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Another Appeal for a moment of frankness

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by BobRyan, Jun 6, 2003.

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  1. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Actually - that is what 4 and 5 point Calvinists "believe" - but it is not a Bible text.

    And in that gap - lies the entire difference between Calvinism and Arminianism.

    But I understand the "need" to have it be a Bible text.

    In Christ,

    Bob     </font>[/QUOTE]Are you not aware of John 6:44, words from Christ himself??

    John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

    It is clear to all who do not have a preconceived position to defend. Those who are drawn are raised up at the last day. You should at least argue points that aren't explicit in Scripture. This kind of post makes it way too easy. :(
     
    #21 Pastor Larry, Jun 13, 2003
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    No one CAN COME to Me UNless the Father Draws him. And I WILL raise him (the one who CAN come - the one who DOES come - who IS drawn by the Father).

    This very different from "I will make all that My Father draws COME to ME" as much as Calvinism "Would like" it to say that.

    Just so - the text does not say "Behold I stand at the door and knock AND IF I knock at any door then that door I WILL open and I WILL come in and make that person a believer". Tribulations 3:20

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #22 BobRyan, Jun 13, 2003
  3. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    Actually - that is what 4 and 5 point Calvinists "believe" - but it is not a Bible text.

    And in that gap - lies the entire difference between Calvinism and Arminianism.

    But I understand the "need" to have it be a Bible text.

    In Christ,

    Bob     </font>[/QUOTE]Are you not aware of John 6:44, words from Christ himself??

    John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

    It is clear to all who do not have a preconceived position to defend. Those who are drawn are raised up at the last day. You should at least argue points that aren't explicit in Scripture. This kind of post makes it way too easy. :(     </font>[/QUOTE]But, John 6:44 does not stand on its own merit, because verse 45 qualify's the reason that people are drawn to Jesus, and that word "everyone" is ONCE MORE, all inclusive!
     
    #23 Yelsew, Jun 13, 2003
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    quote: Bob Said --
    =============================================

    The entire concept that you can watch the way God draws a person - is unfounded in scripture.

    "The Spirit Convicts the World of Sin and Righteousness and Judgment" John 16.

    The Spirit moves upon the heart - like the wind.

    In Christ,

    Bob
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Well one might agree there - except to say that we would have envited him in for an evangelistic series - just not to be a deacon until he chose to believe in Christ. [​IMG]

    Just as we do not know what IS the silent drawing - so we usually do not know what is Not.

    True.

    But then that leaves you without "evangelism". You would then be an example of what I would call a "faithful Calvinist evangelist" whose altar call is something like --

    "Nothing I say today will change one thing about what God as predestined to do today. And nothing you decide will change it either. Rather than having a gospel sermon - we will sit in silence and just see if maybe today happens to be the day God causes one of you to come forward and be saved.

    Of course the "many" of Matt 7 - He does not even care about. But who knows - maybe there is one of the FEW of Matt 7 sitting out there tonight and also - maybe God is selecting tonight as the time of your calling.

    We wait in silence. And when God draws you - we will know - it was all of God - certainly not the Gospel sermon, or an "appeal" or a song or a testimony or witness that "motivated" anyone to come down....."

    Preache it !

    Oh no I wont! I will say you are being fully consistent with 4 and 5 point Calvinism and you are one of the few I have met who would admit to it.

    I applaud your consistency!

    Amen. In fact if He will not quicken them - let your sermon remain silent. Simply give them the testimony that nothing you say or they say makes any difference at all about which one of them God even cares about. Let it end right there.

    You mean - does the Holy Spirit use you to draw them? Or do you mean "certainly the Holy Spirit would NOT include me as His instrument in his efforts to draw others"?

    We might even be on the same page here.

    Hmm "the Word you say".

    "We BEG of you on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God" 2Cor 5:20

    "If SOMEHOW I MIGHT MOVE to JEALOUSY my fellow countrymen and SAVE some of them" Rom 11:14


    Indeed -- Who is "NOT Willing that ANY should perish" 2Peter 3.

    I agree with you in this - God is "the Great Evangelist" who Draws ALL mankind unto Him. Who is not willing for any to perish. HE is the "Lord of the Harvest" to whom we Pray that He will send His workmen into the fields that are ripe.

    It is only IN HIS service that our ministry has any meaning at all.


    He ALONE is the "Atoning Sacrifice" for OUR sins and not OUR sins only but for the SINS of the Whole World.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #24 BobRyan, Jun 13, 2003
  5. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    I do not question another individual's profession. As Scripture teaches that the Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirits that we are the children of God (Rom. 8.16), this is what I believe. We preach the Gospel The Holy Spirit makes it effective, nowhere does the will of man find hope to do so apart from the quickening of the Spirit.

    This is simply what I believe and because it hinges upon God and not my intelligence, nor my boldness, I can proclaim this truth where ever I am given an opportunity at any time. There is no time or place to open an altar when this truth is proclaimed because it pleases God to save men, for Christ came to seek and to save the lost.

    God Bless
    Bro. Dallas Eaton [​IMG]
     
    #25 Frogman, Jun 15, 2003
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