Another Appeal for a moment of frankness

[BobRyan]

All -

I know that we are each "supposed" to pretend that we see no problems/contradictions in our various views.

But I am wondering if there can't be a break from that standard policy all are following for a moment.

Since I am of the Arminian POV - I will ask questions of the Calvinists (oh how unnexpected?) and then of the Arminians (huh?)

Calvinist:

Three point Calvinists? How in the world do you do it? Looks like an Arminian, talks like an Arminian - IS an Arminian?

Surely the 4 and 5 point Calvinists here would join me in saying that it seems impossible to continue to hold to Calvinism if you don't accept the limited atonement idea. How else do you get "it is ALL of God"??

Five point Calvinists
This is THE MOST consistent position for Calvinists that want to make the point "IT IS ALL of God - we did nothing and we keep doing nothing, God does it all from conversion to perserverance". In fact - it makes perfect sense for God to MAKE the ones Perservere whom He MAKES to be saved.

But surely the 4 Point Calvinists would agree with me that a 5 point Calvinist "Can't really KNOW he is saved until he SEES himself perservere until the end" since he is so happy to retro-delete his assurance in that future year when he fails to perservere. So - weak on assurance.

4 Point Calvinists You guys have the BEST model for claiming "Assurance" and therefore getting the most out of "OSAS". And you get the "God does it ALL" but then He drops you at the altar - and lets you live as you please - and you STILL go to heaven! Fantastic!

Surely the 5 point Calvinists would agree with me - that the only problem with that view is that it is totally unnable to deal with the "perserverance" texts of the Bible.

Arminians Hi fellas! (and gals)

We have the best system of all - if support from the Bible is what you want - because it has the most texts supporting it. However - I am sure that every Calvinist on this board (except maybe the 4 point Calvinists) will agree with me - that you are in a very poor position when it comes to "OSAS" because you have to argue "Free Will" to come to Christ or NOT - but then once you are saved - you lose your free will. Basically that makes the lost "more free" than the saved.

You also have the problem that hell can't burn forever because "God so loved the World" and at some point (pick any number of years you want) the torment (In the Presence of the Lamb and of the Saints) Rev 14:10 gets "beyond love" and down to "vindictive" or something really "ugly".

The 4 and 5 point Calvinists win on this one - because they admit at the start "God never cared about those family members in hell to start with".

Thoughts?

Are you going to say - that nobody in any of these camps ever considered these things about the "other guys" or considered what everyone else has seen as "difficult" for "your camp"?

Or should we just not talk about the ones that pertain "to us"?

In Christ,

Bob

[ June 12, 2003, 09:38 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

[Yelsew]

Arminians Hi fellas! (and gals)

We have the best system of all - if support from the Bible is what you want - because it has the most texts supporting it. However - I am sure that every Calvinist on this board (except maybe the 4 point Calvinists) will agree with me - that you are in a very poor position when it comes to "OSAS" because you have to argue "Free Will" to come to Christ or NOT - but then once you are saved - you lose your free will. Basically that makes the lost "more free" than the saved.

Excuse me, but where does it say that the one who "learns" to have faith in God loses one's freewill? That simply is not true! Your premise is based on the "Total Depravity" theory, in which God altered his creation because his creation sinned, and that when He redeems one of his creation, He re-alters that one to be "redeemed". The Good news is that God did not alter his creation, and sin did not make the sinner totally depraved! One can only be totally depraved who totally rejects that there is a God and that there is no such thing as the Holy Spirit, and that there is no such thing has Salvation or even Sin. Look at the Barna stats, and you will see that 90+% of all people interviewed believe there is a God, and that God loves them. Thus less than 10% of all of those interviewed even qualify for Total Depravity.

Sin separated man from the purity in which he was created, thus separating created man from Holy God who is pure.

God created man to have free will regardless of the condition of man's faith. Learning to have faith in God does not put any shackles on man's will, but it does redirect man's desires. The free will remains free, but instead of heading south, the saved are now heading north, a dramatic change in direction while still having a completely free will. There is nothing to prevent an individual who has faith in God from changing direction and once again heading south. Hence the Prodigal, hence "one shall be taken the other left behind", hence "the sower" hence "the ten bridesmaids", etc. All of the parables illustrating the free will of man, and the desire of God to redeem man thus changing his direction.

Perseverance is nothing more than one sticking to ones FAITH condition, and one can persevere in Faith in God, of lack of faith in God.

The one who holds to truth is the one who is free indeed. So what or whom is Truth? You know the answer, Jesus told you.

