a quality program? How is this response attacking Ian?
SECOND
Ian wrote: "If the degree is legally earned, why couldn't I be called Dr.?"
I answered:"It is also legal to sell and buy ministerial titles and degrees. Legality is not equivalent to honesty or quality."
Calling oneself a "Dr" after finishing an Andersonville doc is the slippery slope at the bottom of which is buying credentials.
How is this just assuming that Ian intends to be called "Dr" [if he is asking why he could not legally be called "Dr" ], or how is it an attack on Ian to point out that legality does not assure quality?
THIRD
Ian wrote: "If you read all of my posts, you have seen that earning this degree has nothing to do with me being called Dr."
I answered: "Really! Then why are you getting a doc degree at all? Naw, you want to be called "doc"!! If you do not want the title, then prove that now by just buying the ITS tapes and your own text books.
---
I stand by that question! If Ian is just content to learn, and has no desire to complete a doc degree, then why not drop the program and buy the tapes and the textbooks and study on his own instead of paying $4000 for next to nothing?
To pointedly ask questions is not attacking but is helpful in clearly seeing why something is being done.
He does NOT need to be in an Andersonville Doc to just be learning, does he?
FOURTH
Ian wrote: "I wanted practical ministry teaching that would equip me to be a better Sunday School teacher, shepherd, and counselor before the Lord puts me in the position of pastor. "
I answered: "Why does any of these ministries require a doc? But,if they actually do require a doc , why not get a real one-huh?"
---
That is a fair question and I do not think that my asking it is attacking Ian.
But someone tell me why public school teachers need to have credible degrees , but ministers for God do not!
I think if Ian asks for opinions, then he needs to say why he thinks he needs an Andersonville doc. Why not instead get a Luther Rice MDiv? Why not from there get a credible ThM in Ministry?
In other words, if formal training is thought to be needed, why not get that training in solid schools?
What's the diff between getting an MDiv/ ThM combo a DMin? Oh yes, only in the latter can one legally be called "Dr." But that's not really important, is it? Soi, the question remains, why enroll in an Andersonville doc IF getting a doc is not part of the reasons for enrollment???
FIFTH
Ian wrote: "I've read Bear's book (after I was already enrolled in Andersonville) and it mentions Andersonville in a small paragraph, not in a negative or positive light."
I answered : "If you [REALLY] seek insight from academe re the ATS ThD, why don't you email the academic Deans of six accredited schools and have them evalute that very ATS ThD program? That will really give you insight!!"
------
Ian was looking for assurances in academe. The assurance he found was that Bear said no bad, or good, thing about Andersonville in a tiny paragraph . I suggested that Ian look to Christian Deans of Christian seminaries and see what feedback they'd provide.
Now you tell me just how this is attacking Ian.
------
Then I also said re those responses from deans of good schools , "! Those will be my facts, but, then, you are impervious to facts...."
----
Yes, that is an attack, but not on Ian's person ; rather it is on how he researches for encouragement in Bear's brief comment, who btw is a Buddhist not a Christian , instead of getting the truth re Andersonville from good Christian academics who are committed to rigor in higher CEd. So fault me there for encouraging Ian to research the school he is committed to. Score one for you.
----
I also said, "BUT the REAL reason you CANNOT enter a credible doc is that you not have a credible masters in the area. Isn't that right???"
---
That IS the real reason, isn't it? Ian very probably could do a real DMin by DE, but does he instead choose ndersonville for its quality or for its lack of quality in not having high the entry bar?
He very likely could do, I KNOW, a real MTh in praxis for under $2500. [give up ATS, Ian, and I'll show you how]
Why does he opt for Andersonville then? Is it because only Andersonville can adequately train him train him? Really?
---
I also answered: "Oh well, fill in that little hole with putty ..no one will notice.
In fact, just fill all of the holes at Anfersonville with putty too: SEE: no credible teachers; just putty it in ! SEE: no coursework rigor ; just putty it in . SEE: no entry teqs ; putty it in!!!"
---
But how is this an attack on Ian? It is rather an attack on a school handing out docs in the name of Christ our LORD with
foolish entry requirements,
a farcical faculty,
and a false rigor.
[ October 02, 2005, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: UZThD ]
FIRST
Ian Wrote :"If the state of Georgia grants the authority to issue degrees by the school ."
I answered: "State granted authority has little do with the quality of the ATS ThD program."
---
How am I wrong about Ian's assumption that state approval equals a quality program? How is this response attacking Ian?
SECOND
Ian wrote: "If the degree is legally earned, why couldn't I be called Dr.?"
I answered:"It is also legal to sell and buy ministerial titles and degrees. Legality is not equivalent to honesty or quality."
Calling oneself a "Dr" after finishing an Andersonville doc is the slippery slope at the bottom of which is buying credentials.
