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anihilation or immortality for the lost?
- Thread starter BobRyan
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Both Peter and Jude argue that these cases are in fact "examples" -- "in undergoig the punishment of eternal fire". So we have to allow that statement to be true in some sense.
Jude
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal (everlasting) fire.
2 Peter 2:6
and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;
Which is the point of difficulty in your position.
The point of weakness in your argument is that you need to find away for "Destroy both body and soul in fiery hell" to NOT mean "destruction by reducing them to ashes" AS IF that is not "allowed" based on all the various meanings for Apollumi.
Yet we see Apollumi used in the case of "Fire and Brimstone" -- "eternal Fire" as an "example of undergoing the punishment" of the same - from the sequence above - it shows the very thing that your argument adamantly insists cannot be the case if the word Apollumi is applied.
Hence your problem remains.
in Christ,
Bob
Jude
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal (everlasting) fire.
2 Peter 2:6
and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;
Originally Posted by Dr. Walter
Bob,
I like your spirit of seeking to be honest with the Biblical text but I think your reasoning has been tainted by making wrong turns with the facts of Scripture. I will agree with you that we have "to allow that statement to be true in some sense"
Which is the point of difficulty in your position.
The point of weakness in your argument is that you need to find away for "Destroy both body and soul in fiery hell" to NOT mean "destruction by reducing them to ashes" AS IF that is not "allowed" based on all the various meanings for Apollumi.
Yet we see Apollumi used in the case of "Fire and Brimstone" -- "eternal Fire" as an "example of undergoing the punishment" of the same - from the sequence above - it shows the very thing that your argument adamantly insists cannot be the case if the word Apollumi is applied.
Hence your problem remains.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
1. No immortal body is promised to the wicked at the resurrection.
2. There is no "eternity in the lake of fire" text in scripture.
3. Christ is the one that says that "BOTH body AND soul" are destroyed in fiery hell.
4. In Ezek 18:4 we have "the soul that sins it shall die" - the soul that is "destroyed" as Christ said in Matt 10:28 -- "dies" as God said in Ezek 18:4.
What is not to get?
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
1Tim 6:16 "God alone posses immortality".
But in 1Cor 15 see that "this MORTAL puts on immortality" at the resurrection of the righteous.
in Christ,
Bob
There are two resurrections Bob. Do you agree?
What happens at the second resurrection? Do the bodies of the unjust rise? If so what kind of bodies will they have when they stand before the Great White Throne Judgment, just before they get cast into the Lake of Fire (Rev.20:11-15).
Please explain.
1 Corinthians 15:52-54 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Is the breath of God immortal?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
No - God is immortal. God is a person and so can have attributes like immortality.
His breath is not another person.
Ps 104:25-30 all the animals have the breath of God in them - if God takes it back -- they die. (Also stated in Job 34:14-15).
(Or were you thinking "all dogs go to heaven"??)
in Christ,
Bob
His breath is not another person.
Ps 104:25-30 all the animals have the breath of God in them - if God takes it back -- they die. (Also stated in Job 34:14-15).
(Or were you thinking "all dogs go to heaven"??)
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
They are raised mortal - and suffer "the destruction of BOTH body and soul" Matt 10:28 in the Lake of fire and brimstone.
Hence Paul says in Phil 3 that he seeks to "attain to the resurrection" - specifically the first resurrection. The one in Rev 20:4-5 that takes place before the 1000 years. The one he describes in 1Thess 4, in 1Cor 15, 2Cor 5 etc.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The chapter of 1Cor 15 is specifically speaking of the first resurrection "those who are CHRISTS" that are "raised at his coming"
1Cor 15
16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.
20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits[/b], after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
We see Christ coming in Rev 19 - and in Rev 20 we see the first resurrection - of the "Blessed and holy" for John says "over THESE the second death has no power"
In 1Thess 4 they are called "the DEAD in Christ" who have "fallen asleep".
in Christ,
Bob
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Dr. Walter
New Member
It is interesting how you just dismissed the rest of my arguments on the use of the term appollumi. It is also interesting that you take what is obviously a type of eternal destruction (Sodom and Gomorah) but then literalize that particular portion you need to defend your escatological doctrine. This type of twisted thinking is impossible to rationally deal with because such a mind will always randomly literalize or spiritualize what is needed to fit and defend error.
