Another Catholic question (sorry guys!)

[annsni]

Last night I couldn't sleep and was working my way up the channels to get to HGTV (it was too dark to type in the channel numbers so I surfed up) when I came across the Catholic channel and it was just beginning a mass at a cathedral that a friend of mine is a cantor so I waited to see if she was on this one and sure enough she was. So DH and I spent the next 45 minutes watching a mass. Now hubby hasn't been to many masses at all (I think only the ordination this friend/cantor's husband as a deacon), but I've been to many having been adopted into an Irish Catholic family and going to Catholic school from 7th through 12th grades. As it went along, he asked me a question that I was just not sure how to answer so I'll ask you all.

At the beginning of the Eucharist, the priest spoke of us bringing our gifts and sacrifice to God and asking God to accept our sacrifice. It was when he was going to consecrate the Eucharist, if I remember correctly.

So what is the "gifts" and "sacrifice" that we bring at communion? I wish I had a video of what I'm talking about but maybe if it's typical wording for the Eucharist, you'll know what I'm talking about.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Do you mean this?

Priest: Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this bread to offer, which earth has given and human hands have made. It will become for us the bread of life.
All: Blessed be God for ever.

Priest: Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this wine to offer, fruit of the vine and work of human hands. It will become our spiritual drink.
All: Blessed be God for ever.

[If there is no singing during the presentation of the gifts, the priest may say the preceding prayers aloud, and the people may respond. But if a presentation song is being sung, the priest recites these prayers inaudibly, and the people's response is omitted. Then, after the priest has washed his hands and the music is finished, he invites the people to join in prayer:]

[stand]

Priest: Pray, my brothers and sisters, that our sacrifice
may be acceptable to God, the almighty Father.
All: May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands,
for the praise and glory of his name,
for our good, and the good of all his Church.

Prayer over the Gifts:

[The priest sings or says this prayer, which is different for each Mass. At the end, the people respond:]
All: Amen.

 

[annsni]

That looks like it! Hubby caught "gifts" said but I didn't - I just remember hearing about "sacrifice".

So it's offering God a sacrifice of bread and wine each time mass is done?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

That looks like it! Hubby caught "gifts" said but I didn't - I just remember hearing about "sacrifice".

So it's offering God a sacrifice of bread and wine each time mass is done?

I'm not really sure but what I think it is, is that people offer the bread and the wine for the consecration which is their gifts to God and God's responce is to consecrate the Eucharist.

 

[annsni]

I'm not really sure but what I think it is, is that people offer the bread and the wine for the consecration which is their gifts to God and God's responce is to consecrate the Eucharist.

But the thing is that the church itself offers the bread and wine - the congregation has nothing to do with it. Now, if they brought their own from home, I could see that but they don't even touch it. *shrugging shoulders*

 

[Zenas]

As I understand it, the "gifts" are the unconsecrated bread and wine. The priest says a prayer of thanks for these gifts before holding them up for consecration. Once they are consecrated and transubstantiation is complete, they become a sacrifice. The sacrifice occurs when the hosts are consumed by the worshipers.

I am also a little fuzzy about why they are called gifts and why thanks to God is offered for them. But your husband heard it right. There is a prayer offered in thanks for the gifts. It is explained a little better here: http://www.ourcatholicfaith.org/mass/eucharist.html

I just finished a book called Understanding Four Views of the Lord's Supper. Its principal author is Russell Moore who is at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. The four views presented are Baptist, Reformed, Lutheran and Catholic. Each section is written by a prominent authority in that denomination. Also each of the four sections has a short rebuttal by the other three. It's a good read, takes about three or four hours, and is quite enlightening. However, it won't answer the question of why the unconsecrated bread and wine are called gifts. You can get it at Barnes & Noble, Lifeway and probably other places as well.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

So what is the "gifts"...

the "gifts" brought forth are the elements of bread and wine...in the Roman Catholic Church, the RCC itself produces the wafers and wine...wine is optional to partake during communion...

in the Orthodox Church, families take turns making the bread we use and the wine we use is imported from Lebanon...once the elements are consecrated they (bread that has been broken up and wine) are mixed together in a cup with warm water and we partake of both wine and bread together from a spoon...