How is this just assuming that Ian intends to be called "Dr" [if he is asking why he could not legally be called "Dr" ], or how is it an attack on Ian to point out that legality does not assure quality?
THIRD
Ian wrote: "If you read all of my posts, you have seen that earning this degree has nothing to do with me being called Dr."
I answered: "Really! Then why are you getting a doc degree at all? Naw, you want to be called "doc"!! If you do not want the title, then prove that now by just buying the ITS tapes and your own text books.
---
I stand by that question! If Ian is just content to learn, and has no desire to complete a doc degree, then why not drop the program and buy the tapes and the textbooks and study on his own instead of paying $4000 for next to nothing?
To pointedly ask questions is not attacking but is helpful in clearly seeing why something is being done.
He does NOT need to be in an Andersonville Doc to just be learning, does he?
FOURTH
Ian wrote: "I wanted practical ministry teaching that would equip me to be a better Sunday School teacher, shepherd, and counselor before the Lord puts me in the position of pastor. "
I answered: "Why does any of these ministries require a doc? But,if they actually do require a doc , why not get a real one-huh?"
---
That is a fair question and I do not think that my asking it is attacking Ian.
But someone tell me why public school teachers need to have credible degrees , but ministers for God do not!
I think if Ian asks for opinions, then he needs to say why he thinks he needs an Andersonville doc. Why not instead get a Luther Rice MDiv? Why not from there get a credible ThM in Ministry?
In other words, if formal training is thought to be needed, why not get that training in solid schools?
What's the diff between getting an MDiv/ ThM combo a DMin? Oh yes, only in the latter can one legally be called "Dr." But that's not really important, is it? Soi, the question remains, why enroll in an Andersonville doc IF getting a doc is not part of the reasons for enrollment???
FIFTH
Ian wrote: "I've read Bear's book (after I was already enrolled in Andersonville) and it mentions Andersonville in a small paragraph, not in a negative or positive light."
I answered : "If you [REALLY] seek insight from academe re the ATS ThD, why don't you email the academic Deans of six accredited schools and have them evalute that very ATS ThD program? That will really give you insight!!"
------
Ian was looking for assurances in academe. The assurance he found was that Bear said no bad, or good, thing about Andersonville in a tiny paragraph . I suggested that Ian look to Christian Deans of Christian seminaries and see what feedback they'd provide.
Now you tell me just how this is attacking Ian.
------
Then I also said re those responses from deans of good schools , "! Those will be my facts, but, then, you are impervious to facts...."
----
Yes, that is an attack, but not on Ian's person ; rather it is on how he researches for encouragement in Bear's brief comment, who btw is a Buddhist not a Christian , instead of getting the truth re Andersonville from good Christian academics who are committed to rigor in higher CEd. So fault me there for encouraging Ian to research the school he is committed to. Score one for you.
----
I also said, "BUT the REAL reason you CANNOT enter a credible doc is that you not have a credible masters in the area. Isn't that right???"
---
That IS the real reason, isn't it? Ian very probably could do a real DMin by DE, but does he instead choose ndersonville for its quality or for its lack of quality in not having high the entry bar?
He very likely could do, I KNOW, a real MTh in praxis for under $2500. [give up ATS, Ian, and I'll show you how]
Why does he opt for Andersonville then? Is it because only Andersonville can adequately train him train him? Really?
---
I also answered: "Oh well, fill in that little hole with putty ..no one will notice.
In fact, just fill all of the holes at Anfersonville with putty too: SEE: no credible teachers; just putty it in ! SEE: no coursework rigor ; just putty it in . SEE: no entry teqs ; putty it in!!!"
---
But how is this an attack on Ian? It is rather an attack on a school handing out docs in the name of Christ our LORD with
foolish entry requirements,
a farcical faculty,
and a false rigor.
[ October 02, 2005, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: UZThD ]
First - I agree
Second - I would wait to see a reply to see if that was a genuine question or a future plan.
Third - Please read your post again. It contains a comment that online will (in almost all instances) be perceived as taking a cheap shot. "nah, you just want to be called Doc". This was uncalled for and a step over just asking a serious question.
Fourth - Agree for the most part, but again we must give him the benefit of the doubt with the information we have. It is very possible he did not know of all the options out there. Not everyone has the same information we do and his heart is obviously to serve God in a capacity beyond his current or former job. He saw this degree as giving him that opportunity. Whether it does or not will have to be answered by him.
Fifth - You say:
"Then I also said re those responses from deans of good schools , "! Those will be my facts, but, then, you are impervious to facts...."
----
Yes, that is an attack, but not on Ian's person ; rather it is on how he researches for encouragement in Bear's brief comment, who btw is a Buddhist not a Christian , instead of getting the truth re Andersonville from good Christian academics who are committed to rigor in higher CEd. So fault me there for encouraging Ian to research the school he is committed to. Score one for you.