In the literal type all material things were reduced to ashes and thus "destroyed" in that literal sense. However, to suppose this LITERAL sense cross over to the eschatalogical future judgement makes physical death no different than the future judgement as one is simply the repeat of the other - reduced to ashes." Furthermore, such a literalization of one aspect assumes there is no immaterial substance of man at the judgement that is dealt with any different than at Sodom or Gomorah or a physical death and that assumption does not stand up to the overall context of Scripture.
Something immaterial resides in the material body so that Paul could identify it as "me" in distinction from his body. This "me" would be absent from the body but present with the Lord in an aorist tense simeltaneous action.
However, what your logic is ultimately based upon is how the SDA defines "soul" as merely biological life and "spirit" as merely "breath" thus making no practical distinction between animal and human life. This does not take into account that man was made in the "image of God" where both terms "spirit" and "soul' are applied directly to God as an immaterial being capable of existence outside or inside a material body as opposed to animal life which has no existence apart from a material body. This does not take into account that the waters and the earth brought forth animal life but God Himself "breathed" into man plural "spirits." A Spirit being has not "breath" because it has no physical body with lungs and so the imbreathing was impartation of a spiritual nature like unto God that exists within and without the material habitat and that is precisely why Paul distinguished "me" from his material body as existing inside it here on earth or outside it there in heaven with God.
In the literal type all material things were reduced to ashes and thus "destroyed" in that literal sense. However, to suppose this LITERAL sense cross over to the eschatalogical future judgement makes physical death no different than the future judgement as one is simply the repeat of the other - reduced to ashes." Furthermore, such a literalization of one aspect assumes there is no immaterial substance of man at the judgement that is dealt with any different than at Sodom or Gomorah or a physical death and that assumption does not stand up to the overall context of Scripture.
Something immaterial resides in the material body so that Paul could identify it as "me" in distinction from his body. This "me" would be absent from the body but present with the Lord in an aorist tense simeltaneous action.
However, what your logic is ultimately based upon is how the SDA defines "soul" as merely biological life and "spirit" as merely "breath" thus making no practical distinction between animal and human life. This does not take into account that man was made in the "image of God" where both terms "spirit" and "soul' are applied directly to God as an immaterial being capable of existence outside or inside a material body as opposed to animal life which has no existence apart from a material body. This does not take into account that the waters and the earth brought forth animal life but God Himself "breathed" into man plural "spirits." A Spirit being has not "breath" because it has no physical body with lungs and so the imbreathing was impartation of a spiritual nature like unto God that exists within and without the material habitat and that is precisely why Paul distinguished "me" from his material body as existing inside it here on earth or outside it there in heaven with God.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
There is nothing random about my pointing to the glaringly obvious fact that your wooden restriction on Appollumi attempts to flatly contradict scripture - where we have Appolumi applied to Sodom and Gomorrah's destruction by "eternal fire" in "fire and brimstone" stated as being "destroyed them by reducing them to ashes" -- and then insist that such a meaning CANNOT be applied to Appolumi in Matt 10:28 "by definition".
Your "by definition" limit - was abolished by the text of scripture itself. As well as the Lexicon showing that DESTROY is one of the valid meanings for Appollumi (- anonther detail you conveniently ignore).
Not so. The torment in fire and brimstone (Rev 14:10) that is sufferred by the wicked - is far worse than the first death.
Also the fact that not only is their body reduced to ashed "from dust to dust" (Genesis 3) - but also their soul is put to death (Ezek 18:4 -- another point you keep ignoring) their soul is "destroyed" (Matt 10:28) -- it is very different from the first death.
On the contrary - Matt 10:28 distinctly proves an immaterial essence that survives death - such that the person can be said to "sleep" John11, 1Thess4, 1Cor 15 instead of to "not exist".
Furthermore - as John 5 points out - they are raised bodily at the 2nd resurrection - and as Matt 10 points out they are destroyed "body and soul" at that point.
Indeed the essence of Paul the person would go from the old body - "back to God who gave it " (Eccl 12) and then be given a new body as Paul said in 1Cor 15 "At Christ's coming".
Not correct.
in Eccl 3 Solomon tells us that the spirit of the animals does not go back to God at death.
In Eccl 12 the spirit of all mankind goes to God when they die.
