Andy Stanley

[webdog]

After doing a few quick searchs online for Andy Stanley I see where he could probably be labeled Emergent. He associates with a few that I tend to stay away from like Brian McLaren, Rob Bell, Donald Miller and yes even Rick Warren. I know I will get the normal jabs from the libs in here, but birds of a feather flock together. lol

I think I will tread very carefully concerning any study materials by Andy.

So if we don't share your sentiment we are liberal? :laugh:

 

[webdog]

How is he tolerant? Show me. How is he accepting? Show me. Because in that clip he isn't saying anything about homosexuality except that he is using an extreme example of hurt and harm to talk about how we extend grace to people.

I actually know a lot about how Northpoint runs their ministries and they are anything but accomodating to sin. Andy's point, when listened to as a part of his whole sermon, is really good. He isn't condoning immoral behavior but pointing out that even in terribly immoral behavior there is still room for grace.

Does he say it like you would? No, but he's probably got a different context than you do.



Where in the WORLD did he say he tolerated a position for these two guys? Listen to it again, does he say that? Or does he say that they handled the situation in accordance to their polity, removed them from the greeter team, and handled the situation appropriately. (Actually they handled it in accordance with Matthew 18, unlike Andy's current detractors.)

I think there is ALOT of inference going on here and a lot of people making wild assumptions about a good man and a good ministry that are based in seeking to imperil a ministry and harm the spread of the Gospel.

Perhaps this is the most essential point of the whole thing: his story isn't about homosexuality. It is about how we as Christians must extend grace to people who hurt us, even to those who hurt us so badly and in such a terrible way that it destroys our family.

I'm sad sickened by how so many want to pile on criticism so quickly without listening and prudently thinking.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[SolaSaint]

So if we don't share your sentiment we are liberal? :laugh:

Are you a Liberal Webdog?

 

[percho]

How is he tolerant? Show me. How is he accepting? Show me. Because in that clip he isn't saying anything about homosexuality except that he is using an extreme example of hurt and harm to talk about how we extend grace to people.

I actually know a lot about how Northpoint runs their ministries and they are anything but accomodating to sin. Andy's point, when listened to as a part of his whole sermon, is really good. He isn't condoning immoral behavior but pointing out that even in terribly immoral behavior there is still room for grace.

Does he say it like you would? No, but he's probably got a different context than you do.



Where in the WORLD did he say he tolerated a position for these two guys? Listen to it again, does he say that? Or does he say that they handled the situation in accordance to their polity, removed them from the greeter team, and handled the situation appropriately. (Actually they handled it in accordance with Matthew 18, unlike Andy's current detractors.)

I think there is ALOT of inference going on here and a lot of people making wild assumptions about a good man and a good ministry that are based in seeking to imperil a ministry and harm the spread of the Gospel.

Perhaps this is the most essential point of the whole thing: his story isn't about homosexuality. It is about how we as Christians must extend grace to people who hurt us, even to those who hurt us so badly and in such a terrible way that it destroys our family.

I'm sad sickened by how so many want to pile on criticism so quickly without listening and prudently thinking.

That was how I also understood it and I listened with the intent of holding him to the fire, which I should not have done.

But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Assuming, which I believe we should, that, "shall not inherit the kingdom of God," there is in the same context as, 1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Does that mean at the moment of your death you had say, hatred or wrath in your heart you won't inherit the kingdom of God? Or does it say that the elect having been given the Spirit of God are not subject to the penalty of the law and by grace will inherit the kingdom of God, as one born again
as in 1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.?

Do we have to be in the flesh perfect, perfect sinless flesh and blood beings before death to inherit the kingdom of God?

God in electing but we are trying to determine all to be elected who walk an aisle or say a prayer.

 

[MB]

http://www.dennyburk.com/andy-stanley-the-megachurch-and-homosexuality/

saw this on facebook....does not look good. WARNING...listening to this is sickening

listen at the 22-27 minute mark......can you believe this?????

This is an abomonation.Singing Christmas carols together???? 33-35 minute mark....he is clueless....indefensible

This stinks a man is not guilty by not doing something. I'm affraid Denny Burk is a false accuser and a hypocrite as well.
MB

 

[quantumfaith]

5. If Andy (Northpoint Ministries) takes a stated position that in any way winks at, is "tolerant of", excuses, dismisses etc the sin of homosexuality, that would be a "game changer" for me personally

I really liked the sermon by Stanley except for the toleration of homosexuality. He seems like a great teacher/preacher. I wish I could communicate like him. However after your comment above I must ask, did you listen or watch the sermon? If so, didn't you come away with the feeling he did wink at or tolerate these two homosexual men to hold positions within his church system?

No Rick, at this moment I have not. I listen to his messages every week. I would like some clarity from him on the matter.

 

[quantumfaith]

How is he tolerant? Show me. How is he accepting? Show me. Because in that clip he isn't saying anything about homosexuality except that he is using an extreme example of hurt and harm to talk about how we extend grace to people.