You also have the problem that hell can't burn forever because "God so loved the World" and at some point (pick any number of years you want) the torment (In the Presence of the Lamb and of the Saints) Rev 14:10 gets "beyond love" and down to "vindictive" or something really "ugly".

Let's see now. When one is cast into the lake of fire as punishment for one's unbelief, scriptures say it is FOREVER! Here's How: There will be no retrieving of souls from the lake of fire, because the lake of fire is also going to "pass away" like this heaven and earth, Rev 21:1-8. Once that passing away occurs, it is FOREVER! God will never retrieve it or its contents. Therefore, punishment for unbelief is "forever". What's so difficult about that?

Yes, I read Rev 14 too, but then what do you do with Rev 21:1-8 where this present heaven and earth is no longer present. Does that not include the "lake of fire" into which ALL evil and unbelievers have been cast? Do you think that God would include a lake of fire in the New Heaven and New earth, especially since the Living God will be occupying the New Jerusalem on this new earth among His people who have been cleansed by the Blood of His only begotten Son? There will be no sorrow, no tears, no remembrance of lost loved ones. The lake of fire will be gone and all that it contained will be gone forever. There will be no continuance of "eternal punishment" even though it is eternal, because "it is finished" FOREVER before the new Heaven and Earth are established for eternity.

You can continue to believe the myths as you wish, but don't expect agreement with your wrong thinking.

 

[BobRyan]

quote:Bob
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Arminians Hi fellas! (and gals)

We have the best system of all - if support from the Bible is what you want - because it has the most texts supporting it. However - I am sure that every Calvinist on this board (except maybe the 4 point Calvinists) will agree with me - that you are in a very poor position when it comes to "OSAS" because you have to argue "Free Will" to come to Christ or NOT - but then once you are saved - you lose your free will. Basically that makes the lost "more free" than the saved.
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Yelsew
Excuse me, but where does it say that the one who "learns" to have faith in God loses one's freewill? That simply is not true! Your premise is based on the "Total Depravity" theory, in which God altered his creation because his creation sinned, and that when He redeems one of his creation, He re-alters that one to be "redeemed". The Good news is that God did not alter his creation, and sin did not make the sinner totally depraved!

Well Romans 8 and Romans 3 would argue that instead of "God altering man to be depraved" the fall of mankind created its own "sinful nature" without God "handing it to us". That sinful nature "does not seek after God" and as Paul states "in me dwelleth NO good thing".

However this does not address the point about "free will lost" after salvation. My point for the Arminian group is that "given free will" - that same free will should "allow" for bad choices AFTER salvation just as BEFORE - and that even sinless ADAM - made "bad choices". Which is a direct problem to those Arminians that hold to BOTH OSAS and Free Will.

Yelsew

God created man to have free will regardless of the condition of man's faith. Learning to have faith in God does not put any shackles on man's will, but it does redirect man's desires.

No doubt. But Adam's "desires" were "perfect" and sinless - and EVEN HE could choose 'error'.

Yelsew There is nothing to prevent an individual who has faith in God from changing direction and once again heading south.

Those Arminians who hold to BOTH free will and OSAS would have a problem with the point you are making. However - my view is that you are quite correct. WE CAN choose to fall back EVEN after being saved.

Yelsew -
Hence the Prodigal, hence "one shall be taken the other left behind", hence "the sower" hence "the ten bridesmaids", etc. All of the parables illustrating the free will of man, and the desire of God to redeem man thus changing his direction.

Again - these pose a problem for the Arminian that holds to free will AND to OSAS. Your examples include several cases of "not perservering" and losing what was gained.

You seem to have no problem with those examples --- so I agree with your position.

quote:Bob
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You also have the problem that hell can't burn forever because "God so loved the World" and at some point (pick any number of years you want) the torment (In the Presence of the Lamb and of the Saints) Rev 14:10 gets "beyond love" and down to "vindictive" or something really "ugly".
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Yelsew
Let's see now. When one is cast into the lake of fire as punishment for one's unbelief, scriptures say it is FOREVER! Here's How: There will be no retrieving of souls from the lake of fire, because the lake of fire is also going to "pass away" like this heaven and earth, Rev 21:1-8. Once that passing away occurs, it is FOREVER!

hmmm. I agree again.

Yelsew --
Yes, I read Rev 14 too, but then what do you do with Rev 21:1-8 where this present heaven and earth is no longer present. Does that not include the "lake of fire" into which ALL evil and unbelievers have been cast?

Hmm. I agree again.

That is the "solution" to the Arminian problem.