That soul is the essence of the person and it survives death just as Christ said in Matt 10:28 - but in the dormant state that Christ speaks of in John 11 regarding Lazarus the person "Our friend Lazarus SLEEPS I go that I may wake HIM".
1Tim 6:16 "GOD ALONE possess immortality"
1Cor 15 speaking of the resurrection "this MORTAL must put on IMMORTALITY".
in Christ,
Bob
Dr. Walter
New Member
Again, you are insisting on literalizing it in a type for application to the antitype (Mt. 10:28). The fact is, that what God can do is being contrasted to that of men in Matthew 10:28 rather than compared to what men can do to the body and soul. Man can burn a body and reduce it to ashes but he cannot apolummi the soul only God can and God does it "IN" hades not "by" hades. Therefore, only the bodies were "reduced to ashes" in Sodom and Goromah but not their "souls" as man cannot apollumi the soul - only God can.
The term "sleep" does not mean a dormant unconcious state but rather the state of rest and refreshment in contrast to what Jesus said saints would be experiencing in this world - in this world ye shall sufffer tribulation. Scientists state the the most active time of the human mind is in sleep. It is activity without interaction with this present world. Paul could hardly say that either unconscious existence or anihilation is "gain." What he describes as "gain" by death of the body is "to be present with the Lord." The double Aorist infinitive demands simeltaneous action with no time expiring between the two actions but they occur at the same moment in time. Your position is founded upon pick and select meanings and texts while avoiding the complete Biblical evidences.
The term "sleep" does not mean a dormant unconcious state but rather the state of rest and refreshment in contrast to what Jesus said saints would be experiencing in this world - in this world ye shall sufffer tribulation. Scientists state the the most active time of the human mind is in sleep. It is activity without interaction with this present world. Paul could hardly say that either unconscious existence or anihilation is "gain." What he describes as "gain" by death of the body is "to be present with the Lord." The double Aorist infinitive demands simeltaneous action with no time expiring between the two actions but they occur at the same moment in time. Your position is founded upon pick and select meanings and texts while avoiding the complete Biblical evidences.
There is nothing random about my pointing to the glaringly obvious fact that your wooden restriction on Appollumi attempts to flatly contradict scripture - where we have Appolumi applied to Sodom and Gomorrah's destruction by "eternal fire" in "fire and brimstone" stated as being "destroyed them by reducing them to ashes" -- and then insist that such a meaning CANNOT be applied to Appolumi in Matt 10:28 "by definition".
Your "by definition" limit - was abolished by the text of scripture itself. As well as the Lexicon showing that DESTROY is one of the valid meanings for Appollumi (- anonther detail you conveniently ignore).
Not so. The torment in fire and brimstone (Rev 14:10) that is sufferred by the wicked - is far worse than the first death.
Also the fact that not only is their body reduced to ashed "from dust to dust" (Genesis 3) - but also their soul is put to death (Ezek 18:4 -- another point you keep ignoring) their soul is "destroyed" (Matt 10:28) -- it is very different from the first death.
On the contrary - Matt 10:28 distinctly proves an immaterial essence that survives death - such that the person can be said to "sleep" John11, 1Thess4, 1Cor 15 instead of to "not exist".
Furthermore - as John 5 points out - they are raised bodily at the 2nd resurrection - and as Matt 10 points out they are destroyed "body and soul" at that point.
Indeed the essence of Paul the person would go from the old body - "back to God who gave it " (Eccl 12) and then be given a new body as Paul said in 1Cor 15 "At Christ's coming".
Not correct.
in Eccl 3 Solomon tells us that the spirit of the animals does not go back to God at death.
In Eccl 12 the spirit of all mankind goes to God when they die.
That soul is the essence of the person and it survives death just as Christ said in Matt 10:28 - but in the dormant state that Christ speaks of in John 11 regarding Lazarus the person "Our friend Lazarus SLEEPS I go that I may wake HIM".
1Tim 6:16 "GOD ALONE possess immortality"
1Cor 15 speaking of the resurrection "this MORTAL must put on IMMORTALITY".
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
How does that solve your problem? You seem to be arguing that God alone can destroy both body and soul (in fiery hell) - but man can only destroy soul. In the text of Matt 10 God takes the concept of "Kill" and takes it up a notch to "destroy". Man "kills" the body - but God "destroys the body" not only the body but "BOTH body AND soul" in fiery hell.
