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Anne Graham Lotz Preaching to Evagelists
- Thread starter Major B
- Start date
Diane,
I have been involved in many of Kay Arthur's precept bible studies and my hubsand and I have even trained in precepts...but,we did have a problem with some of the women training and teaching the men...our red flag went up then....long ago,Kay was real careful to only let the men teach the men on the videos,etc...but it has become much more liberal in that area lately. I see your concerns and agree with you.
We have sought out more biblcally sound teachers that do follow this principle and have realized there is some good study helps out there that do follow the scriptural example of men teaching and leading other men,couples,etc.
Molly
I have been involved in many of Kay Arthur's precept bible studies and my hubsand and I have even trained in precepts...but,we did have a problem with some of the women training and teaching the men...our red flag went up then....long ago,Kay was real careful to only let the men teach the men on the videos,etc...but it has become much more liberal in that area lately. I see your concerns and agree with you.
We have sought out more biblcally sound teachers that do follow this principle and have realized there is some good study helps out there that do follow the scriptural example of men teaching and leading other men,couples,etc.
Molly
D
dianetavegia
Guest
Well said Molly!
Women can teach women but are not to be preachers, teachers of men or deacons. Scripture is quite clear on that.
I say those who are jealous are the women who are envious of the role God gave to MEN!
Diane Tavegia
ColoradoFB
New Member
This is so sad, especially coming from a woman. Replace "women" with "blacks" and "men" with "whites", and see how it sounds . . .
Doesn't sound too nice, does it? Yet it took the SBC until 1995 to apologize for just this very belief. Change comes slowly, but change comes.
That is ridiculous logic,Colorado...this has nothing to do with color of skin...it has to do with the roles laid out in scripture...the men are to be leaders in their home and in our churches...the older women are to teach the younger women...etc...Have you studied the roles of men and women in the Bible? It is clear that there are distinct separate roles to be played out by men,women,and children. We are to be obedient to God's Word as believers,that is how the world can see the difference in our lives.
Molly
Molly
ColoradoFB
New Member
Molly, it is perfect logic. Both race and gender are attributes we are born with. My opinion is that today the SBC has replaced blacks with women as objects of derision. This is wrong. By the way, the Bible was used in this very way to justify the slavery of blacks in this nation. Blacks were supposed to be obedient to their "roles laid out in scripture".Originally posted by Molly:
That is ridiculous logic,Colorado...this has nothing to do with color of skin...it has to do with the roles laid out in scripture...the men are to be leaders in their home and in our churches...the older women are to teach the younger women...etc...Have you studied the roles of men and women in the Bible? It is clear that there are distinct separate roles to be played out by men,women,and children. We are to be obedient to God's Word as believers,that is how the world can see the difference in our lives.
Molly
As for your question if I have studied, I would submit that I have probably studied the Bible for many more years than you have been alive, and can tell you, there is more than one interpretation of scripture, even among Baptists. Some say women should not work outside the home, others disagree. I think any woman who accepts your interpretation of Paul's writings is shortchanging herself and her gender (as well as all of humanity).
Just to be clear, there is nothing wrong with a woman being the keeper of the home, but there are other options, and women also need to be able to convey their knowledge to anyone else. I hate to see women shrouded in an intellectual "Christian burqa".
I also do not mean to offend anyone, particularly my SBC-affiliated friends. These are my opinions. Your mileage may vary.
[/qb][/QUOTE]Molly, it is perfect logic. Both race and gender are attributes we are born with. My opinion is that today the SBC has replaced blacks with women as objects of derision. ...
As for your question if I have studied, I would submit that I have probably studied the Bible for many more years than you have been alive, and can tell you, there is more than one interpretation of scripture, even among Baptists. Some say women should not work outside the home, others disagree. I think any woman who accepts your interpretation of Paul's writings is shortchanging herself and her gender (as well as all of humanity).
Just to be clear, there is nothing wrong with a woman being the keeper of the home, but there are other options, and women also need to be able to convey their knowledge to anyone else. I hate to see women shrouded in an intellectual "Christian burqa".
I also do not mean to offend anyone, particularly my SBC-affiliated friends. These are my opinions. Your mileage may vary. [/QB][/QUOTE]
1. The Black-women comparison demonstrates an ignorance of history. The position of SBC on women preaching(and most Baptists historically)has always been what it is, so the swapping women for blacks idea is wrong on its face.