In XC
-

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

Last night I couldn't sleep and was working my way up the channels to get to HGTV (it was too dark to type in the channel numbers so I surfed up) when I came across the Catholic channel and it was just beginning a mass at a cathedral that a friend of mine is a cantor so I waited to see if she was on this one and sure enough she was. So DH and I spent the next 45 minutes watching a mass. Now hubby hasn't been to many masses at all (I think only the ordination this friend/cantor's husband as a deacon), but I've been to many having been adopted into an Irish Catholic family and going to Catholic school from 7th through 12th grades. As it went along, he asked me a question that I was just not sure how to answer so I'll ask you all.

At the beginning of the Eucharist, the priest spoke of us bringing our gifts and sacrifice to God and asking God to accept our sacrifice. It was when he was going to consecrate the Eucharist, if I remember correctly.

So what is the "gifts" and "sacrifice" that we bring at communion? I wish I had a video of what I'm talking about but maybe if it's typical wording for the Eucharist, you'll know what I'm talking about.

Please tell me that you didn't proclaim to the board that you spent 45 minutes watching mass!! Pretty soon you'll have some asking if you are "real" Christian :tonofbricks:

 

[Zenas]

Please tell me that you didn't proclaim to the board that you spent 45 minutes watching mass!! Pretty soon you'll have some asking if you are "real" Christian :tonofbricks:

FoS, Ann went to great lengths to show us she stumbled on this by accident while channel surfing so she should be OK. :laugh:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

But the thing is that the church itself offers the bread and wine - the congregation has nothing to do with it. Now, if they brought their own from home, I could see that but they don't even touch it. *shrugging shoulders*

Yeah, thats true but I think the liturgy is an old thing and some of the statements go back to the time when the community offered the bread and wine.

 

[annsni]

Please tell me that you didn't proclaim to the board that you spent 45 minutes watching mass!! Pretty soon you'll have some asking if you are "real" Christian :tonofbricks:

Well, my friend has a beautiful voice and I haven't heard her sing in years (possibly since high school and we're 27 years out of that now!). Additionally, honestly it was a bit of an education for both DH and I since we'll be planting a new church by the fall and a large portion of those who we hope to reach will be Roman Catholic by culture.

FoS, Ann went to great lengths to show us she stumbled on this by accident while channel surfing so she should be OK. :laugh:

I already made sure I did penence for this. I read Numbers twice.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

I already made sure I did penence for this. I read Numbers twice.

Now, if you really meant business you'd read through LEVITICUS twice...followed by three 'decades' of 1 Chronicles 1-9 outloud. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Matt Black]

No, no! Only Leviticus is a sufficient penance for this, plus four 'Our Fathers', three 'Hail Marys' and two 'Hello Dollys'.

Catholic theology states the following in answer to your question: the gifts being brought are the bread and wine which, once consecrated, are offered by the priest and people as a bloodless sacrifice of the Body and Blood of Christ, re-presenting the bloody sacrifice of His Body and Blood made once for all upon the cross. By eating and drinking His Body and Blood by taking the communion elements thus consecrated and sacrificed, Catholics receive the benefits of that sacrifice as a means of real sanctifying grace.

[CP with DT!]

 

[annsni]

No, no! Only Leviticus is a sufficient penance for this, plus four 'Our Fathers', three 'Hail Marys' and two 'Hello Dollys'.

Catholic theology states the following in answer to your question: the gifts being brought are the bread and wine which, once consecrated, are offered by the priest and people as a bloodless sacrifice of the Body and Blood of Christ, re-presenting the bloody sacrifice of His Body and Blood made once for all upon the cross. By eating and drinking His Body and Blood by taking the communion elements thus consecrated and sacrificed, Catholics receive the benefits of that sacrifice as a means of real sanctifying grace.

[CP with DT!]

Yeah, I knew about the sacrificing the body and blood each time a mass is done (and it skeeves me out and is completely antithetical to Scripture where Christ's sacrifice was once for all but that's another matter). I just didn't get OUR sacrifice. It's not much of a sacrifice on our part honestly.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

No, no! Only Leviticus is a sufficient penance for this, plus four 'Our Fathers', three 'Hail Marys' and two 'Hello Dollys'.

