Andrea Yates - Justice Served?

[LeBuick]

Linda could have become bitter towards Alan's family because of what he did to her husband, instead she has shown compassion and forgivness to his family, and has allowed the Lord to use her to bring healing and knowledge to thousands of families here in Florida. She has even been a personal blessing to my family as the Lord has allowed her to persoanlly counsel my wife, who suffers from bi-polar disorder.

Another unfortunate incident and I'm sorry to hear this. This is slightly different. The question would have been How would Linda have felt toward Alan had he lived. Alans family are victims in a sence themselves and have also suffered a loss. I think it would be tough to be hateful toward a family in this situation.

This brings me to ask, who is responsible for the mentally ill taking their meds? In JGrubbs and the original story, both patients stopped taking their meds which may or maynot have contributed to others being put at risk. I assume the professionals treating both patients felt they were safe to co-exist with society under the caveat they took their meds.

 

[LeBuick]

I don't think an "insanity defense" should be allowed for everyone, but I do believe that it is a valid defense in some cases, and I do believe that we need to use this case as a wake up call to Christians to start seeing how God can use them in regards to the issue of mental illness.

I agree with you here except I still believe it should be guilty by reason of insanity. She is guilty and we know that.

The question I have is the consequence of being found insame at the time. I'm not talking about if a man finds his wife in bed with another man (or woman) and momentarily looses his mind. I mean more like this case, where we know she has problems.

She has a track record of unstable behavior and made attempts of this nature to herself and children before. After we treat (help) her for 5 or so years until until her Dr. Says she is better, do we release her to society to see if he is right or not or do we have her do the time for her crime?

I have to believe any serial killer is insane, has problems, has a great big looose screw but I don't believe we give them a fist full of meds and turn them loose in society. How do we balance help with justice?

 

[JGrubbs]

This brings me to ask, who is responsible for the mentally ill taking their meds? In JGrubbs and the original story, both patients stopped taking their meds which may or maynot have contributed to others being put at risk. I assume the professionals treating both patients felt they were safe to co-exist with society under the caveat they took their meds.

It IS the primary responsability of the one who is medicated to take their meds, but when they refuse to take their meds or refuse treatment, it is the resopnsibility of their loved ones to make sure they get the proper treatment they need, even if it is against their will. In some cases even the doctors can be wrong about what treatment is best, that's why it is vital that we do all we can to educate ourselves about these issues. For many years the doctors simply were treating my wife's depression, they "tested" six different drugs on her, as we educated ourselves on her condition we were able to eventually tell the doctors enough and come up with a treatment plan that is working better than anything the doctors ever tried. We are using a combination of diet, excersise and daily supplements. These supplements have replaced her meds, and are something that my wife has to take daily. It is her primary responsibility to take these supplements everyday, and it is my responsibility to make sure she is taking them everyday, by working together she has been stable for over three years now.

After we treat (help) her for 5 or so years until until her Dr. Says she is better, do we release her to society to see if he is right or not or do we have her do the time for her crime?

I have to believe any serial killer is insane, has problems, has a great big looose screw but I don't believe we give them a fist full of meds and turn them loose in society. How do we balance help with justice?

Someone with a mental illness will not "get better" after a set time of treatment, most will have this mental illness the rest of their lives and so they will need to maintain their daily treatment for the rest of their lives. If they stop the treatment, then they will start to become unstable.

In some cases, serial killers, as you have mentioned, I believe the proper justice is the death penalty. If someone has a mental illness and it is known before they are "insane" then proper treatment should be able to help them become stable. That being said, I do believe there are some people who should not be loose in society, there are some with mental illnesses that are at a point where the only treatment that will work for them is to live in an institution, under 24 hour watch.

Any husband who knows his wife has a mental illness, and that she is not being properly treated, yet leaves his children alone in her care, should be guilty of child endangerment.

 

[Rachel]

She murdered her 5 children, she should have been exscuted.

I agree. And executed immediately.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Andrea Yates, whose conviction of murdering her 5 children by drowing was overturned, was found not guilty by reason of insanity yesterday. One psychiatrist who examined her, however, is not convinced she was insane at the time.



What do you all think?

I think she was absolutely insane and mentally ill, as are all murderers. And I think she should have been executed anyway. More liberal "justice" to excuse the murder of little children.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Bro. James Reed]

Unless, of course, you kill the wrong one. Then you have two murderers.

