evangelist-7
New Member
I knew for sure I'd get a great laugh out of this!
You are saying the burning of works (above) = the burning of people (John 15:6).
Keep up the good work!
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Another approach at disproving OSAS
- Thread starter evangelist-7
- Start date
You are saying the burning of works (above) = the burning of people (John 15:6).
Keep up the good work!
.
Sorry, I did not fully explain myself. The text does not say God burned them either but "men" burned them. God is said to have cut them off but God is not said to burn them. Now you literalize the first and spiriutalize the second.
There is temporal judgment of our works by "men" and there is eternal judgment of our works by God in regard to rewards.
Men judge OUR PERSON by our works and reject our profession. God judges OUR WORKS produced by our person for rewards.
Again, the context is EXPERIENTAL "in Christ" or our daily walk.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
In 1Cor 3 - the works are the teaching of the builders - the teaching of the Apostle - the evangelist. Less than perfect doctrine is purged out - burned away in 1Cor 3 ---- no "person" is burned at all in 1Cor 3.
End of story. No way to bend or wrench 1Cor 3 into a person being burned and Biblicist seems to almost admit to this point in his statement on 1Cor 3.
By contrast - in John 15 we have another case of the death of OSAS - the PERSON is burned.
John 15:
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit;
for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;
and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire,
and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.
Another great Matt 18 example of the saved become fallen - forgiveness revoked.
in Christ,
Bob
evangelist-7
New Member
Yes, you're correct ... men burn useless branches ... God does not.
But, God does throw disobedient and unfruitful BACs into hell fire!
Why don't you explain to God that He should not have used parables, allegories, etc.
because it gives them too many opportunities to become confused and hence to argue against spiritual truth.
.
Look, there is no amount of Biblical evidence that can change your mind. That is why you must depend upon parables, allegories and scriptures that do not directly address whether true born again Christians may lose their salvation. Instead you depend upon scriptues that you must INFER the subjects are not mere professors but are born again.
That is why none of you that oppose OSAS can directly deal with John 6
Look, there is no amount of Biblical evidence that can change your mind. That is why you must depend upon parables, allegories and scriptures that do not directly address whether true born again Christians may lose their salvation. Instead you depend upon scriptues that you must INFER the subjects are not mere professors but are born again.
That is why none of you that oppose OSAS can directly deal with John 6:37-39 because this text directly demands that only true born again believers are the subjecct and this text directly addresses whether or not they can be eventually lost and its answers that "OF ALL" given by the Father "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING".
evangelist-7
New Member
So far, I can suppose that MAYBE we have a case of 2 types coming to Jesus:
-- those given by the Father
-- those coming by another way
Hopefully, I'll have an answer next week.
BTW, you and others here seem to be pinning all of your hopes on only one last resort ... John 6:39.
Happy 4th of July!
.
evangelist-7
New Member
Meanwhile, I believe 'tis true that no one has responded to ...
The word has been extremely cleverly written, almost to the point of deceivingly so!
It has been purposely written to somewhat hide how difficult it is to satisfy God.
Reason: too many people would be turned off and quit.
This also is nicely hidden ... Jesus warned, “First, count the cost of being My disciple.”
What does this have to do with OSAS?
Also, it makes no sense for God to create BACs out of garbage, and take them into heaven for eternity ...
... if they do NOT co-operate with Him in something or other,
like preparing themselves for this eternity with a totally holy God.
Logically, objectively, and subjectively, this means some will co-operate and some will not ... hence no OSAS.
.
Good, I will look forward to it.
No, that is not correct. There are many similar texts (Jn. 5:24; 10:26-30; etc.). The reason we zero in on this text is because it deals directly with the issue in an very unambigous way.
Same to you but don't have too much of a "blast."
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by The Biblicist
... none of you that oppose OSAS can directly deal with John 6:37-39 because this text directly demands that only true born again believers are the subjecct and this text directly addresses whether or not they can be eventually lost and its answers that "OF ALL" given by the Father "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING".
This has been answered dozens of times I think by now. It has been pointed out repeatedly that you twist "all squares are rectangles" into "all rectangles are squared" by sheer force of imagined insert into the text.
