• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Another Catholic Question

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
From what I have learned, every Orthodox Church has a "bishop's chair." This could be a hold over from the concept of "seat of Moses."
It could be.
>Dispensationalism is primarily an American phenomena.
We were talking of "Moses Seat." Where did this sudden rabbit trail come from? Dispensationalism is a natural outgrowth of millennialism and pre-millennialism, both of which were believed by the ECF under the name of Chiliasm. Don't go saying this is a modern phenomena. It isn't. Because one is ignorant of the facts of history doesn't change the facts of history.
The Scofield Bible was underwritten by a PB. Dallas Theo was a PB school for years.
And so? His great desire was to compile a study Bible. That he accomplished. Many have been grateful for it. Are you his foremost critic? Scofield never took credit for dispensationalism and rightly so.
 

Alive in Christ

New Member
Lori...

"Thanks for the link, but, there are so many errors and false statements in these videos."

Errors and false statements???

Ummmm, Lori, He quotes from Catholic documents (Council of Trent, Vatican II) and he refutes from the scriptures)

Talk about a false teacher.

Yes, thats exactly what is exposed here, false teaching in the form of the heretical goddess worship of the catholic church.

"He hinges the Catholic belief in Mary as the second Eve totally on Gen. 3:15 then makes the statement about why the dogma of Theotokos
is so that Mary might be 'worshiped', and that Catholics teach that 'Mary gave Christ his God nature' (which, of course, he is wrong) and that 'we have to check the Catholic right there! And on and on. One lie after another."

No. One truth after another. The lies..as always...come from the catholic church.

Typical protestant false teaching on the what the Catholic Church believes.
Problem is he really believes that he knows what he talking about and misleads people.

Lori, I was a catholic for the 1st 24 years of my life. I can testify to the fact that what he says about the Catholic church is absolutely correct

Take it from someone who was been Catholic longer than you have been one...

They are lying to you Lori. Dont let them get away with it.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Alive in Christ, I challenge you to visit this sight and compare the actual teachings and refuting of the common objections raised by the 'teacher' on these videos.

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html

Sorry you were not taught better as a Catholic.
Here is one section that I will use as an example.

. Mary is our Mother and Queen of the New Davidic Kingdom

John 19:26 - Jesus makes Mary the Mother of us all as He dies on the Cross by saying "behold your mother." Jesus did not say "John, behold your mother" because he gave Mary to all of us, his beloved disciples. All the words that Jesus spoke on Cross had a divine purpose. Jesus was not just telling John to take care of his mother.
--Do you always believe lies? This author lies.
What does the verse say?

John 19:26-27 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.
--We take both verses together to get the context. From that hour the disciple (John) took her (Mary) into his own home.
Jesus words are clear. He was asking Mary to submit to the care of John, and John to care for Mary. Then John took Mary into his home and took care of her. That is what it says, and nothing more. Why does the article spout lies?
Rev. 12:17 - this verse proves the meaning of John 19:26. The "woman's" (Mary's) offspring are those who follow Jesus. She is our Mother and we are her offspring in Jesus Christ. The master plan of God's covenant love for us is family. But we cannot be a complete family with the Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of Christ without the Motherhood of Mary.
This verse proves nothing of the sort! Again what does the verse say. Let’s see it in black and white:

Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
--Read through the entire context. When was Mary ever persecuted? The dragon is Satan. The “woman” that was persecuted is Israel. Christ came out of Israel. He was a Jew. Revelation is highly allegoric. But there are clues in how to interpret it. It is obvious that Mary was not persecuted in the way the chapter describes. There is nothing in this verse that speaks of the “motherhood of God.” That is garbage theology. It is not rightly dividing the word of truth. This author is proving that he knows little of God’s Word. This is the category that he belongs in:

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
John 2:3 - this is a very signifcant verse in Scripture. As our mother, Mary tells all of us to do whatever Jesus tells us. Further, Mary's intercession at the marriage feast in Cana triggers Jesus' ministry and a foreshadowing of the Eucharistic celebration of the Lamb. This celebration unites all believers into one famiy through the marriage of divinity and humanity.
Again, look at the verse carefully. Why doesn’t he quote these verses so we can see what they really say? Isn’t that noteworthy enough that the man is a false prophet and deceiver?