Yelsew

Do you think that God would include a lake of fire in the New Heaven and New earth, especially since the Living God will be occupying the New Jerusalem on this new earth among His people who have been cleansed by the Blood of His only begotten Son? There will be no sorrow, no tears, no remembrance of lost loved ones. The lake of fire will be gone and all that it contained will be gone forever. There will be no continuance of "eternal punishment" even though it is eternal, because "it is finished" FOREVER before the new Heaven and Earth are established for eternity.

True enough. But WHILE it was in operation - all was being done "IN the PRESENCE of the Lamb and of His Holy ones". It is a loving and caring God that is right there along with all His Holy Ones.

And so it is sustained "God so Loved the World" EVEN those in that torment for whatever period of time it exists.

So your brand of Arminianism is one that "solves the problem" that many Arminians have regarding OSAS and eternal-tormenting by a God that "so Loves the World".

In Christ,


Bob

 

[Yelsew]

Well, BobRyan, here's another bite or two to chew on.

Faith once gained, when retained to and through judgment, is OSAS.

Once Salvation is achieved, there is no longer a need for faith, because one has knowledge that Faith unto Salvation was true!

Therefore, Faith understood is faith to hold on to, for it is FAITH ALONE that saves!

 

[BobRyan]

The point of Perserverance in Calvinism is also held by the Arminian camp in a sense. Because if we perservere from the moment of Salvation to the end - we were saved the entire time. Both the Arminian and Calvinist groups agree on that one point.

However - in the Arminian view that does not insist on OSAS - you "could have been saved" for a time even BEFORE that final segment in your life of faithful perserverance. Saved and then "fallen away" for a time.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
The point of Perserverance in Calvinism is also held by the Arminian camp in a sense. Because if we perservere from the moment of Salvation to the end - we were saved the entire time. Both the Arminian and Calvinist groups agree on that one point.

However - in the Arminian view that does not insist on OSAS - you "could have been saved" for a time even BEFORE that final segment in your life of faithful perserverance. Saved and then "fallen away" for a time.

In Christ,

Bob

The Prodigal clearly illustrates the principle. However, the prodigal never lost faith in his father, he merely wanted to go out on his own. He did, He squandered what he had, and when destitute, returned to the father, but bringing with him nothing but wood, hay, and stubble indicating that his works were not good works.

 

[BobRyan]

The fruit was not "good fruit" in the Matt 7 sense while squandering his life away in rebellion.

But returning to the father - with nothing - was in fact a return to "good fruit".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Frogman]

Good post Brother Bob.

I would say in answer to your question or statement that God never loved some members of the Family.

Any who are yet lost are at least in experiential knowledge of their position in Christ not members of the family of God, yet concurrently they are known by God eternally as they were in Christ eternally.

When one considers the thought that God must not have loved the lost who are eternally and finally lost, is this implying that these 'lost' at some point held even a small regard of any kind of 'love' of God? If so, then perhaps God is a respecter of persons, because at some point a 'lost' individual did regard and love God, but to finally be declared lost eternally, God did not regard their love.

The truth is that this love is wrought of human means (perhaps emotionalism) and eternally there is not a true love of God wrought by the Holy Spirit, in short, there is no measure of regard nor love for God in those who are of the non-elect, they are more than happy to live their lives as is and realize no need for God.

This is something I have learned through a study of the atheist. In my understanding (which I admit openly and freely is not super abundant nor above any other), the atheist is not one who does not believe God exists as we often suspect or have been taught, but rather the atheist is simply one without God.

If this is true, this speaks alot about what we permit to be taught, often even under the guise of 'sovereign grace.'

For those eternally outside the family of God, there is no love lost. Can we understand and agree on this?

God Bless
Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

[tyndale1946]

Makes perfect sense to me!... All I can say is that one of the thieves on the cross crucified with Christ was given a raw deal ... He told one he was going to be in paradise that very day!... What an unjust God! ... What goes here he didn't give that other fella a fighting chance to be saved!... Why not?... One got to go to heaven and one did not!... Unfair!... I cry foul!... Could it be he was of the non-elect?... Why didn't he get the same opportunity?... Go figure?... I know!... I know!... Brother Glen

 

[BobRyan]

Notice in the Luke 23 story we don't have "Two thieves cursing Christ and then Christ turned to ONE of them and said

''ahh yes BUT you will be with me in Paradise!"

Instead we find that the THIEF first speaks to Christ pleading "to be remembered WHEN you come into Your kingdom".

The other thief - said nothing about that.

Then Christ "RESPONDS" just as predicted in Rev 3 - "I stand and Knock - IF any man hears AND OPENS the door - I will come in".

Perfect!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Brother Dallas --
For those eternally outside the family of God, there is no love lost. Can we understand and agree on this?