My argument is that when we look for an example of "Apollumi" applied to the case of the "punishment of eternal fire" where "Fire and brimstone" is used - and where "Apollumi" is applied - we find it in the case of Sodom and Gomorroa that specifically as stated to be "an example" of that kind of destruction.
Not true in this universe --
Hence Jesus's "proof of the resurrection" in Matt 22 that is BASED on the unconscious dormant state of the saints in death.
Let me guess - you do some of your best work while you sleep?
Just kidding. The thought just came to mind
By contrast scripture says that those who sleep have "no planning" no "activity" and in fact "in that very day their thoughts cease".
So - I am sticking with "dormant" and "unconscious".
Indeed - death is the "unclothed state" having neither the immortal body of 1Cor 15 that we get "at Christ's coming" nor this "decaying tent" that we have in this life - in fact Paul says we do NOT "desire" that intermediate state in 2Cor 5.
But in Phil 1 Paul speaks of the 1Cor 15 state of having the immortal body - which is the point that Paul says in 1Thess 4 we are "WITH the Lord" -- or as Paul states it in 2Thess 2:1 "our gathering together to Him".
There is not one text in all of scripture that says "death of the body IS TO BE present with the Lord".
No not one.
But it is a nice one to "imagine" is it not?
in Christ,
Bob
Dr. Walter
New Member
Life and death are merely two states of existence. Spiritually "dead" humans have physical life and continue to exist. Only God is incapable of death and thus immortal by nature (that is why the Son of God had to become a man and take upon human nature in addition to His immortal divine nature). All created beings are capable of death. Satan continues to exist in a state of death. Humans are capable of death. Only God is immortal by nature and immortality must be derived from God by all created beings.
Jesus told Martha that he that beleiveth in him "shall NEVER die" and he said this in the context of a buried lazerus. The body of Lazerus obviously succumbs to death just as the body of Martha eventually succumbed to physical death and therefore there must be some aspect of Marththa and Lazerus that did not succumb to death and which Jesus demands will "NEVER" die.
I Corinthians 15 is concerned with the DEATH of the physical body not with the soul of saints. It is their dead physical bodies that put on "immortallity" at the resurrection or incapability to never experience PHYSICAL death again. The new birth imparts immortality to the spirit of the saint so that we possess eternal life NOW in the spirit of man (Jn. 3:6; 5:24) and therefore Jesus says we have "passed from death unto life" in our spirit (Jn. 5:24) and shall not come into condemnation - judgement unto death. Jesus uses the perfect tense in John 5:24 for the word "passed" indicating a completed action in the past that continues in a completed state and that completed state cannot be changed in the future or else they could "come into condemnation" unto death.
Bob, do you have ears to hear and eyes to see?
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You have a number of problems with this Bob.
Look at the passage:
Revelation 20:10-15 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
--Here is context:
The beast (the antichrist) and the false prophet (the world religious leader) are both mortal individuals that deceived people during the Tribulation Period of seven years. They along with the devil will be cast into the Lake of fire and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever There is no annihilation here. No allegory here. It is a literal passage telling us the truth about future of these individuals.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
--This judgment is not on earth as you suppose. It is in heaven as it clearly says. You are clearly wrong. In fact both heaven and earth flee away. There will be a new heaven and a new earth. A mortal God cannot stand before a holy God. No man can see God and live.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
--The dead are the unsaved, those who are separated from God. There is no reference to the saved here. The degree of judgment received will be according to their works. This gives some credence to the view that there will be, somehow, degrees of punishment in the Lake of Fire, though we don't know how that is possible. The sentence of judgment is given by God in heaven. It is a condemnation to the Lake of Fire.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
--The extent of this judgment is massive in scope. Whether buried at sea or at earth, or whether in hell, the bodies of all unsaved will rise, and they will face this final judgment in their resurrected bodies. One cannot stand before God without being in a resurrected body.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
--The judgment is sure. There is no escape.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
--It is applicable to all who are not saved; all who do not have their names written in the book of life. The saved will not be there. They will have a resurrected body that will endure suffering forever and ever (vs 10) in eternal torment, separated from God.
We may not like it but that is the truth that God teaches.
If there is eternal life; there must be eternal death--separation from God for all eternity. God is a just God.