John 2:3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
John 2:4-5 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come. His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.
--First, Jesus does not refer to her as mother, and from this point onward never refers to her as mother again. He consistently refers to her as “woman.”
Secondly, it is Mary that becomes subservient to Christ. Mary said: “Whatsoever he says to you, do it.” In other words, Whatever Christ commands that do. Don’t do what Mary does; do what Christ commands. Christ is the commander-in-chief. Obey him; not Mary. This is the lesson to learn from here.
The words of your author are twisted and deceiving; that of a false prophet.
John 2:7 - Jesus allows His mother to intercede for the people on His behalf, and responds to His mother's request by ordering the servants to fill the jars with water.
What is the verse?
John 2:7 Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.
--I don’t see any intercession for the people on Mary’s part. Mary saw a need (vs.3), and went to Jesus. She was rebuked for doing so (vs.4). However, Jesus performed this miracle anyway, and probably would have even if Mary had not come to Him.
Psalm 45:9 - the psalmist teaches that the Queen stands at the right hand of God. The role of the Queen is important in God's kingdom. Mary the Queen of heaven is at the right hand of the Son of God.
Where is the verse?
Psalms 45:6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
--This speaks of Christ. It is a Messianic prophecy.
Psalms 45:9 Kings' daughters were among thy honourable women: upon thy right hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir.
--Christ is the bridegroom; the born again believers that make up the body of Christ; those true believers that have been justified by the blood of Christ (OSAS), those make up the bride, and this is the only bride that is referred to here.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
1 Kings 2:17, 20 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the King does not refuse his mother. Jesus is the new Davidic King, and He does not refuse the requests of his mother Mary, the Queen.
1 Kings 2:17 And he said, Speak, I pray thee, unto Solomon the king, (for he will not say thee nay,) that he give me Abishag the Shunammite to wife.
1 Kings 2:20 Then she said, I desire one small petition of thee; I pray thee, say me not nay. And the king said unto her, Ask on, my mother: for I will not say thee nay.[/quote]
This is incredibly ridiculous. Has he even read the context? The outcome?
1 Kings 2:18 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the Queen intercedes on behalf of the King's followers. She is the Queen Mother (or "Gebirah"). Mary is our eternal Gebirah.
Yeah, right! Out of the abundance of his ignorance he doth speak.
1 Kings 2:18 And Bathsheba said, Well; I will speak for thee unto the king.
1 Kings 2:19 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom the King bows down to his mother and she sits at his right hand. We, as children of the New Covenant, should imitate our King and pay the same homage to Mary our Mother. By honoring Mary, we honor our King, Jesus Christ.
OK, Lori, now look at the context and at what really happened:

1 Kings 2:21-24 And she said, Let Abishag the Shunammite be given to Adonijah thy brother to wife.
22 And king Solomon answered and said unto his mother, And why dost thou ask Abishag the Shunammite for Adonijah? ask for him the kingdom also; for he is mine elder brother; even for him, and for Abiathar the priest, and for Joab the son of Zeruiah.
23 Then king Solomon sware by the LORD, saying, God do so to me, and more also, if Adonijah have not spoken this word against his own life.
24 Now therefore, as the LORD liveth, which hath established me, and set me on the throne of David my father, and who hath made me an house, as he promised, Adonijah shall be put to death this day.
--Use this as a parallel for Mary and the logical conclusion is that every request you ask of Mary will end in someone’s death, correct?
She made a request (interceded for Adonijah). And what was the result? Adonijah was put to death. Those are the historical facts. And this is what you compare Mary to!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1 Kings 15:13 - the Queen Mother is a powerful position in Israel's royal monarchy. Here the Queen is removed from office. But now, the Davidic kingdom is perfected by Jesus, and our Mother Mary is forever at His right hand.
What is the verse?
1 Kings 15:12-13 And he took away the sodomites out of the land, and removed all the idols that his fathers had made.
13 And also Maachah his mother, even her he removed from being queen, because she had made an idol in a grove; and Asa destroyed her idol, and burnt it by the brook Kidron.
1 Kings 15:14 But the high places were not removed: nevertheless Asa's heart was perfect with the LORD all his days.
--In Asa’s day it was hardly a perfected kingdom. The high places (places of idolatrous worship) were left in place. Asa did a lot of good, but he didn’t go all the way. He did not remove the high places. Even so, this verse has nothing to do with Mary. It depicts a wicked woman, possibly a lesbian, but certainly an idolatrous—one of the most wicked queens in the Bible. Is this a picture of Mary???
2 Chron. 22:10 - here Queen Mother Athalia destroys the royal family of Judah after she sees her son, King Ahaziah, dead. The Queen mother plays a significant role in the kingdom.
So Athaliah is a picture of Mary? Do you know what Athalia did?? Let’s see:

2 Chronicles 22:10 But when Athaliah the mother of Ahaziah saw that her son was dead, she arose and destroyed all the seed royal of the house of Judah.
--She was a mass murderer!!