2. If you've been studying the Bible longer than I'VE been alive, you are older than dirt...
As for your question if I have studied, I would submit that I have probably studied the Bible for many more years than you have been alive, and can tell you, there is more than one interpretation of scripture, even among Baptists. Some say women should not work outside the home, others disagree. I think any woman who accepts your interpretation of Paul's writings is shortchanging herself and her gender (as well as all of humanity).
Just to be clear, there is nothing wrong with a woman being the keeper of the home, but there are other options, and women also need to be able to convey their knowledge to anyone else. I hate to see women shrouded in an intellectual "Christian burqa".
I also do not mean to offend anyone, particularly my SBC-affiliated friends. These are my opinions. Your mileage may vary. [/QB][/QUOTE]
1. The Black-women comparison demonstrates an ignorance of history. The position of SBC on women preaching(and most Baptists historically)has always been what it is, so the swapping women for blacks idea is wrong on its face.
2. If you've been studying the Bible longer than I'VE been alive, you are older than dirt...
ColoradoFB
New Member
Point 1: The "historic" position of the justification of black slavery was the raisson d'etre for the SBC when it was formed, so it is dead on.Originally posted by Major B:
1. The Black-women comparison demonstrates an ignorance of history. The position of SBC on women preaching(and most Baptists historically)has always been what it is, so the swapping women for blacks idea is wrong on its face.
2. If you've been studying the Bible longer than I'VE been alive, you are older than dirt...
Point 2: I may not be older than dirt, but some days I sure feel like it!
D
dianetavegia
Guest
Colorado, if you've been studying the Bible longer than I've been alive then you're too old and probably have alzheimer's. (Pun Intended). I'm 52 and have been active in church since I was 2 weeks old and saved since age 8.
Your 'logic' is not scriptural and misleads the new Christian's among us. Your insinuation that all SBC's are or were racists is prejudiced.
Diane Tavegia
Your 'logic' is not scriptural and misleads the new Christian's among us. Your insinuation that all SBC's are or were racists is prejudiced.
Diane Tavegia
ColoradoFB
New Member
Diane, you make rash generalizations. Show me where I said ALL members of SBC churches are racists. I know better and so do you than to accuse me of something I never said.
The history remains that the SBC was formed in 1845 to justify their position on slavery. It also remains a fact that for a few years in the late 1960s, I lived in a small town in GA where the blacks were made to sit outside in a tent and listen on a speaker, rain or shine, while the white people went into the church building.
The leadership admitted it had a tainted history in 1995 by finally apologizing for using the Bible to support enslavement of blacks. Better late than never, but quite late indeed.
The SBCs hands are not clean in this matter. Doesn't mean they have not made progress, but this is diverting the topic.
One question tho...how is one "active" in church at 2 weeks old?
D
dianetavegia
Guest
Direct Quotes from you, ColoradoFB
You asked: One question tho...how is one "active" in church at 2 weeks old? My parents had me in church every service... EVERY SERVICE.... from 2 weeks old. We also didn't get put in the nursery so even as a tiny child I was always in good SBC's in Alabama and Georgia.
Diane
ColoradoFB
New Member
Again Diane..support your allegation. Where did I call ALL Southern Baptists racists?
ColoradoFB
New Member
Lets try again..
Diane, you made an allegation that I called all Southern Baptists racists. I did no such thing. The quotes you cited do not do that.
Again..show me where.
Diane, you made an allegation that I called all Southern Baptists racists. I did no such thing. The quotes you cited do not do that.
Again..show me where.
D
dianetavegia
Guest
First, I'm going to notify Dr. Bob to come and put this thread back on topic...
Women preachers....
and then to answer you... You called the SBC a racist organization which will include all SB members. I will not answer you again, Colorado.
Diane
Women preachers....
and then to answer you... You called the SBC a racist organization which will include all SB members. I will not answer you again, Colorado.
Diane
ColoradoFB
New Member
Diane, you failed to justify your attack on me that I called all SB MEMBERS racists.
I didn't even call it a racist organization...only cited historic fact about its beginnings. I have dear SBC friends & family who are NOT racists, so your assertion is poppycock!
I will agree...this thread has gotten way off topic!
Colorado, this analogy is patently false and misleading.
Black v white (playing the race card) might get folks attention off of the mess the SBC is in with this event, but it is NOT the theme of this thread and will not be allowed to continue here.
Why? Glad you asked?
Where does the NT teach or give examples that state WHITES can pastor but BLACKS cannot? There are none. So if a church or convention of churches make such rules, they do so without biblical support.
