Featured Andrew Fuller

Do you make a dime every time you use that tired ole' line?

Try to be more creative. I think people are worn out hearing you refer to s&j so often. No more bobbin' and weavin' from you.

 

When you reference "Gillite rigidity" are you speaking of certain Particular Baptists who claimed to have John Gill as their theological hero? Because in Gill's time the matter of foreign missions wasn't even on the radar.

 

Getting back to the OP

I have before me "By His Grace and for His Glory" by Thomas J. Nettles, from 2002.

What he says here is central to what he thinks about Fuller's view of so-called limited atonement. Nettles says Fuller did not occupy a unique position "or in any way isolate him as an amender of the historic Reformed understanding of limited atonement. He is in complete harmony with one way that consistent Calvinists have expounded that doctrine. While I personally prefer a different construction of limited atonement...to label Fuller as out of step with the historic understanding of limited atonement, or to construe his position as intentionally more sympathetic with universal or general atonement, would totally miss Fuller's point. His position is in precise harmony with Synod of Dort."

 

George Ella argues against 'duty faith' as taught by Fuller and his followers.

“If the unconverted are told it is their duty to believe in Christ then it is as sure as telling them it is their duty to make themselves alive in Christ, their duty to regenerate themselves, their duty to make themselves new creations in Christ and their duty to walk in that faith which it is their duty apparently to possess and exercise…A child cannot walk before he is born and a man cannot believe before he is born again.”

[correction]

That's Ella quoting Peter Meney.

 

Meney and Ella are not so balanced. I am a fellow who bought into Ella's stuff on Fuller (and other issues). No more. Michael Haykin, Thomas Nettles and others are sounder in history and they have no axe to grind. I used to frequent Ella's website frequently in the past. It is indeed fascinating. But you have to take him with a couple pinches of salt. I also was a subscriber of New Focus magazine. It had (and has) some quality material, but some noxious stuff mixed in as well.

That Meney quote is not biblically sound. And I certainly do believe in so-called duty faith. Despite the inability of man to comply with the law and to repent and believe under his own ability --he nevertheless is commanded to do so.

Do you recognize that the hyper-Calvinistic posotion of Meney has a lot in common with Arminianism?

 

Is the Hyper cal position basically mean that they would view a sinner receiving jesus thru/by faith as being a "good work?"

 

Isn't part of the error some teach on this part of the proble, as they would hold that even asking a sinner to receiv e kesus thru faith is a "good work?"

 

Did you answer my question? Nope.

Read my many posts on the topic you are using to derail the discussion of evangelism and what it accomplishes.

 

Evangelism/witnessing accomplished the truth of sinners getting saved, it changes their eternal destiny!

How much more life changing can it get then that?

 

So according to Calvinism, folks, predestined to damnation, i.e. non-elect before the foundation of the world, can through evangelism alter that foreordained outcome?

Often, Calvinists using double-speak provide disinformation to avoid truth.

 

What's the problem Van? He holds to sola fide, just like you; he holds to the gospel being the means to go heaven, just like you. That's the whole idee behind this popularization of Fullerism, to arrive at Calminianism!

Aren't you willing to compromise, just a little bit? Imagine the number of souls that could be added to the rolls in heaven through the evangelical efforts of Calminians! Don't you care enough about those souls to compromise just an itsy bitsy bit?

 

My problem is the claim made by Yeshua1 is not found anywhere in Calvinism. It is a fiction.

What is wrong with sticking with the truth? I believe God hates all liars.
Deliberate falsehood destroys fellowship, community action, trust, and harmony within the body of Christ.

Scripture says we can hasten the day of the Lord's return. Calvinism says well that does not really mean what it says, cause whatever has been predestined cannot be altered. Evangelism that says you cannot really trust what scripture says, let us present our own explanation, seems likely to be ineffective. Trust in God and trust in His Word are essential.

 

Maybe we'll be lucky and Yeshua1 will explain the seeming contradiction; even still yet, maybe we'll get even more lucky and Yeshua1 will actually build his case using scripture for once.

This is what I mean about it being nauseating to read/respond to your venom.

'Hastening the day', you mention that a lot; Yeshua1 is a died in the wool devout Dispy Christian Zionist, most of which also believe they can 'hasten the day' through their unconditional support of God's chosen nation, Israel.

So that's three things you and Yeshua1 have in common. You both hold to sola fide, you both believe the gospel is the means to go to heaven, and you both believe you can 'hasten the day' of Christ's return. So what's the problem Van? Why won't you compromise with your brother Calvinist?

But if the goal and mission of the church is to populate heaven you should be willing to compromise. I mean, we ARE talking about infinity here you know. Don't you care in the least about souls spending INFINITY in indescribable torture?

 

What is a devout Dispy Zionist though?

And again, do you have ANY NT examples that you can point to where a sinner gets saved. apart from rfeceivng jesus thru faith ?

No faith in jesus, no receiving Him as your Lord, you are eternally comdemned...

ANY passages state something other?

 

IMO, you are that epitome; I've debated you enough on eschatology to have formed that opinion.

No, I've already made it plain, obedience to the gospel is the only way one can be made whole. The gospel saves. Period. It does not impart immortality, neither does regenerate, nor does it send one to heaven, the gospel tells of those things. It's how lost sheep come home and become saved sheep. Obedience to the gospel is the only way His redeemed, born from above children can enter into the Sabbath rest of God.

....and you willy nilly insert 'eternity' into passages where it is not intended.

Any passages you can show 'saved' [sozo] to always unequivocally carry 'eternal' consequences?

 

What is wrong with sticking with the truth? I believe God hates all liars. Deliberate falsehood destroys fellowship, community action, trust, and harmony within the body of Christ.

Then you have a problem with John and Paul.

Revelation 21:8 But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

1 Timothy 1:10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,

Yes I believe we can hasten the day, just as scripture says, and you believe it does not mean what it says. Not much I can do with that.

 

You are either lost or saved, either in Christ, or in Adam, and his grace to save you was received thru faith in Him!

 

So all calvinists teach a false Gospel message, and we are all liars and deceivers of the truth?

 

This is a typical ploy used by the Calvinists on this forum, asking if I believe and then putting something I never said nor suggested. Note the absence of a quote.

Bill Clinton demonstrated this technique of saying something vague, then letting the listeners infer a falsehood. "I did not have sexual relations with that woman" uttered as if angry with finger waving. So the audience took away from the statement that they (Bill and that women) did not do the sorts of things that would put his semen on her blue dress.

Putting out a fiction by innuendo.

Yeshua1 constantly spouts assertions as if they reflected the Word of God but seldom connects his assertions with the scripture that actually supports the statement. And then in addition he puts out assertions that directly conflict with Calvinism, disinformation to make Calvinism look more biblical.

Here is the Yeshua1 quote:

Note Yeshua1 implies that folks not chosen before the foundation of the world can be saved through evangelism, changing their eternal destiny. This is not Calvinism's doctrine. It is disinformation.

 

I know I'm once again asking for something you've never done before, but show that to mean unregenerate or regenerate from scripture.

Lost and saved are terms used ONLY for SHEEP.

Lost sheep who obey the gospel become saved sheep and enter into the kingdom of God, the Sabbath rest of God, the promised land, the land of milk & honey.

Lost sheep who do not receive the gospel with faith spend their lives wandering in the waste places as, well, lost sheep.

Just like the Exodus generation, AFTER they were redeemed from Egypt they would not believe the gospel of the promised land and spent the rest of their lives wandering as lost sheep in the wilderness.