All Squares are rectangles. ALL those who come to Christ have been drawn. (A text that Does exist)
All rectangles are squares -- NONE of those who are drawn will fail to come to Christ. ( a text that does NOT exist)
And "obviously" - BOTH the Arminian AND the Calvinist view accept that some do come to Christ and remain - persevere firm unto the end.
The obvious "Missing text" is that "ALL DRAWN will persevere firm unto th end" -- we have no such all-rectangles-are-squares text - no matter how the Calvinist view needs to imagine it exists.
BOTH Arminian and Calvinist views accept that some do persevere firm unto the end and are saved - and God knows who they are in advance.
You cannot appeal to a tenet that BOTH views accept as if it is proof that only one of them is correct. It is yet another word-game of Calvinists and does not pass the test of logic much less invent the text that they so desperately need to make their case.
in Christ,
Bob
evangelist-7
New Member
Okay, I just did a Google search and quickly found the following website.
Very impressive .... I recommend that everyone read this article.
http://www.greatbiblestudy.com/once-saved_always-saved.php
.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Loss of OSAS
Matt 18 - Forgiveness revoked.
Ezek 18 - forgiveness revoked.
Romans 11 - Fear for if He did not spare them - neither will He spare you.
Gal 5:4 - Severed FROM Christ, fallen from Grace
Gal 5 (NASB)
. 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace (NKJV)
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (KJV)
Severed from Christ -- is lost.
John 15:
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit;
for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;
and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire,
and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.
Matt 18 - Forgiveness revoked.
Ezek 18 - forgiveness revoked.
Romans 11 - Fear for if He did not spare them - neither will He spare you.
Gal 5:4 - Severed FROM Christ, fallen from Grace
Gal 5 (NASB)
. 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace (NKJV)
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (KJV)
Severed from Christ -- is lost.
John 15:
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit;
for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;
and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire,
and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.
Again, you are posting references which say nothing about a true believer saying they no longer want to follow Jesus Christ, or no longer want to believe in Jesus Christ.
We have already established from Romans 11 that we stand ONLY by our faith. This then excludes the references above for they do not speak about a true believer saying they no longer believe. They speak to the law and to fruits.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
And Romans 11 says that "you should fear" for "you stand only by your faith - if He did not spare them - neither will he spare you".
Romans 11 makes it clear that you are only safe so long as you continue to persevere in that walk with Christ.
As for Gal 1 and Gal 5- I agree they fall - they lose their saved status when they switch from belief in the true Gospel - to faith in a false Gospel.
Gal 5 (NASB)
. 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace (NKJV)
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (KJV)
Severed from Christ -- is lost. (As we just saw in John 15)
in Christ,
Bob
NONE of the cut off jews EVER professed faith in jesus as messiah, so your use of that passage very bogus!
If you stand ONLY by your faith, as the scripture states, then what is the ONLY thing that would cause God to cut you off?
What keeps a saint saved? based pon our good works/deeds/keeping the law of God fully?
If so. need to attain a state of sinless perfection here in order to assure will keep salvation!
need to see the basis as the Will of God, anchored in the cross, sealed by the Spirit!
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
And Romans 11 says that "you should fear" for "you stand only by your faith - if He did not spare them - neither will he spare you". Oh good - we can read the book for "details" - I love it.
Rom 11:22
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
if you continue in His kindness[FONT="]; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Romans 6
[/FONT]
14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you
became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
1 John 2
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
Matt 18
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
Wrong! the same temporal consequences the unforgiving steward exacted of his servant is applied to him and he cannot throw his servant into hell.
Wrong! This is a context of Judicial action within the legal courts of Israel.
Wrong! This refers only to NATIONAL privileges taken from Israel and given to the Gentiles.
Wrong! This is about fallen from the DOCTRINE/UNDERSTANDING of "THE TRUTH" of the gospel of grace due to false teaching and false teachers (Gal. 1:8; 3:1)
Wrong! This is talking about fruit production by abiding in Christ experientially through walking in the Spirit. Ultimate salvation is not being considered (v. 3) but already taken for granted concernng them.
The metaphor "burned with fire" is spelled out literally "without me ye can do NOTHING." The positive is not salvation, entering heaven, maintaining justification or anything like that, but rather only fulness of joy, answered prayers, closer fellowship, etc.