I believe that the 4 and 5 point Calvinists can - but not the 3 point and the Arminians (nor the Bible that claims God is caring about those who are lost).

However - IF it were true that Hell torments the lost forever - I ALSO agree that the 4 and 5 point Calvinist have this in their favor - that such an act is consistent with "God never caring at all for them". In fact that is the only view of God that would show such an act to be "consistent".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Frogman]

Would not the moment Christ was lifted upon on the Cross been the perfect time to have drawn this other man to him as well as the other? in fulfillment of John 12.32?

At the very least, this premise falls short, was this man not immediately facing the fires of hell? Where is the everlasting love this man is loved with, whereby this love failed to draw him?

While his 'saviour' was lifted up next to him, he shows no drawing to him whatever unto salvation; but died in his sins, so obviously the sins of the world (all men) were not imputed to Christ, but those of the elect only. Obviously, this man will only be drawn to Christ in the day of Judgement.

Simple.

Bro. Dallas Eaton

BTW, I don't believe anyone short of five points are 'calvinists.'

 

[tyndale1946]

Here is a thought to ponder... Aren't you glad that when we all get to heaven then we will know the whole truth finally and there will be no use for a Baptist Board... AMEN! ... Brother Glen

 

[BobRyan]

[/quote]Would not the moment Christ was lifted upon on the Cross been the perfect time to have drawn this other man to him as well as the other? in fulfillment of John 12.32?

At the very least, this premise falls short, was this man not immediately facing the fires of hell? Where is the everlasting love this man is loved with, whereby this love failed to draw him?
[/quote]

Sure it would have been!

And surely that is exactly what happened. But one chose to respond to that drawing, that enabling to "choose" and the other did not.

God was "so loving the World" that He was in the very act of Giving His Son. The drawing was happening - enabling depraved humanity to actually "choose" and in this case - one chose yes - and the other chose no.

What did not happen is:
Two men cursing God and Christ turns to one of them and says: "Yes but You will be with Me in Paradise"!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Frogman:
Would not the moment Christ was lifted upon on the Cross been the perfect time to have drawn this other man to him as well as the other? in fulfillment of John 12.32?

At the very least, this premise falls short, was this man not immediately facing the fires of hell? Where is the everlasting love this man is loved with, whereby this love failed to draw him?

While his 'saviour' was lifted up next to him, he shows no drawing to him whatever unto salvation; but died in his sins, so obviously the sins of the world (all men) were not imputed to Christ, but those of the elect only. Obviously, this man will only be drawn to Christ in the day of Judgement.

Simple.

Bro. Dallas Eaton

BTW, I don't believe anyone short of five points are 'calvinists.'

The other thief "was drawn" to Jesus when Jesus was lifted up. He however was a faithless person, not willing to place his soon to be spent faith in that other person who is also dying in the same manner. He therefore rejected the Universal love of God. He rejected the Universal Atonement for sins that was taking place next to him. He rejected the sacrifice of the Lamb of God even though he could see it taking place next to himself. He even badmouthed the one being crucified next to him where the other thief recognized his own worthless condition and spoke up on Jesus behalf to the other thief. This thief confessed that Jesus was innocent of the crime for which he was being crucified, he had an open mind to receive what the sacrificial Lamb of God was doing for him.

The one thief died after mocking Jesus and thereby showing the faith condition of his heart. The other died after confessing that Jesus was innocent of any crime, thus showing the condition of his heart. Thus the difference! Three men died the same kind of death, one completely innocent, one with a contrite heart, the other with malice and condemnation in his heart. Not a matter of election, but rather faith condition of the heart. Faith is a learned condition!

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
The other thief "was drawn" to Jesus when Jesus was lifted up.

Christ himself said that all who are drawn to him will come and will be raised up at the last day. So are we to believe that the gospels got the story wrong and this person really did come?? Or are we to believe that Christ was wrong and that all those who are drawn do not come?? Or should we just believe that you are wrong and that Christ and the Evangelists were right??? HMMMM ... let's think about that one for a minute ... Okay, time's up. I think we all know who to believe here.

 

[Yelsew]

The fact is the thief was in the presence of the Christ, but failed to believe that the Christ was innocent, believing instead that since Jesus did not take himself down from the Cross, that Jesus was not the messiah, as most all of Israel did not believe. That thief refused to even acknowledge that Jesus was innocent of any crime, or that Jesus crucifixion was the result of God's will. That thief was thus being crucified by His own will. That thief was caught up in his own situation, unable to believe. So, he rejected God's Universal Love and atonement while in the very presence of the Christ who could save him from eternal damnation. Believe it or not!

