Another Calvinistic Error

[Rippon]

What decides who is atoned for isn't some arbitrary choice by God, it is all those who choose to believe in Jesus Christ after the Gospel is preached.

Why do some non-Cals keep saying suuch foolish things? Name one Calvinist on the BB or in Church history who has ever said that God does anything in a willy-nilly fashion. You can't. Give up that line of reasoning.

BTW, since Calvinist don't know on what basis God decides who to accept,

It is by His good pleasure. That has been said hundreds of times here.

 

[Rippon]

1. This place God in an active role in the reprobation of man. We would have God purposely withholding the 'full' truth from them so they do not repent and come to the knowledge of truth.

You think that the Bible doesn't teach that the Lord deliberately prevents saving truths to be received by some?

2.This can not be because scripture specifically states that God desires all men to repent 'and come to the knowledge of truth'.

All kinds of people -- not every single person -- head for head throughout history.

He our propitiation but not ours only but the propitiation of 'whole' world.

Not only for those among the Hebrews -- but among the Gentiles scattered throughout the world also.

Jesus stated that He will draw all men unto Himself

No Jesus didn't state that -- only certain English Bible versions. He came to draw all of His own to Himself -- i.e. His elect.

God so loved the world that ... whoever believed... would have eternal life

All the believing ones -- and of course He causes them to believe.

 

[Rippon]

Salvation is possible for anyone...

Salvation is never merely possible. It is either bestowed or it is not given.

Yes, He die to provide real atonement for all those pre-known, as well as for the whole world. (2 Thes 2:10-12)

You are using a very elastic meaning to the word provide. Christ atones only for those He has foreknown -- no others.

 

[Robert Snow]

Thank you for your replies. I appreciate your participation. As one of you said, no one has convinced me that Calvinism is correct, which will probably never happen. I would have to forsake what I consider sound doctrine and accept a belief system I think is wrong on many levels.

The funny thing is that I am sure I worship with many in my church who are Calvinists, yet it never gets in the way of fellowship or enjoying the things of God.

It's like dispensationalism, although most in my church hold to these beliefs, the fact that I now question them is not a problem. For some reason, here on the Internet, things often get carried away. Perhaps it is because no matter how much we post and discuss things, we always remain mainly strangers with each other.

 

[annsni]

John 10 speaks to this:

"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep. I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd."

Here Jesus says that He is laying down His life for his the sheep. Not the goats or the wolves but the sheep.

 

[zrs6v4]

John 10 speaks to this:

"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep. I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd."

Here Jesus says that He is laying down His life for his the sheep. Not the goats or the wolves but the sheep.

This is a very good passage for the argument and one of the most clear.:thumbs:

 

[Skandelon]

John 10 speaks to this:

"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep. I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd."

Again, context is very important in understanding the intent. Jesus is speaking to Jews about the the remnant of Israel who are not being hardened and thus are his "sheep," and the other sheep not of this fold, the Gentiles, who will listen. Again, this alludes to the fact that Israel is being judicially hardened except for the remnant who he has reserved for himself so that they might take the message to the world. It's not meant to be a sociological dissertation on Calvinistic dogma as it is so often misapplied.

 

[annsni]

Again, context is very important in understanding the intent. Jesus is speaking to Jews about the the remnant of Israel who are not being hardened and thus are his "sheep," and the other sheep not of this fold, the Gentiles, who will listen. Again, this alludes to the fact that Israel is being judicially hardened except for the remnant who he has reserved for himself so that they might take the message to the world. It's not meant to be a sociological dissertation on Calvinistic dogma as it is so often misapplied.

However, we know that there are sheep that Christ died for. He speaks of those outside the fold who will be brought into the fold. How does this NOT show that Christ died for the sheep?

 

[Skandelon]

However, we know that there are sheep that Christ died for. He speaks of those outside the fold who will be brought into the fold. How does this NOT show that Christ died for the sheep?

Christ died for all who enter his fold by faith (his sheep). Go back in this thread and read my comments on the subject of Limited Atonement and you will see where I'm coming from. The atonement, in my view, is limited. Its just not limited by God, its limited by men's unbelief.

The Jewish audience Jesus is address in John 10 is being temporarily hardened in their rebellion so that God can accomplish a great good for all. They cannot believe because God has sent them a "spirit of stupor" (romans 11), not because they were born totally unable and are not chosen by God as Calvinism teaches.

 

[annsni]

Christ died for all who enter his fold by faith (his sheep). Go back in this thread and read my comments on the subject of Limited Atonement and you will see where I'm coming from. The atonement, in my view, is limited. Its just not limited by God, its limited by men's unbelief.

The Jewish audience Jesus is address in John 10 is being temporarily hardened in their rebellion so that God can accomplish a great good for all. They cannot believe because God has sent them a "spirit of stupor" (romans 11), not because they were born totally unable and are not chosen by God as Calvinism teaches.