I actually know a lot about how Northpoint runs their ministries and they are anything but accomodating to sin. Andy's point, when listened to as a part of his whole sermon, is really good. He isn't condoning immoral behavior but pointing out that even in terribly immoral behavior there is still room for grace.

Does he say it like you would? No, but he's probably got a different context than you do.



Where in the WORLD did he say he tolerated a position for these two guys? Listen to it again, does he say that? Or does he say that they handled the situation in accordance to their polity, removed them from the greeter team, and handled the situation appropriately. (Actually they handled it in accordance with Matthew 18, unlike Andy's current detractors.)

I think there is ALOT of inference going on here and a lot of people making wild assumptions about a good man and a good ministry that are based in seeking to imperil a ministry and harm the spread of the Gospel.

Perhaps this is the most essential point of the whole thing: his story isn't about homosexuality. It is about how we as Christians must extend grace to people who hurt us, even to those who hurt us so badly and in such a terrible way that it destroys our family.

I'm sad sickened by how so many want to pile on criticism so quickly without listening and prudently thinking.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[webdog]

Are you a Liberal Webdog?

I don't share your sentiments...you tell me

 

[SolaSaint]

I don't share your sentiments...you tell me

Well I'm a conservative Christian, call me a fundy if you want, I'll wear that badge. I'm not a legalist though. I am very critical of anyone who waters down the gospel and essential doctrines of the church. SO how do you describe your positions?

 

[webdog]

Well I'm a conservative Christian, call me a fundy if you want, I'll wear that badge. I'm not a legalist though. I am very critical of anyone who waters down the gospel and essential doctrines of the church. SO how do you describe your positions?

The same way...which shows that what one person considers "watering down the Gospel" and "essential doctrines of the church" another may not as both are quite subjective.

 

[SolaSaint]

No Rick, at this moment I have not. I listen to his messages every week. I would like some clarity from him on the matter.

QF,

I think he was very clear in his sermon that he tolerated homosexual couples holding positions in his church.

 

[SolaSaint]

The same way...which shows that what one person considers "watering down the Gospel" and "essential doctrines of the church" another may not as both are quite subjective.

Then you are a liberal if you think that the gospel and essential doctrines are subjective. If your not basing your theology upon objective absolute truths then your feet are fully planted in thin air my friend. Unless I misread you which I do often.

 

[quantumfaith]

QF,

I think he was very clear in his sermon that he tolerated homosexual couples holding positions in his church.

I did not get that, but thanks for sharing your perspective. And I am conservative too.

 

[Iconoclast]

One of the rare occasions I am in agreement. I am looking forward to some clarification, until then my "respect" for Andy will remain. Here are some of my observations.

1. Often times the harshest critics of others is not always motivated by love and grace, but to score political (theological) points. History is replete with such criticisms, only to find some time later, that the loudest critic had things in their lives equally as shocking. If we had God's ability to see past the veneer and into the depths of mens hearts and souls, even those of immense respectability like Al Mohler (pick your scholar) we would most assuredly blush at the things that often reside there.

2. At the moment, I find it interesting that the criticism is centered around what was "not said", that being a condemnation of conduct. Although the more general sin of adultery was in fact addressed.

3. As I listened, I personally took the point of the message to be the collision of two truths of scripture and our lives, Grace and Reality, and how that plays out. When we stray into sin, we want Grace, when we feel things are "all good" in our lives, we love to point out the sin in others feeling as though we might be above such.

4. Not sure I see (understand) the application of Matthew 18 here. I don't see Andy "sinning" against anyone here. As for whether he applied it in the circumstance he spoke, do we know he did not?

5. If Andy (Northpoint Ministries) takes a stated position that in any way winks at, is "tolerant of", excuses, dismisses etc the sin of homosexuality, that would be a "game changer" for me personally.

QF,

like i said...i have no horse in this race so to speak.
My reference to Mt 18....was in reference to the wife's protection.

The husband somewhere along the line demonstates unfaithfulness, leading to adultery, fornication, sodomy.....His sin needed to be confronted by the eledership of the church after His wife asked him to repent.

This whole area needs major clarification for the good of the church:thumbsup: Where these steps taken????

Then as the sodomite husband remained unrepentant....he needed to be excommunicated so as to not infect the body...1 cor5....also helping to protect the wife......The goal of Mt 18 is to restore someone from the practice of sin......if they repent.......not let them cast off God's law.and mock the church and it's God given authority...

A church that does not use church discipline ...is no church of Christ:thumbsup:


This was not a story of people who were not professed christians who were entangled in sin.....this happened in a church setting.

5. If Andy (Northpoint Ministries) takes a stated position that in any way winks at, is "tolerant of", excuses, dismisses etc the sin of homosexuality, that would be a "game changer" for me personally.

[/QUOTE]

The church world does not need anymore ted haggards,etc....hopefully this was poor communication....that needs to be clarified and corrected.