Which in this case is obviously not going to happen. She did it, end of story.

Also, please notice that I said execution of murderers is 100% effective. Number 1, if we execute the "wrong one", that would mean we executed the wrong murderer, which means we still executed a murderer. Number 2, if the wrong person was executed, which is what I suspect you meant, then we haven't executed the murderer, so my stats would not apply. My statement, however, is still true. If you execute a murderer, there is a 100% chance that you will stop them from committing any future murders.:thumbsup:

 

[Bro. James Reed]

The world has more compassion than you so-called Christians..Your religion is a farce, and if you think the scriptures teach that bitter nonsense, try reading how a good Samaritain..not a Christian...dealt with a fallen man along the way.

On the death penalty, I think about the 13 Black men on death row for years in Illinois until a law student worked dilligently to prove their innocence. You all love to kill, but insist on quoting "thou shalt not kill..." What hypocrites! You denounce the late Charles Darwin because of a philosophical viewpoint and yet he had more compassion for a monkey that the lot of you do for another human being.

I hear so many talk about their illnesses, migraine headaches and other such ailments and you want pity! Don't search Christendom for it. Try the world of unbelievers. They do show compassion and care.

And the one chap needs to take care of his obesity before he offers to kill a poor woman suffering a mental deficiency. What a man! What a gut!

Cheers,

Jim, Old, feeble and fed up...You want to try sitting on me too?

For someone who looks so old, you sure can act like a child.

You say you're full of compassion, yet you are showing more compassion for a vicious murderer than a fellow Christian. Of, wait, you said I'm not a real Christian, so I guess that means it's okay to not feel compassion for me and others here.

I'm not from Illinois, so I can't comment on what happened up there. Not any of my concern. This, however, is my concern because it happened in my neck of the woods. Insane or not, she should, at the very least, be put out of her misery. Treatment or not, do you really think this woman should ever be allowed to walk the streets again? Can "crazy" really be healed, like a broken leg?

The woman will live the rest of her life knowing what she did to her children. If she ever is "healed", how will she live the rest of her "normal" life knowing what she did? If you ask me, I have more compassion for her than you do.

Jim, if you ever murder five children, I'd be more than happy to come up to the cold, icy wilderness up there and sit on you too.:love2:

 

[Bro. James Reed]

Jim 1999, God bless you for your compassion. Executions do not honor God or a nation. I too, am very troubled by the hate and lack of love shown by many so-called "compassionate conservatives". Their bloodlust is appalling. Some would have made fine apprentice inquisitors to Torquemada. I hope someday the United States will leave the ranks of nations like Saudi Arabia and Iran, and instead join the civilized world by doing away with the national disgrace that is capital punishment.

As for Andrea Yates, it should be readily apparent to anyone that this woman has something seriously wrong with her mind.

Did you actually read his post???

What he wrote is completely lacking of anything that is compassionate. It is, however, chocked full of ultra-liberal mumbo jumbo. I hope he doesn't preach any of the mess he's left on this thread.

I would also question you about just what it means to be civilized? I'd bet that your idea of civility and mine would differ greatly.

 

[Ralph III]

Ralph, her children are beyond our prayers now. No one denigrates what they endured at the hands of their mother.

Magnetic Poles I realize the children are beyond our prayers now in that it is in Jesus's hands. But I can pray they knew Jesus as their Savior or were without sin in his eye's. I can also pray their suffering, while their mother held them under the water, was not as terrifying or horrible as it probably was. I can pray the friends and relatives of the children were comforted by the Lord.

If some want to pray that she is comfortable or gets treatment that is fine. I can guarantee this. I will not pray for her without also praying for her children or a least thinking of them.
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Again. How can anyone defend her without one mention of her children? Answer, because some people are so politically driven with their own causes that such tragedy truly matters not to them. Others should spare the sanctimonious hypocrisy. A true Christian is one who knows he needs Christs' salvation, and strives to be like him. But realizes he is condemned to sin and but dirty rags in God's eye's. Not one who thinks they are like Christ and beyond human error or sin. Such people are just asking God to humble them.

I would not advocate drowning her or executing her as some did. But I realize where those feelings come from. As their heart is truly with the children. They can always pray to God to grow in him and forgive them. Are others beyond this?