However, Jesus said that He has other sheep and He must go get the sheep to bring them into the fold. They sheep didn't come to the gate and knock, did they?

 

[TomVols]

I think I understand what Calvinism teaches concerning "limited atonement." Of course, there is so much debate in the fog of Calvinistic definitions that it is sometimes difficult to nail down what they believe.

My interaction with Calvinists have shown me that they believe that Christ's atoning blood is only effective for the elect. I say that Jesus Christ died for every person who has or who will ever live. The forgiveness if there, it only has to be accepted.

You just limited the atonement....you Calvinist :laugh:

 

[canadyjd]

Again, context is very important in understanding the intent. Jesus is speaking to Jews about the the remnant of Israel who are not being hardened and thus are his "sheep," and the other sheep not of this fold, the Gentiles, who will listen.

There is no "remnant" language in these passages. You are seeing something that is not there.

However, "Belief" and "unbelief" are major themes in John.

Jesus is clearly saying that He came from heaven for specific people that have been chosen by the Father, made up of both Jews and Gentiles.

These people are His sheep. Jesus knows them by name. The sheep know Jesus/recognize His voice. These sheep will follow Jesus without fail when He calls their names. Jesus will lose none of them. Jesus lays down His life for these sheep. Jesus will raise these sheep up on the last day.

Others do not believe because they are not His sheep. They cannot come because they are not drawn by the Father to believe.

The language is very simple if you don't let idealogical convictions cloud your judgment.

It's not meant to be a sociological dissertation on Calvinistic dogma as it is so often misapplied.

You are completely ignoring the context of these verses and attempting to impose your anti-Calvinistic beliefs on them.

peace to youraying:

 

[Skandelon]

However, Jesus said that He has other sheep and He must go get the sheep to bring them into the fold. They sheep didn't come to the gate and knock, did they?

Correct. The Gentiles didn't come looking for God, but God sent the apostles after them. He came to seek and save that which was lost. God is pursuing us and he is doing so through his appointed means: the church, believers indwelled by the Holy Spirit, preaching the gospel and making disciples.

 

[Winman]

There is no "remnant" language in these passages. You are seeing something that is not there.

However, "Belief" and "unbelief" are major themes in John.

Jesus is clearly saying that He came from heaven for specific people that have been chosen by the Father, made up of both Jews and Gentiles.

These people are His sheep. Jesus knows them by name. The sheep know Jesus/recognize His voice. These sheep will follow Jesus without fail when He calls their names. Jesus will lose none of them. Jesus lays down His life for these sheep. Jesus will raise these sheep up on the last day.

Others do not believe because they are not His sheep. They cannot come because they are not drawn by the Father to believe.

The language is very simple if you don't let idealogical convictions cloud your judgment. You are completely ignoring the context of these verses and attempting to impose your anti-Calvinistic beliefs on them.

peace to youraying:

You are in error. A person is not known of God until they believe on Christ.

Eph 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Notice this verse starts with the words, "But now". Then it says, "after ye have known God", which shows these persons have been saved. And then it says, "or rather are known of God". God does not know you until you first hear God's word and believe on Christ. And that is what this verse is showing. The words "but now" show a person was not known of God beforehand if you will accept it.

Calvinism believes everything in exact reverse of what the scriptures teach. Calvinism teaches that God knows a man, and those he knows he determines will believe. The scriptures teach that God does not know you until you believe.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

What does this verse say first, that Jesus's sheep hear his voice, or that he knows them? It first mentions that they hear Jesus. And this is why he knows them.

Scripture shows

Sheep hear voice -----> Known of Jesus

Calvinism says

Known of Jesus -----> Sheep hear voice

I don't expect you will listen to any of this, but the scriptures show a man must first have faith and trust in Christ before Jesus knows the man.

 

[annsni]

Correct. The Gentiles didn't come looking for God, but God sent the apostles after them. He came to seek and save that which was lost. God is pursuing us and he is doing so through his appointed means: the church, believers indwelled by the Holy Spirit, preaching the gospel and making disciples.

However Jesus said "And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice."

Is Jesus just going out calling whatever sheep will respond to Him or does He have specific sheep that WILL listen to Him that He WILL bring into the fold?

 

[Skandelon]

However Jesus said "And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice."

Is Jesus just going out calling whatever sheep will respond to Him or does He have specific sheep that WILL listen to Him that He WILL bring into the fold?

A similar passage is one I presented earlier: Acts 28:24 Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe. 25 They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: "The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your forefathers when he said through Isaiah the prophet: 26 " 'Go to this people and say, "You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving." 27 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' 28 "Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!"

This passage, which is quoted from the OT several times in the NT, explains that the Jews hearts had GROWN calloused. THEY WEREN'T BORN CALLOUSED. It also clearly explains their ability had they not become hard. "OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT SEE." He even goes on to contrast the Gentiles who "WILL LISTEN."