It seems that "being drawn" may mean something other than what you choose to believe. Being "drawn" is the objective of advertising. You can be "drawn" to see a movie, only to be totally disappointed by what the advertising promised. Or just the opposite, you can receive tremendous benefit after being drawn to something. Any benefit or disappointment of being drawn may well be the result of your condition at the time, and have nothing to do with how anyone else "receives" what they are drawn to.

Frankly, I don't care whether you believe me or not, if what I post causes you to consider the thought or ponder the meaning of something you already believe, then I am happy.

 

[BobRyan]

Pastor Larry
Christ himself said: that all who are drawn to him WILL COME

Actually - that is what 4 and 5 point Calvinists "believe" - but it is not a Bible text.

And in that gap - lies the entire difference between Calvinism and Arminianism.

But I understand the "need" to have it be a Bible text.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Dallas said --
While his 'saviour' was lifted up next to him, he shows no drawing to him whatever unto salvation

Another error in Calvinism is that all the lost must "SHOW they are drawn" but Christ said "The wind blows ...and you do not know where it comes from or where it goes - so is everyone who is born of the Spirit". There is no "detecto-meter" for "look someone is being drawn now lets see what happens".

The entire concept that you can watch the way God draws a person - is unfounded in scripture.

"The Spirit Convicts the World of Sin and Righteousness and Judgment" John 16.

The Spirit moves upon the heart - like the wind.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Dallas said --
While his 'saviour' was lifted up next to him, he shows no drawing to him whatever unto salvation

Another error in Calvinism is that all the lost must "SHOW they are drawn" but Christ said "The wind blows ...and you do not know where it comes from or where it goes - so is everyone who is born of the Spirit". There is no "detecto-meter" for "look someone is being drawn now lets see what happens".

The entire concept that you can watch the way God draws a person - is unfounded in scripture.

"The Spirit Convicts the World of Sin and Righteousness and Judgment" John 16.

The Spirit moves upon the heart - like the wind.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]The truth is that I agree with this Bro. Bob, but it is certain that we do not permit such persons as the 'evidently unrepented theif' would be as particular prospective members into the local NT church. (neither did John).

This fact aside, your post is correct, I have no authority to state that what I witness even in or during a profession of faith is a true work of the Spirit; this does not bother me, in fact, it is this reason that I rarely if ever "open" the altar to any who may "feel" drawn to Christ by the Holy Spirit. It is odd isn't it, that many who do not hear me do this immediately inform me of my failure to give men an opportunity to believe the Gospel message, to which I say No man has need of me to tell him, nor to lead him through a conviction that some half Soveriegn Grace song has most recently and calculatively manipulated his emotional heart strings. If The Spirit of God does not move them, let them remain unmoved; if He is pleased to quicken them at another time and place then Glory to God for the Praise of the Glory of His Grace.

I am not in a popularity contest in which I must make full proof of my ministry by the number of names that get enrolled onto my church roll; for what have I accomplished were I to find in the end that the 1/2 of these were never written by the Hand of God into the Lamb's Book of Life having eternally been bought by His Blood?

Some have told me that I will never "make" a preacher if I will not open the altar to give such an opportunity. Well, I am not "making" anything; it is God who has made me; is this an excuse that I seek to use to justify myself? You may say yes, but it is not, for my only justification is in Christ; as I said above, if He does not quicken, let them remain seated, motionless, if He does not impart life, my opening of the altar will not avail them any. Here is the failure of evangelization IMHO; Are we commissioned to go and to preach and to teach and to baptize? Yes, of course, can they not be saved if we do not go? Why not? Is it the Spirit that quickens them even through the preaching of the Cross, or is it the simple speaking of the word by man? I rather believe it is the Spirit working in the Word that is preached, it is the Spirit that has gone before us and not after us that operates as Scripture says "as the wind".

We are to but preach the Word, we do not, cannot and should not pretend we make the Word return unto God void, He has said it shall accomplish the purpose to which He has sent it, not the purpose for which we plan, intend, design, etc. etc. Too often we forget I think that we are not in such a position of authority that we cannot open the gate of this great green pasture of which His Flock feeds, it is God alone who Wills and Seeks the Lost; (who is as the sinner because he possesses the same nature), but who is said to be lost, not from the eternal view of God, but most certainly from the knowledge and understanding of men, except in the heart where the witness of the Spirit has beared a witness with 'our' spirits that we are the children of God.

Because I believe as I do, I can say that I do not disagree with your statement, whether it was meant for me to draw from it what I did I do not know.

Read Is. 63 and note who has tread the winepress of the wrath of God and what He has said of the people who would tread with Him.

God Bless
Bro. Dallas Eaton