Where does the NT teach or give examples that state MEN can pastor but WOMEN cannot? We all can give many such references.
So let's keep this discussion "on topic".
(1) Should the SBC allow a woman to teach/usurp authority over a man?
(2) Is the Sunday Morning Worship a church function that forbids women preaching as well.
This is the scope of the topic. Thank you.
Black v white (playing the race card) might get folks attention off of the mess the SBC is in with this event, but it is NOT the theme of this thread and will not be allowed to continue here.
Why? Glad you asked?
Where does the NT teach or give examples that state WHITES can pastor but BLACKS cannot? There are none. So if a church or convention of churches make such rules, they do so without biblical support.
Where does the NT teach or give examples that state MEN can pastor but WOMEN cannot? We all can give many such references.
So let's keep this discussion "on topic".
(1) Should the SBC allow a woman to teach/usurp authority over a man?
(2) Is the Sunday Morning Worship a church function that forbids women preaching as well.
This is the scope of the topic. Thank you.
Back to topic....
Colorado,
Prejudice is wrong,scripturally...if anyone,SBC or whoever used scripture to back up prejudice,they were wrong. I'm not a member of a sbc church(I was in the past) and I do not hold to these principles because of what a *church* teaches...I hold to God's Word as the standard for everything pertaining to life and godliness. Women have wonderful roles laid out in scripture,it is beautiful to see what God's plan is for me and others. Noone is short changing women(or however you phrased it)...actually,I am glad to submit to my godly husband and have him lead our family....I'm thankful for the godly men who lead our church. I love our bible studies for women that women lead...I also appreciate the classes the men lead for couples or families.
I do not believe this because of anything the SBC does....I personally appreciate the sbc churches taking a strong stand on this. I respect that...but bottom line is scripture teaches it so I am clinging to what I know to be true,perfect,and God's plan for us.
And,if a women *feels* that preaching is God's will for her life....I would say,take those *feelings* to scripture and see if it lines up,if not....it can not be God's will.
Molly
Edited for numerous typos!!!
Colorado,
Prejudice is wrong,scripturally...if anyone,SBC or whoever used scripture to back up prejudice,they were wrong. I'm not a member of a sbc church(I was in the past) and I do not hold to these principles because of what a *church* teaches...I hold to God's Word as the standard for everything pertaining to life and godliness. Women have wonderful roles laid out in scripture,it is beautiful to see what God's plan is for me and others. Noone is short changing women(or however you phrased it)...actually,I am glad to submit to my godly husband and have him lead our family....I'm thankful for the godly men who lead our church. I love our bible studies for women that women lead...I also appreciate the classes the men lead for couples or families.
I do not believe this because of anything the SBC does....I personally appreciate the sbc churches taking a strong stand on this. I respect that...but bottom line is scripture teaches it so I am clinging to what I know to be true,perfect,and God's plan for us.
And,if a women *feels* that preaching is God's will for her life....I would say,take those *feelings* to scripture and see if it lines up,if not....it can not be God's will.
Molly
Edited for numerous typos!!!
ColoradoFB
New Member
Dr. Bob,
Three...count 'em....three times I tried to get this thread back on topic, but people ran with a comparison I made and went off on false accusations against me. I agree..people need to keep it on topic.
Now...
I understand the writings of Paul have been interpreted by many to forbid female pastors. I disagree with these interpretations, as do many other Baptists.
Women should not be relegated to second class, whether it is fundamentalist Islam and a burqa or fundamentalist Christianity telling a woman to keep silent in the church. Some people get so hung up on their pet views based on a single faceted understanding of the Bible that they lose sight of common sense.
In fact, lifelong SBC member and former POTUS Jimmy Carter left the SBC over its views on women "submitting" to their husbands. I am in good company...US President, Nobel Prize Winner, World Statesman.
Three...count 'em....three times I tried to get this thread back on topic, but people ran with a comparison I made and went off on false accusations against me. I agree..people need to keep it on topic.
Now...
I understand the writings of Paul have been interpreted by many to forbid female pastors. I disagree with these interpretations, as do many other Baptists.
Women should not be relegated to second class, whether it is fundamentalist Islam and a burqa or fundamentalist Christianity telling a woman to keep silent in the church. Some people get so hung up on their pet views based on a single faceted understanding of the Bible that they lose sight of common sense.
In fact, lifelong SBC member and former POTUS Jimmy Carter left the SBC over its views on women "submitting" to their husbands. I am in good company...US President, Nobel Prize Winner, World Statesman.