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Andy Stanley and Mass Deception

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JonC

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Have you dealt much with the post modern thinker? They do not believe in absolute truth. They do not believe The Bible is true because they do not believe anything is true. They believetruth is situationally relevant. They believe truth is different for each person. What is true for you may or may not be true for me. This is the carp that our schools and universities are indoctrinating our Children with. Stanley's approach is one of the more effective approaches I have seen used to deal with post modern thinking. "The Bible tells me so" and $1.75 will get you a cup of coffee when you are talking with a post modernist.
I believe this is what Stanley is trying to address – not to diminish Inerrancy but to witness to the lost without assuming they come from at least a “Christian culture”. I think this because Stanley has stated this is his intent and that he also believes Inerrancy important.

@Revmitchell 's argument that there are people who believe inerrancy keeps the lost from Coming to Christ is a strawman argument. No one is trying to toss out Inerrancy. The question is whether or not the doctrine should be a part of evangelism (when we witness to others are we expecting them to hold the same position as we hold….i.e., “this is true because it’s in the Bible”).

There are doctrines one must accept as a part of the gospel itself. Jesus is God. The Incarnation. Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection. That we have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. The question is whether or not one must accept Scripture as infallible as a part of the gospel….not whether or not Scripture is infallible.

To be forthcoming here - I do not care for Stanley's preaching. I find him often vague and appealing to the crowd. But this is probably more me than Stanley. I don't support his ministry, nor do I know enough about his teachings in other areas to have an opinion. If he teaches heresy then there should not be a reason to make assumptions. Address what he actually teaches. My point here is that we need to be more careful about making assumptions about people and degrading what God is doing through those who serve Him. Maybe Stanley does believe the Bible contains errors (regardless of his statements to the contrary). I don't know because I don't follow the guy. I praise God people are being saved through his ministry. If we are critical, we need to be critical about what he says on his own terms (we can't just ignore when he comes back and clarifies his statements) and not stand on assumptions.
 

blessedwife318

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The question is whether or not the doctrine should be a part of evangelism (when we witness to others are we expecting them to hold the same position as we hold….i.e., “this is true because it’s in the Bible”).

No one is arguing that a unsaved person must accept inerrancy.

The argument is Stanely is giving up the most powerful tool at our disposal in an effort to pander to the culture.

An unsaved person is not going at accept "the apostle Paul said..." any more than "the Bible says..." because it's the same source. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't use it as the Word of God is powerful. Stanley actually put the Bible on the same level as the Qur'an which should make any believer outraged.

Stanley is trying to argue people into the kingdom with man's philosophy.

And it's nothing new. He is just going down the same path that the liberals denominations did at the turn of the 20th century when they decided to give up parts of the Bible In light of "Science" and we see how well that has worked for those denominations.

As I said earlier the Biblical example is to quote or allude to Scripture and let it stand on its own. No apologetic argument just a presuppositions on the part of the speaker that it is true.

Just as Genesis doesn't start with a defense of God, neither should Christians start to witness with a defense of God's word. Put it out there and let the living and active Word do what it will.



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JonC

Moderator
Moderator
No one is arguing that a unsaved person must accept inerrancy.

The argument is Stanely is giving up the most powerful tool at our disposal in an effort to pander to the culture.

An unsaved person is not going at accept "the apostle Paul said..." any more than "the Bible says..." because it's the same source. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't use it as the Word of God is powerful. Stanley actually put the Bible on the same level as the Qur'an which should make any believer outraged.

Stanley is trying to argue people into the kingdom with man's philosophy.

And it's nothing new. He is just going down the same path that the liberals denominations did at the turn of the 20th century when they decided to give up parts of the Bible In light of "Science" and we see how well that has worked for those denominations.

As I said earlier the Biblical example is to quote or allude to Scripture and let it stand on its own. No apologetic argument just a presuppositions on the part of the speaker that it is true.

Just as Genesis doesn't start with a defense of God, neither should Christians start to witness with a defense of God's word. Put it out there and let the living and active Word do what it will.



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I would agree if I understood Stanley as putting the Bible at the same level as the Qur'an. We do not disagree on principle, scripture, or doctrine here. Where we disagree is that I understand Stanley as saying the Bible is no more or less than any other book in the eyes of the world.

Our disagreement is over what Stanley is truly saying. And, as I said before, I believe he is intentionally vague and controversial.So I may very well be wrong and misunderstanding Stanley's comments to reflect a world view in evangelism. I don't believe do, of course. But this is our disagreement, not doctrine but how we take Stanley.
 

blessedwife318

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I would agree if I understood Stanley as putting the Bible at the same level as the Qur'an. We do not disagree on principle, scripture, or doctrine here. Where we disagree is that I understand Stanley as saying the Bible is no more or less than any other book in the eyes of the world.
He did that in his response that you posted.

It shouldn't matter what the world thinks, Our job is to give them the Gospel, and we do that pointing one way or another to the Word of God. The Bible is powerful enough to handle the doubts of a depraved culture.

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JonC

Moderator
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He did that in his response that you posted.

It shouldn't matter what the world thinks, Our job is to give them the Gospel, and we do that pointing one way or another to the Word of God. The Bible is powerful enough to handle the doubts of a depraved culture.

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I don't see that he did. All I can say is I am grateful God is using his ministry for the kingdom. If he has drifted from sound doctrine then this is unfortunate, but he's not the first.

We don't change the gospel for the world, I agree. We stand firm. But at the same time we are not to ignore effective communication. Right or wrong, I see this as the issue Stanley is trying to address. And I believe he could have done it better.
 

blessedwife318

Well-Known Member
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I don't see that he did. All I can say is I am grateful God is using his ministry for the kingdom. If he has drifted from sound doctrine then this is unfortunate, but he's not the first.

We don't change the gospel for the world, I agree. We stand firm. But at the same time we are not to ignore effective communication. Right or wrong, I see this as the issue Stanley is trying to address. And I believe he could have done it better.

And what makes you think he being used? Filling seats is not a sign of blessing.
And drifting from sound doctrine is much more than "unfortunate" especially when it causes one to present another gospel.
Entertaining goats when you are charged with feeding sheep is tragic on multiple levels.

Even his Easter speech didn't have a gospel presentation that could save(He never said why Jesus died, the significance of the resurrection, the need for repentance, and didnt even define sin)

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