In Christ.

 

[Revmitchell]

Imagine you are a 7 year old child. You are grabed by your mother whom you love and count on for protection and shoved under the water. Can you imagine what is going through your mind right now? The fear, the panick, the utter desperation.

You cant stand it any more you are forced to make an attempt to take a breath but you are still under water. You lungs fill with pain and water as you are forced to cough and sputter!

And all the while all you can see is the bottom of the tub. And all the while all you can feel is the hand of your mothers hand on the back of your head. All the while this is going through your mind:

Why is mommy doing this? What did I do wrong? Why do I deserve this? How can I make it up to her? I wont do it again? Just tell me what I did wrong? Please mommy stop! I promise I wont ever do it again! Mommy! Mommy!Mommy! Moommmmyyy! Mo-

 

[Revmitchell]

If you can live with the fact that that happened five times (or ever how many children there were) then I say where is your compassion?

 

[PastorSBC1303]

Rev, I have thought of that aspect, and as a father of a 7 yr old it is just about more than I can handle...

 

[Magnetic Poles]

RevM, your description is all the more reason to believe that Mrs. Yates is certifiably insane.

 

[Revmitchell]

MY concern is for those innocent children. Her problems pale in comparison to those children. when I think of what each one of those children went through I lose any interest in concern or compassion for the mother.

As I have seen her on tv I see a well composed individual with no concern for what she has done. Well composed and well groomed. The insanity I want to see as a result of this type of action is something completely differnet.

To top that off I am convinced that insanity is a legal tactic used to provide the best defense a lawyer can provide. But then again our system isnt worried about the truth. Just about what it can prove.

However, on the day that andrea becomes broken and repentant I may change my mind.

 

[Jack Matthews]

From a legal standpoint, as an attorney, and with full realization that a legal definition of the term "insanity" is probably not adequate, I'd have to say that Mrs. Yates was insane by the legal definition. It is really hard to tell just by watching the sound bites of information from news broadcasts. Only God knows for certain and as a Christian, I hold the belief that she hasn't committed a sin for which there is no forgiveness. If she is a Christian, as has been the claim, God has forgiven her.

As far as whether justice was served or not, well, the basis for her retrial was the result of an incredible botch by the prosecution, using a non-existent episode of Law and Order as part of their case, and an even bigger botch by the defense for not detecting that error immediately. My questions would go to issues like whether there could have been a jury pool in Houston, or anywhere else in the country, that wasn't tainted by the publicity of the first case, and whether a retrial would have been fair to either the prosecution or to Andrea Yates.

 

[Ralph III]

Rev, I have thought of that aspect, and as a father of a 7 yr old it is just about more than I can handle...

Yes I agree and have thought of this also. It absolutely breaks your heart. I think some are incapable of seeing it or choose not to. It makes you realize to be vigilante in protecting one's family. God Blessraying:

 

[Revmitchell]

Imagine you are a 7 year old child. You are grabed by your mother whom you love and count on for protection and shoved under the water. Can you imagine what is going through your mind right now? The fear, the panick, the utter desperation.

You cant stand it any more you are forced to make an attempt to take a breath but you are still under water. You lungs fill with pain and water as you are forced to cough and sputter!

And all the while all you can see is the bottom of the tub. And all the while all you can feel is the hand of your mothers hand on the back of your head. All the while this is going through your mind:

Why is mommy doing this? What did I do wrong? Why do I deserve this? How can I make it up to her? I wont do it again? Just tell me what I did wrong? Please mommy stop! I promise I wont ever do it again! Mommy! Mommy!Mommy! Moommmmyyy! Mo-

Again I do not understand how this can be excused under any circumstances.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Again I do not understand how this can be excused under any circumstances.

Nor do I. I don't think anyone here has said she should be excused for doing what she did.

 

[Revmitchell]

The moment she is found no longer insane "legally" she will walk. No justice, no punishment, just excuses. The excuse is she is "legally insane. That my friend is excusing it.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

The moment she is found no longer insane "legally" she will walk. No justice, no punishment, just excuses. The excuse is she is "legally insane. That my friend is excusing it.

The likelihood of her ever seeing the outside world again is somewhere between slim and none. However, this brings up the moral issue of is it right to execute the insane or retarded. A debate for another thread perhaps?