The reason the Jews, Jesus' audience in John 10, weren't believing was because they were being hardened, but the Gentiles will listen. Does that mean every Gentile will believe? Of course not, but the point is that one nation is being hardened while the other is being grafted in, or brought into the fold. Its only when you read this from a individualistic soteriological perspective that you walk away with the more Calvinistic interpretation.

 

[Winman]

However Jesus said "And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice."

Is Jesus just going out calling whatever sheep will respond to Him or does He have specific sheep that WILL listen to Him that He WILL bring into the fold?

Well, this is a little complicated, because God's foreknowledge comes in here. God in time does not know you until you believe. But outside of time in God's foreknowledge he knows in advance who will listen.

Jesus knew from the beginning who would believe and who would believe not.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

What does Jesus mention first here? He mentions his words. But then he says there are some of you that believe not, and then it says Jesus knew from the beginning who they were (he knows individuals) that believed not and who would betray him.

When Jesus picked the tweleve disciples, he knew from the beginning that eleven would hear and believe his words, and that one would not.

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Now this is Jesus showing foreknowledge. He knows who will listen and believe him, and he knows who will not beforehand.

That is God outside time, that is foreknowledge. God outside time knows everything that will happen in the future. This is why God can tell us future events and give us prophesy.

But at other times the scriptures show God inside of time. God does not know you in a very close personal relationship until you trust on Christ.

1 Cor 8:3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

When you read this verse, it shows that to be known of God is conditional. You must love God to be known of him. This is speaking of a saved person, one who has trusted Christ.

When Jesus spoke of the Gentiles, he was saying he has other sheep. And he identifies who they are, they are those who will listen to and believe his words.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

So, this is very difficult to explain. Outside of time in God's foreknowledge he knows in advance who will hear his voice. But inside of time he only knows a person once they hear his voice.

We see this in the story of Nathaniel in John 1. Philip had met Jesus and believed him to be the Messiah. He went and found Nathaniel. Nathaniel had faith, he believed and was looking for the savior. When he came to Jesus, Jesus knew him which surprised Nathaniel greatly. But Jesus said he saw Nathaniel even before his brother Philip came after him.

John 1:43 The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me.
44 Now Philip was of Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter.
45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
46 And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see.
47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!
48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

You see verse 48? Jesus said even before Philip came to Nathaniel that Jesus saw him. This is God's foreknowledge. Jesus knew Nathaniel would believe. And he did.

 

[annsni]

A similar passage is one I presented earlier: Acts 28:24 Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe. 25 They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: "The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your forefathers when he said through Isaiah the prophet: 26 " 'Go to this people and say, "You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving." 27 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' 28 "Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!"

This passage, which is quoted from the OT several times in the NT, explains that the Jews hearts had GROWN calloused. THEY WEREN'T BORN CALLOUSED. It also clearly explains their ability had they not become hard. "OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT SEE." He even goes on to contrast the Gentiles who "WILL LISTEN."

The reason the Jews, Jesus' audience in John 10, weren't believing was because they were being hardened, but the Gentiles will listen. Does that mean every Gentile will believe? Of course not, but the point is that one nation is being hardened while the other is being grafted in, or brought into the fold. Its only when you read this from a individualistic soteriological perspective that you walk away with the more Calvinistic interpretation.

Does that also mean that every Jew didn't believe? No. Not at all. But Jesus clearly says that He died for His sheep. That is limited atonement.

Both camps limit the atonement unless one believes in universal atonement which is outside of the Calvinist/Arminian argument. It's just a difference of WHO limits it.

 

[Skandelon]

There is no "remnant" language in these passages. You are seeing something that is not there.

See my reply to Ann and maybe you will better see my perspective. And actually now that I think about it, in the book of John in just a couple chapter after this one we are discussing it says this:

37 Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. 38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet: "Lord, who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" 39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: 40 "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."

So, why couldn't they believe? Was it because they were born totally depraved, or was it because God was judicially hardening the Jews so as to accomplish a greater purpose through their rebellion?

 

[Skandelon]

Does that also mean that every Jew didn't believe? No. Not at all.

I agree. Only those that God had entrusted to Christ were his disciples during this time. These are the remnant of Israel...the "firstfruits." Those of Israel chosen to take the message of hope to the world. These are the "vessels chosen for noble purposes" spoken of in Romans 9, where as all the other Jews being hardened were those "of common use." Is that just of God to chose some Israelites, like Paul, to be used for such noble purposes while hardening the other Jews in their rebellion? Yes, that is Paul's point in Romans 9. However, those Jews being hardened still have a hope of being saved because some might be provoked to envy and come to faith (Romans 11:14) because the hardening is temporary.

Both camps limit the atonement unless one believes in universal atonement which is outside of the Calvinist/Arminian argument. It's just a difference of WHO limits it.

Exactly, I've heard that somewhere before... Oh yeah I said that a few pages back.