----
I also said, "BUT the REAL reason you CANNOT enter a credible doc is that you not have a credible masters in the area. Isn't that right???"
---
That IS the real reason, isn't it? Ian very probably could do a real DMin by DE, but does he instead choose ndersonville for its quality or for its lack of quality in not having high the entry bar?
He very likely could do, I KNOW, a real MTh in praxis for under $2500. [give up ATS, Ian, and I'll show you how]
Why does he opt for Andersonville then? Is it because only Andersonville can adequately train him train him? Really?
---
I also answered: "Oh well, fill in that little hole with putty ..no one will notice.
In fact, just fill all of the holes at Anfersonville with putty too: SEE: no credible teachers; just putty it in ! SEE: no coursework rigor ; just putty it in . SEE: no entry teqs ; putty it in!!!"
Please read this again and see how it might come across. You heart may be in the right place, but it comes off as an attack on his motivations. If I am interpreting this wrong please feel free to correct me. I believe you truly are trying to get him in what you perceive as the right track, but your words might very well deter him. Again I have no problem with you listing issue after issue that you have with the school, but some of those comments seem unnecessary.
Second - I would wait to see a reply to see if that was a genuine question or a future plan.
Third - Please read your post again. It contains a comment that online will (in almost all instances) be perceived as taking a cheap shot. "nah, you just want to be called Doc". This was uncalled for and a step over just asking a serious question.
Fourth - Agree for the most part, but again we must give him the benefit of the doubt with the information we have. It is very possible he did not know of all the options out there. Not everyone has the same information we do and his heart is obviously to serve God in a capacity beyond his current or former job. He saw this degree as giving him that opportunity. Whether it does or not will have to be answered by him.
Fifth - You say:
"Then I also said re those responses from deans of good schools , "! Those will be my facts, but, then, you are impervious to facts...."
----
Yes, that is an attack, but not on Ian's person ; rather it is on how he researches for encouragement in Bear's brief comment, who btw is a Buddhist not a Christian , instead of getting the truth re Andersonville from good Christian academics who are committed to rigor in higher CEd. So fault me there for encouraging Ian to research the school he is committed to. Score one for you.
----
I also said, "BUT the REAL reason you CANNOT enter a credible doc is that you not have a credible masters in the area. Isn't that right???"
---
That IS the real reason, isn't it? Ian very probably could do a real DMin by DE, but does he instead choose ndersonville for its quality or for its lack of quality in not having high the entry bar?
He very likely could do, I KNOW, a real MTh in praxis for under $2500. [give up ATS, Ian, and I'll show you how]
Why does he opt for Andersonville then? Is it because only Andersonville can adequately train him train him? Really?
---
I also answered: "Oh well, fill in that little hole with putty ..no one will notice.
In fact, just fill all of the holes at Anfersonville with putty too: SEE: no credible teachers; just putty it in ! SEE: no coursework rigor ; just putty it in . SEE: no entry teqs ; putty it in!!!"
Please read this again and see how it might come across. You heart may be in the right place, but it comes off as an attack on his motivations. If I am interpreting this wrong please feel free to correct me. I believe you truly are trying to get him in what you perceive as the right track, but your words might very well deter him. Again I have no problem with you listing issue after issue that you have with the school, but some of those comments seem unnecessary.
You're right, because LRS does not yet have regional accreditation. However, many seminaries do. I met a DMin student at SBTS who received his MDiv from LRS. If and when LRS attains RA, they have TRACS, more seminaries will open.
BTW, are you talking about accepting the LRS bachelor's to get into the MDiv or the MDiv to get into a doctorate program. Where LRS will struggle is getting its MDiv students into PhD or ThD programs. That will be harder.
That said, what credible seminary anywhere accepts an Andersonville degree?
Bill
Exactly what I said and exactly what you said.
The tapes used through ATS do not get the class accredited by ATS, but the same tapes used through DTS will get the class accredited by ATS.
? ATS is either Andersonville Theological Seminary or Association of Theological Schools ... obsfucation is obsfucation.
When you use the institute of theological studies tapes through an ATS (Association of Theological Schools) accredited seminary they are accredited classes, but when used at andersonville they are not.
Same class, different school ...
The tapes used through ATS do not get the class accredited by ATS, but the same tapes used through DTS will get the class accredited by ATS.
? ATS is either Andersonville Theological Seminary or Association of Theological Schools ... obsfucation is obsfucation.When you use the institute of theological studies tapes through an ATS (Association of Theological Schools) accredited seminary they are accredited classes, but when used at andersonville they are not.
Same class, different school ...
Luther Rice Seminary is accredited by the Transnational Association of Christian Colleges and Schools (TRACS, P.O. Box 328, Forest, VA 24551, Telephone: 434-525-9539), an institutional accrediting body, to award bachelors, masters, and doctoral degrees.