 

[webdog]

Then you are a liberal if you think that the gospel and essential doctrines are subjective. If your not basing your theology upon objective absolute truths then your feet are fully planted in thin air my friend. Unless I misread you which I do often.

Our interpretations of what constitutes truth is what I was referring to. You say Warren and Stanley teach doctrine contrary to the truth. I disagree.

 

[quantumfaith]

Our interpretations of what constitutes truth is what I was referring to. You say Warren and Stanley teach doctrine contrary to the truth. I disagree.

I agree with you WD. Stanley is a phenomenal teacher of biblical truths, principles and truths. He is one of the most engaging teachers I know. I do hope, as I have stated, that he will offer some clarification, though I suspect a clarification in any form would not quiet some detractors. I am patiently waiting to hear from him and Northpoint's position.

 

[Tom Butler]

I want to make sure I heard Andy Stanley correctly, so help me out here.

Did he not say that he removed the men from positions of service because one of the men was still married to his wife, which he described as adultery, since he was involved in a sexual relationship with someone not his wife?

So it was not homosexuality that was the problem, but adultery. Did I get that right?

 

[quantumfaith]

From an application to serve in family ministry at Northpoint.


Regarding Sexual Behavior
We teach that sex was created by God as an expression of intimacy between a man and woman within the context of marriage. Volunteers who embrace lifestyles or behaviors that conflict with this teaching will eventually find themselves having to pretend to be something they are not or believe something they don't. In an effort to protect you from a potentially awkward situation, we ask the following:

If you are involved in a sexual relationship and are not married, we ask that you not volunteer in family ministry at this time.
If you are pursuing a same sex relationship, we ask that you not volunteer in family ministry at this time.
In the spirit of being a good role model, if you are single and living with a member of the opposite sex, we ask that you not volunteer at this time. We do not want to put you in the awkward position of having to explain your arrangement if members of your group visit your home.
If you are married and are currently involved in a sexual relationship outside of your marriage, we ask that you not volunteer at this time.

 

[SolaSaint]

Our interpretations of what constitutes truth is what I was referring to. You say Warren and Stanley teach doctrine contrary to the truth. I disagree.

Kind of. I would say I feel they both tickle ears and leave out the entire counsel of God. They both teach truths but but stay clear of offending with the whole truth.

 

[quantumfaith]

Warren Asks Mohler to Apologize for Megachurch Headline



By Lillian Kwon , Christian Post Reporter
May 2, 2012|6:22 pm
A prominent evangelical's recent blog headline – "Is the Megachurch the New Liberalism?" – has irked Pastor Rick Warren, who is calling for an apology for the "sensational" title.

Warren, founder of Saddleback Church, sent a tweet to Dr. Albert Mohler, president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, on Tuesday, saying: "A TITLE questioning1000s of churches' orthodoxy due to size is unChristlike.U need to apologize to pastors Al."

In a blog post Tuesday, Mohler described the emergence and growth of the megachurch (which draw at least 2,000 in attendance) and acknowledged that they have "helped to anchor conservative Christianity" in the United States.

At the same time, he noted that some megachurches have adapted to the ever-changing American culture, abandoning certain biblical truths.

Mohler went on to express concerns over a recent message preached by Andy Stanley, pastor of North Point Community Church in Alpharetta, Ga. As he described the account of a gay couple, Stanley mentioned the sin of adultery (one partner was still married to his wife) but did not affirm the sinfulness of homosexuality.

"The inescapable impression left by the account was that the sin of concern was adultery, but not homosexuality," Mohler wrote, adding that he hopes Stanley will clarify his view on the issue.

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"We must embrace the truth with the humility of a sinner saved only by grace, but we must embrace it fully," he added. "Once again, the megachurches are on the leading edge. We must pray that they will lead into faithfulness, and not into a new liberalism."

Taking issue with the title of the blog, Warren commented: "@albertmohler Would a sensational blog title 'Are THE Seminaries the New Liberals?' be fair if 1 seminary pres. messed up?"

In response, Mohler tweeted back: "@RickWarren Glad to hear from you, Rick. I would certainly not be offended by that title ... In fact, I might use it. Megathanks."

Notably, both Warren and Mohler are megachurch pastors and belong to the Southern Baptist Convention. They both affirm that homosexuality is a sin.

While some have responded to Warren's tweets saying there was no blanket accusation against megachurches in Mohler's blog, one researcher did agree that the headline was unfair.

"As Rick Warren tweeted, it is unfair to paint all mega pastors with the Stanley brush or for that matter, the Schuller, the Long or the Osteen brush," Scott Thumma, who specializes in research on megachurches, stated to The Christian Post.

"As a group, megachurches are a big target, but it doesn't help the Christian cause either to accuse indirectly 1,500 faithful pastors and 6-7 million attendees with the 'L' word on the basis of one pastor's issue."

Stanley delivered the account of the gay couple last month during his 8-part message series titled "Christian." He told CP that he may issue a statement on the matter but requested that people listen to the entire series, which concludes this weekend.