Finally her wicked reign came to an end:
2 Kings 11:20 And all the people of the land rejoiced, and the city was in quiet: and they slew Athaliah with the sword beside the king's house.
--And this is a picture of Mary??
Neh. 2:6 - the Queen Mother sits beside the King. She is the primary intercessor before the King.
Nehemiah 2:6 And the king said unto me, (the queen also sitting by him,) For how long shall thy journey be? and when wilt thou return? So it pleased the king to send me; and I set him a time.
--Where does it say anything about the Queen being a mother, or figurative of Mary?
This is a historical situation where Nehemiah presents a request before the King. His wife, the queen, happened to be sitting beside him at the time. There is nothing unusual about this scene. It has nothing to do with Mary.
--Your false prophet is Biblically ignorant, and has a wild imagination. Don’t be led astray by him.
 

Alive in Christ

New Member
Lori...



This is a large section from the material you recommended that I work through...

(bolding mine)

VI. Mary is our Powerful Intercessor

"For as Eve was seduced by the word of an angel to flee from God, having rebelled against His Word, so Mary by the word of an angel received the glad tidings that she would bear God by obeying his Word. The former was seduced to disobey God, but the latter was persuaded to obey God, so that the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. As the human race was subjected to death through [the act of] a virgin, so it was saved by a virgin." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V:19,1 (A.D. 180).]/b]

"Under your mercy we take refuge, O Mother of God. Do not reject our supplications in necessity, but deliver us from danger,[O you] alone pure and alone blessed." Sub Tuum Praesidium, From Rylands Papyrus, Egypt (3rd century).

"Let, then, the life of Mary be as it were virginity itself, set forth in a likeness, from which, as from a mirror, the appearance of chastity and the form of virtue is reflected.... Nor would I hesitate to admit you to the altars of God, whose souls I would without hesitation call altars, on which Christ is daily offered for the redemption of the body. For if the virgin's body be a temple of God, what is her soul, which, the ashes, as it were, of the body being shaken off, once more uncovered by the hand of the Eternal Priest, exhales the vapor of the divine fire. Blessed virgins, who emit a fragrance through divine grace as gardens do through flowers, temples through religion, altars through the priest." Ambrose, On Virginity II:6,18 (A.D. 378).


"Recalling these and other circumstances and imploring the Virgin Mary to bring assistance, since she, too, was a virgin and had been in danger, she entrusted herself to the remedy of fasting and sleeping on the ground." Gregory of Nazianzen, Oration 24:11 (A.D. 379).

"For it is said that he [Gregory the Wonderworker] heard the one who had appeared in womanly form exhorting John the Evangelist to explain to the young man the mystery of the true faith. John, in his turn, declared that he was completely willing to please the Mother of the Lord even in this matter and this was the one thing closest to his heart. And so the discussion coming to a close, and after they had made it quite clear and precise for him, the two disappeared from his sight." Gregory of Nyssa, On Gregory the WonderWorker (A.D. 380).

"Mary, the holy Virgin, is truly great before God and men. For how shall we not proclaim her great, who held within her the uncontainable One, whom neither heaven nor earth can contain?" Epiphanius, Panarion, 30:31 (ante A.D. 403).

"Give milk, Mother to him who is our food, give milk to the bread coming down from heaven ...give milk to him who made you such that he could be made fruitfulness in conception and in birth, did not take from you the ornament of virginity." Augustine, Sermon 369:1 (A.D. 430).


"Hail to thee Mary, Mother of God, to whom in towns and villages and in island were founded churches of true believers." Cyril of Alexandria, Homily 11 (ante A.D. 444).

"Hail, our desirable gladness; Hail, O rejoicing of the Churches; Hail, O name that breathes out sweetness; Hail, face that radiates divinity and grace; Hail, most venerable memory…" Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily 4:3 (ante A.D. 446).