Catholic theology states the following in answer to your question: the gifts being brought are the bread and wine which, once consecrated, are offered by the priest and people as a bloodless sacrifice of the Body and Blood of Christ, re-presenting the bloody sacrifice of His Body and Blood made once for all upon the cross. By eating and drinking His Body and Blood by taking the communion elements thus consecrated and sacrificed, Catholics receive the benefits of that sacrifice as a means of real sanctifying grace.

[CP with DT!]

Hello Dollys are penance only for those in danger of failing to make purgatory.

 

[Matt Black]

Yeah, I knew about the sacrificing the body and blood each time a mass is done (and it skeeves me out and is completely antithetical to Scripture where Christ's sacrifice was once for all but that's another matter). I just didn't get OUR sacrifice. It's not much of a sacrifice on our part honestly.

Well, I never understood when the sacrifice occurred; I remember asking the priest that one and was told that the whole Mass was the sacrifice and being vaguely disappointed (what, no knives or mess or anything?). To answer your question though, it's our sacrifice because both priest and people participate in it; in the English and Welsh Missal the priest says, "pray, brethren that my sacrifice and yours may be acceptable to God the Almighty Father".

 

[annsni]

Well, I never understood when the sacrifice occurred; I remember asking the priest that one and was told that the whole Mass was the sacrifice and being vaguely disappointed (what, no knives or mess or anything?). To answer your question though, it's our sacrifice because both priest and people participate in it; in the English and Welsh Missal the priest says, "pray, brethren that my sacrifice and yours may be acceptable to God the Almighty Father".

See, how is it a sacrifice of mine if I don't do anything towards it?

 

[Matt Black]

As I understand it, the sacrifice is Jesus', on the Cross, to the Father, for the propitiation of our sins, in which priest and people participate by re-presenting that original, once-for-all sacrifice, through the Mass. Therefore, His sacrifice becomes also our sacrifice.

 

[annsni]

As I understand it, the sacrifice is Jesus', on the Cross, to the Father, for the propitiation of our sins, in which priest and people participate by re-presenting that original, once-for-all sacrifice, through the Mass. Therefore, His sacrifice becomes also our sacrifice.

That's the sort of thing I just don't get. In light of Scripture, how can it be my sacrifice? (Know that I'm not arguing with you Matt, but the ideas that are there and I know you're helping me out with your understanding of stuff). It's just so....off to me. You know?

 

[lori4dogs]

That's the sort of thing I just don't get. In light of Scripture, how can it be my sacrifice? (Know that I'm not arguing with you Matt, but the ideas that are there and I know you're helping me out with your understanding of stuff). It's just so....off to me. You know?

Matt is Anglican. Depending on his churchmanship (and from his postings I assume he is an evangelical) would have somewhat of a different position on this. We are told to present ourselves as living sacrifices to God, holy and acceptable which is our spiritual act of worship. God provided the rest. We may grow the wheat and grapes from which our 'gifts' of bread and wine are presented (God provided the means) we also present ourselves, souls, bodies as living sacrifices as an act of worship.

Again this is NOT a re-sacrifice of Christ. The sacrifice He made on Calvary is timeless. The blood He shed was sufficient to cover the sins of the saint of God before his incarnation and it is sufficient for eternity. This a re-presentation (bloodless) sacrifice.

Dr. Brant Pitre has written excellent commentary on why the early Christians believed the Eucharist was Jesus' body and blood. Without getting into too much detail, he says the Eucharist was like the Old Passover, participated in the New Passover of Jesus. You see you had to eatthe lamb that had been sacrificed. Remember, St. Paul saying 'Christ, our paschal lamb has been sacrificed for us. Therefore let us keep the feast" I Cor 5:7-8
Now so all stones aren't thrown in my direction. Ask a Lutheran, Anglican, or Orthodox when the Epiclecis occurs during the Eucharist?

And other question for everyone, when Jesus said, 'give us this day our daily bread. What kind of bread was this? The word in greek is epi ousios and I'm told appears no where else in scripture. St. Jerome translated it to mean supersubtantial bread. We were to receive it daily and its supernatural just like manna. In the Bread of Life Discourse they asked 'how can this man give us his flesh to eat? Jesus didn't say 'Oh, you don't understand I'm just talking symbolically', he said "Amen, Amen! Unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink His blood you have no life in you . . . .