quote: Bob Said --
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The entire concept that you can watch the way God draws a person - is unfounded in scripture.
"The Spirit Convicts the World of Sin and Righteousness and Judgment" John 16.
The Spirit moves upon the heart - like the wind.
In Christ,
Bob
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Brother Dallas said --
The truth is that I agree with this Bro. Bob, but it is certain that we do not permit such persons as the 'evidently unrepented theif' would be as particular prospective members into the local NT church. (neither did John).
Well one might agree there - except to say that we would have envited him in for an evangelistic series - just not to be a deacon until he chose to believe in Christ.
Brother Dallas said --
This fact aside, your post is correct, I have no authority to state that what I witness even in or during a profession of faith is a true work of the Spirit; this does not bother me
Just as we do not know what IS the silent drawing - so we usually do not know what is Not.
Brother Dallas
, in fact, it is this reason that I rarely if ever "open" the altar to any who may "feel" drawn to Christ by the Holy Spirit. It is odd isn't it, that many who do not hear me do this immediately inform me of my failure to give men an opportunity to believe the Gospel message, to which I say No man has need of me to tell him, nor to lead him through a conviction that some half Soveriegn Grace song has most recently and calculatively manipulated his emotional heart strings. If The Spirit of God does not move them, let them remain unmoved;
True.
But then that leaves you without "evangelism". You would then be an example of what I would call a "faithful Calvinist evangelist" whose altar call is something like --
"Nothing I say today will change one thing about what God as predestined to do today. And nothing you decide will change it either. Rather than having a gospel sermon - we will sit in silence and just see if maybe today happens to be the day God causes one of you to come forward and be saved.
Of course the "many" of Matt 7 - He does not even care about. But who knows - maybe there is one of the FEW of Matt 7 sitting out there tonight and also - maybe God is selecting tonight as the time of your calling.
We wait in silence. And when God draws you - we will know - it was all of God - certainly not the Gospel sermon, or an "appeal" or a song or a testimony or witness that "motivated" anyone to come down....."
Brother Dallas
if He is pleased to quicken them at another time and place then Glory to God for the Praise of the Glory of His Grace.
I am not in a popularity contest in which I must make full proof of my ministry by the number of names that get enrolled onto my church roll; for what have I accomplished were I to find in the end that the 1/2 of these were never written by the Hand of God into the Lamb's Book of Life having eternally been bought by His Blood?
Preache it !
Brother Dallas
Some have told me that I will never "make" a preacher if I will not open the altar to give such an opportunity. Well, I am not "making" anything; it is God who has made me; is this an excuse that I seek to use to justify myself? You may say yes,
Oh no I wont! I will say you are being fully consistent with 4 and 5 point Calvinism and you are one of the few I have met who would admit to it.
I applaud your consistency!
Brother Dallas
but it is not, for my only justification is in Christ; as I said above, if He does not quicken, let them remain seated, motionless, if He does not impart life, my opening of the altar will not avail them any.
Amen. In fact if He will not quicken them - let your sermon remain silent. Simply give them the testimony that nothing you say or they say makes any difference at all about which one of them God even cares about. Let it end right there.
Brother Dallas -
Here is the failure of evangelization IMHO; Are we commissioned to go and to preach and to teach and to baptize? Yes, of course, can they not be saved if we do not go? Why not?
You mean - does the Holy Spirit use you to draw them? Or do you mean "certainly the Holy Spirit would NOT include me as His instrument in his efforts to draw others"?
Is it the Spirit that quickens them even through the preaching of the Cross, or is it the simple speaking of the word by man? I rather believe it is the Spirit working in the Word that is preached, it is the Spirit that has gone before us and not after us that operates as Scripture says "as the wind".
We are to but preach the Word,
We might even be on the same page here.
Hmm "the Word you say".
"We BEG of you on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God" 2Cor 5:20
"If SOMEHOW I MIGHT MOVE to JEALOUSY my fellow countrymen and SAVE some of them" Rom 11:14
Brother Dallas --it is God alone who Wills and Seeks the Lost;
Indeed -- Who is "NOT Willing that ANY should perish" 2Peter 3.
I agree with you in this - God is "the Great Evangelist" who Draws ALL mankind unto Him. Who is not willing for any to perish. HE is the "Lord of the Harvest" to whom we Pray that He will send His workmen into the fields that are ripe.
It is only IN HIS service that our ministry has any meaning at all.
Dallas said --
Read Is. 63 and note who has tread the winepress of the wrath of God and what He has said of the people who would tread with Him.
He ALONE is the "Atoning Sacrifice" for OUR sins and not OUR sins only but for the SINS of the Whole World.
In Christ,
Bob