The Transnational Association of Christian Colleges and Schools (TRACS) is listed by the United States Department of Education (USDE) as a recognized accrediting organization. TRACS is also a Council for Higher Education Accreditation (CHEA) recognized accrediting organization. TRACS is one of only six national accrediting bodies that are recognized by both CHEA and the USDE.
web page
The Transnational Association of Christian Colleges and Schools (TRACS) is listed by the United States Department of Education (USDE) as a recognized accrediting organization. TRACS is also a Council for Higher Education Accreditation (CHEA) recognized accrediting organization. TRACS is one of only six national accrediting bodies that are recognized by both CHEA and the USDE.
web page
G,
Does DTS have students do their coursework by using ITS tapes? I suspect that the tapes may be used in certain cases for an independent study when the regular schedule does not accommodate a student nearing graduation, or some such scenario. I doubt seriously that very many courses are taken using ITS tapes, along with a ton of outside reading and some heavy writing. And the prof in charge would not have a non-credible terminal degree. Perhaps someone more familiar with ITS tapes and Dallas (or another seminary using them) can answer that.
It's not the use of ITS tapes per se. It's the use of ITS tapes in a doctoral program, and it's the pointing to ITS tapes as giving Andersonville credibility.
I never heard of their being used at SBTS.
Bill
Does DTS have students do their coursework by using ITS tapes? I suspect that the tapes may be used in certain cases for an independent study when the regular schedule does not accommodate a student nearing graduation, or some such scenario. I doubt seriously that very many courses are taken using ITS tapes, along with a ton of outside reading and some heavy writing. And the prof in charge would not have a non-credible terminal degree. Perhaps someone more familiar with ITS tapes and Dallas (or another seminary using them) can answer that.
It's not the use of ITS tapes per se. It's the use of ITS tapes in a doctoral program, and it's the pointing to ITS tapes as giving Andersonville credibility.
I never heard of their being used at SBTS.
Bill
Which grad schools say they will not accept LRS, and what is the point?
Some will, and some won't.
Gordon-Conwell will not accept into its DMin program students from non-Association of Theological Schools accredited seminaries, which would include Liberty, MABTS, and Masters. That doesn't make Liberty, MABTS, and Masters inferior. It may mean that GC is snobby---I don't know.
But no credible seminary accepts Andersonville because of its requirement and faculty.
Please don't obfuscate
It's hard enough to carry on a logical discussion.
Bill
Some will, and some won't.
Gordon-Conwell will not accept into its DMin program students from non-Association of Theological Schools accredited seminaries, which would include Liberty, MABTS, and Masters. That doesn't make Liberty, MABTS, and Masters inferior. It may mean that GC is snobby---I don't know.
But no credible seminary accepts Andersonville because of its requirement and faculty.
Please don't obfuscate
Bill
Their internet courses are just as good as those of any other seminary, and there is no reason why they should practice snobbery against LRS.
Maybe I read too much into that, but I sympathize for Ian and many others that do not call individual admissions offices to see if they will accept ACCREDITED degrees. I WAS STUNNED to find the depth and degree of snobbery as I checked upon the ACCEPTANCE of accredited degrees.
Thank you for writing plainly. Yes, there is academic snobbery. We saw that with GC's requirement of Association of Theological Schools accreditation to get into its DMin program. Part of the problem which LRS has had is overcoming their beginnings. Early on, probably 25 years ago plus, their requirements were lower across the board and big shot preachers were awarded DMin's and ThD's for what was basically a booklength set of transcribed sermons. That became part of the psyche in other seminaries as to who LRS is.
Fortunately, that has not been the case for the past 20 years. Since that time they beefed up their program, received TRACS accreditation, and TRACS has added CHEA certification on top of USDE.
I sympathize with Ian and others also because they have been duped by the Andersonvilles which are all too prevalent. I have no sympathy with the Andersonvilles. I wish they would all be run out of business because they are little more than frauds.
Speaking of seminaries accepting accredited degrees for grad work, the student must make sure he is taking courses which would be needed to get into the area he desires. If he wants to do a ThM or PhD in NT, he'd better have more that six hours of Greek and three hours of Hebrew!
Bill
Fortunately, that has not been the case for the past 20 years. Since that time they beefed up their program, received TRACS accreditation, and TRACS has added CHEA certification on top of USDE.
I sympathize with Ian and others also because they have been duped by the Andersonvilles which are all too prevalent. I have no sympathy with the Andersonvilles. I wish they would all be run out of business because they are little more than frauds.
Speaking of seminaries accepting accredited degrees for grad work, the student must make sure he is taking courses which would be needed to get into the area he desires. If he wants to do a ThM or PhD in NT, he'd better have more that six hours of Greek and three hours of Hebrew!
Bill