"The Virgin's festival (parthenike panegyris) incites our tongue today to herald her praise ...handmaid and Mother, Virgin and heaven, the only bridge of God to men, the awful loom of the Incarnation, in which by some unspeakable way the garment of that union was woven, whereof the weaver is the Holy Ghost; and the spinner the overshadowing from on high; the wool the ancient fleece of Adam; the woof the undefiled flesh from the virgin, the weaver's shuttle the immense grace of Him who brought it about; the artificer the Word gliding through the hearing." Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 (ante A.D. 446).

"The Virgin received Salvation so that she may give it back to the centuries." Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140 (ante A.D. 450).


"O Virgin all holy, he who has said of you all that is honorable and glorious has not sinned against the truth, but remains unequal to your merit. Look down upon us from above and be propitious to us. Lead us in peace and having brought us without shame to the throne of judgment, grant us a place at the right hand of your Son, that we may borne off to heaven and sing with angels to the uncreated, consubstantial Trinity. " Basil of Seleucia, PG 85:452 (ante A.D. 459).


"Cease your laments; I will make myself your advocate in my Son's presence. Meanwhile, no more sadness, because I have brought joy to the world. For it is to destroy the kingdom of sorrow that I have come into the world: I full of grace ... Then curb your tears; accept me as your mediatrix in the presence of him who was born from me, because the author of joy is the God generated before all ages. Remain calm; be troubled no longer: I come from him, full of grace." Romanos the Singer, On Christmas 2,10-11 (ante A.D. 560).


"Raised to heaven, she remains for the human race an unconquerable rampart, interceding for us before her Son and God." Theoteknos of Livias, Assumption 291(ante A.D. 560).


"Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, because thou didst conceive Christ, the Son of God, the Redeemer of our souls." Coptic Ostraca (A.D. 600).


"Mary the Ever-Virgin -- radiant with divine light and full of grace, mediatrix first through her supernatural birth and now because of the intercession of her maternal assistance -- be crowned with never ending blessings ...seeking balance and fittingness in all things, we should make our way honestly, as sons of light." Germanus of Constantinople, Homily on the Liberation of Constantinople, 23 (ante A.D. 733).


"O, how marvelous it is! She acts as a mediatrix between the loftiness of God and the lowliness of the flesh, and becomes Mother of the Creator." Andrew of Crete, Homily 1 on Mary's Nativity (ante A.D. 740).
"She is all beautiful, all near to God. For she, surpassing the cherubim. Exalted beyond the seraphim, is placed near to God." John of Damascene, Homily on the Nativity, 9 (ante A.D. 749).


"We today also remain near you, O Lady. Yes, I repeat, O Lady, Mother of God and Virgin. We bind our souls to your hope, as to a most firm and totally unbreakable anchor, consecrating to you mind, soul, body, and all our being and honoring you, as much as we can, with psalms, hymns, and spiritual canticles." John of Damascene, Homily 1 on the Dormition, 14 (ante A.D. 749).

"Let us entrust ourselves with all our soul's affection to the intercession of the Blessed Virgin: let us all, with all our strength, beg her patronage, that, at the moment when on earth we surround her with our suppliant homage, she herself may deign in heaven to commend us with fervent prayer. For without any doubt she who merited to bring ransom for those who needed deliverance, can more than all the saints benefit by her favor those who have received deliverance." Ambrose Autpert, Assumption of the Virgin, (ante A.D. 778).

"Let us approach with confident spirit the throne of the high Priest, where he is our victim, priest, advocate and judge." Radbert Paschasius, On the Assumption (ante A.D. 786).

"For she who brought forth the source of mercy, Jesus Christ, our God and Lord, receiving from him all things, will and through him, grant the wishes of all." Paul the Deacon, (ante A.D. 799).

"You scatter your favors with still greater abundance since you possess more fully him who is their source and who is entirely willing to give them to us, rather you possess almost everything by yourself and you show largesse to whom you will and to him who begs it of you." John the Geometer, Life of Mary (A.D. 989).

"May we deserve to have the help of your intercession in heaven, because as the Son of God has deigned to descend to us through you, so we also must come to him with you." Peter Damian, (ante A.D. 1072).
"The Mother of God is our mother. May the good mother ask and beg for us, may she request and obtain what is good for us." Anselm, Oration 7(ante A.D. 1109).

"O whoever you may be who feel yourself on the tide of this world drifting in storms and tempests rather than treading firm ground, turn not your eyes from the effulgence of this star, unless you wish to be submerged ... if she holds you, you do not fall, if she protects you, you have no fear; with her to lead you, you tire not; with her favour, you will reach your goal, conscious thus within yourself how rightly the word was spoken: 'And the Virgin's name was Mary.'" Bernard, Homily 2:17, Respice stellam (ante A.D. 1153)


Lori, every bit of what is being propagated here in this material is wicked to the core. This is pure goddess worship.

And the bolded parts can not come from anywhere but the heart of Satan.

This stuff is of the evil one, Lori. It is demonic. It is devilish.

It is anti-God, anti-Christ, anti-truth, anti-gospel, and anti-Holy Spirit.

What is become more and more clear to me is that I believe you are MUCH more heavilly into Catholicism than how you came across at 1st.

If you are able to justify and promote teachings as satanic as what is in these these passages from the Catholic website you linked to, then they *probably* have you "hook, line, and sinker".

And thats not a good place to be, Lori.

You are being lied to, Lori. And you know who the "father of lies" is.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Kinda looks like the Trinity is getting ready to admit one more member to deity.

Oh well... Mariolotry being what it is.

The goddess Mary in the RCC as CoRedemptrix -

"With equal truth may it be also affirmed that, by the will of God, Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God, for mercy and truth were created by Jesus Christ, thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother....How grateful and magnificent a spectacle to see in the cities, and towns, and villages, on land and sea—wherever the Catholic
faith has penetrated—many hundreds of thousands of pious people uniting their praises and prayers with one voice and heart at every moment of the day, saluting Mary, invoking Mary, hoping everything through Mary." - Pope Leo XIII, Octobri Mense

"
O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, obtains salvation except through thee, none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee
." - Pope Leo XIII, Adiutricem Populi

"
Mary suffered and, as it were, nearly died with her suffering Son; for the salvation of mankind she renounced her mother's rights and, as far as it depended on her, offered her Son to placate divine justice; so we may well say that she with Christ redeemed mankind.
" - Pope Benedict XV, Inter Sodalicia

"
Mary's suffering [at Calvary], beside the suffering of Jesus, reached an intensity which can hardly be imagined from a human point of view but which was mysteriously and supernaturally fruitful for the Redemption of the world." - Pope John Paul II, Salvifici Doloris, no. 25




In a 1985 address at the Marian shrine in Guayaquil, Ecuador, Pope John Paul II said:

"Mary goes before us and accompanies us. The silent journey that begins with her Immaculate Conception and passes through the ‘yes’ of Nazareth, which makes her the Mother of God, finds on Calvary a particularly important moment. There also, accepting and assisting at the sacrifice of her son, Mary is the dawn of Redemption....Crucified spiritually with her crucified son




(cf. Gal. 2:20), she contemplated with heroic love the death of her God, she ‘lovingly consented to the immolation of this Victim which she herself had brought forth’ (Lumen Gentium, 58)....In fact, at Calvary she united herself with the sacrifice of her Son that led to the foundation of the Church; her maternal heart shared to the very depths the will of Christ ‘to gather into one all the dispersed children of God’ (Jn. 11:52). Having suffered for the Church, Mary deserved to become the Mother of all the disciples of her Son, the Mother of their unity....In fact, Mary's role as Coredemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son" (Inseg VIII/1 (1985) 318-319 [ORE 876:7]).

[/quote]

 
Last edited by a moderator:

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Next -- the subject of "Worship at Mary's Altars"

WORSHIP at Mary’s Altars

Mariology: - Prayer offered to – Mary


"Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, Oh Immaculate Mother of Jesus and our Mother....we adore and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature, from the moment of conception until the day on which after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Queen of the Universe. Oh crystal fountain of
faith,
bathe our hearts
with your heavenly perfume. Oh
Conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to God and the slave of hell. Oh well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cries which rise up from every heart in this year dedicated to you. Then tenderly, Oh Mary, cover our aching wound; convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed. Comfort the poor and humble. Quench hatred,
sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity and
protect the Holy Church. In your name resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that all are brothers...Receive, Oh sweet Mother our humble supplications and above all, obtain for us that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which is sung today around your altars. You are beautiful Oh Mary. You are Glory Oh Mary. You are the joy, you are the Honor of
our people.
" – Pope Pius XII, celebration of the Marian Year in Rome, 1950


 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
One of the Marian doctrines that confuses me is why is it necissary that Mary not suffer pain in child birth? Can you explain that to me?
 

Zenas

Active Member
One of the Marian doctrines that confuses me is why is it necissary that Mary not suffer pain in child birth? Can you explain that to me?
It's the immaculate conception thing. The woman's punishment for sin is set forth in Genesis 3:16.
To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply your pain in childbirth, in pain you will bring forth children; yet your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."
Since sin brought on increased pain in childbirth, one born without original sin (Mary) would have minimal pain in childbirth. I think this concept originated with Aquinas.

When the movie The Nativity Story came out a few years ago, a number of Catholics criticized it because it portrayed Mary as experiencing great pain in childbirth.

I believe they also interpret Isaiah 66:7 as evidence of a painless childbirth by Mary.
 

Agnus_Dei

New Member
Yeah, it's the whole 'Mary being the Second Eve' thing (and, no, I don't buy that either).
i buy it...because Mary's obedient submission to the will of God offset Eve's disobedience in Paradise. in Orthodoxy we teach that, as Christ is the "New Adam", Mary, the Theotokos is the "New Eve".

in the same way that sin and death come into the world by the rebellion of both man and woman; sin and death are overcome in the world by the faithfulness of both man and woman. thus, our Orthodox hymns of the feast of the Annunciation speak of this holy day being the "beginning of our salvation". it is by Mary willingly accepting her Divine calling to be the mother of the Messiah that the People of God see the gates of Paradise opening for them again - this is also the very reason that the icon of the Annunciation is on the Royal Doors of our iconostas found in all Orthodox Churches.

In XC
-
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
Yeah, it's the whole 'Mary being the Second Eve' thing (and, no, I don't buy that either).

I'm supprised at you Matt. Mary being equated with the second eve is all over the patristic writings. Though since its the case that you do not I'm curious as to why not?
 

Peggy

New Member
Matt:

No Mary, no Christ.

Gen 3:15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel."

I believe "the woman" God talks about here in the first prophecy of our salvation is Mary. Her offspring is Jesus. Mary wasn't some random Jewish girl that God choose from among the people of Israel. She was chosen specifically by him from the foundation of the world.

The disobedience of Eve was atoned for by the obedience of Mary.

Luk 1:38 And Mary said, "Behold, I am the servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word." And the angel departed from her.

The disobedience of Adam was atoned for by the obedience of Jesus as he laid his life down for the salvation of all men.

It makes sense to me to consider Mary as the new Eve just as Jesus is the new Adam.
 

Matt Black

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I've found the following, for example, in Irenaeus' Adv. Haer.:

Irenaeus said:
4. In accordance with this design, Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to your word. Luke 1:38 But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being nevertheless as yet a virgin (for in Paradise they were both naked, and were not ashamed, Genesis 2:25 inasmuch as they, having been created a short time previously, had no understanding of the procreation of children: for it was necessary that they should first come to adult age, and then multiply from that time onward), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race. And on this account does the law term a woman betrothed to a man, the wife of him who had betrothed her, although she was as yet a virgin; thus indicating the back-reference from Mary to Eve, because what is joined together could not otherwise be put asunder than by inversion of the process by which these bonds of union had arisen; so that the former ties be cancelled by the latter, that the latter may set the former again at liberty. And it has, in fact, happened that the first compact looses from the second tie, but that the second tie takes the position of the first which has been cancelled. For this reason did the Lord declare that the first should in truth be last, and the last first. Matthew 19:30, Matthew 20:16 And the prophet, too, indicates the same, saying, instead of fathers, children have been born unto you. For the Lord, having been born the First-begotten of the dead, Revelation 1:5 and receiving into His bosom the ancient fathers, has regenerated them into the life of God, He having been made Himself the beginning of those that live, as Adam became the beginning of those who die. 1 Corinthians 15:20-22 Wherefore also Luke, commencing the genealogy with the Lord, carried it back to Adam, indicating that it was He who regenerated them into the Gospel of life, and not they Him. And thus also it was that the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith.

OK, I'll buy it - but with reservations similar to those I have re the theotokos doctrine ie: as long as it doesn't have the effect of raising Mary's status to one of co-equality with her Son.
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
I've found the following, for example, in Irenaeus' Adv. Haer.:



OK, I'll buy it - but with reservations similar to those I have re the theotokos doctrine ie: as long as it doesn't have the effect of raising Mary's status to one of co-equality with her Son.
I wasn't asking you to buy it. I was just pointing out that this view of Mary as the second eve is all over the Patristic writings and you being Anglican and all would have knowledge of that. I was hoping you had a really good reason that despite the Patristics writings there was, at least in your mind, a viable reason not to accept their view of this.
 
Top