Another "Free Will" Passage to Consider

[skypair]

Psa 33:14-15, 18-19, 21

14 From the place of his habitation [eternity] he looketh upon all the inhabitants of the earth. 15 He fashioneth their hearts alike; he considereth all their works ["conditional" salvation].
...
18 Behold, the eye of the LORD is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope [believe] in his mercy; 19 To deliver their soul [the very thing we lost in sin, Ezek 18:4] from death.
...
21 For our heart [spirits] shall rejoice [emotion] in him, because we have trusted in his holy name."

I hope you appreciate my comments which I feel in no way changes the meaning (Read the complete passage in your Bible to be sure.).

skypair

 

[Jarthur001]

Psa 33:14-15, 18-19, 21

14 From the place of his habitation [eternity] he looketh upon all the inhabitants of the earth. 15 He fashioneth their hearts alike; he considereth all their works ["conditional" salvation].
...
18 Behold, the eye of the LORD is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope [believe] in his mercy; 19 To deliver their soul [the very thing we lost in sin, Ezek 18:4] from death.
...
21 For our heart [spirits] shall rejoice [emotion] in him, because we have trusted in his holy name."

I hope you appreciate my comments which I feel in no way changes the meaning (Read the complete passage in your Bible to be sure.).

skypair

Conditional salvation? And you think you have not changed the Word?
God saves only good people...is this what your clamining?

If one would not pull verses out of context, one would clearly see the meaning of this passage. Lets look at the full passage.

1Shout for joy in the LORD, O you righteous!
Praise befits the upright.
2Give thanks to the LORD with the lyre;
make melody to him with the harp of ten strings!
3Sing to him a new song;
play skillfully on the strings, with loud shouts.


4For the word of the LORD is upright,
and all his work is done in faithfulness.
5He loves righteousness and justice;
the earth is full of the steadfast love of the LORD.



6By the word of the LORD the heavens were made,
and by the breath of his mouth all their host.
7He gathers the waters of the sea as a heap;
he puts the deeps in storehouses.



8Let all the earth fear the LORD;
let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him!
9For he spoke, and it came to be;
he commanded, and it stood firm.



10The LORD brings the counsel of the nations to nothing;
he frustrates the plans of the peoples.
11The counsel of the LORD stands forever,
the plans of his heart to all generations.
12Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD,
the people whom he has chosen as his heritage!



13The LORD looks down from heaven;
he sees all the children of man;
14from where he sits enthroned he looks out
on all the inhabitants of the earth,
15he who fashions the hearts of them all
and observes all their deeds.

NOTE: These verses clearly show God is in FULL control of all things. God even "fashions" the heart of men.

But notice also the next verse..

16The king is not saved by his great army;
a warrior is not delivered by his great strength.
17The war horse is a false hope for salvation,
and by its great might it cannot rescue.

The Army is not great...it is God that fashions the heart of the warrior that is great.
The warrior did not deliver...it was God that gave the warrior has power and strenght...so it is God that delivers.

Its all about God folks. God is in ful control of all things...even if you do not like it.

18Behold, the eye of the LORD is on those who fear him,
on those who hope in his steadfast love,
19that he may deliver their soul from death
and keep them alive in famine.

God cares for His people...

So as you see...in context this is a passage where once again God is in control of all things. Why not trust in Him today...and give up on your logic.

 

[donnA]

one can n ot pull out seperate texts and build a teaching, you must take all texts together andlet scripture interpet scripture, and then what do you do with the problem verses you can use for your doctrine?

 

[pinoybaptist]

So as you see...in context this is a passage where once again God is in control of all things. Why not trust in Him today...and give up on your logic.

context is not a word found in the dictionary as far as skypair is concerned.

this guy is hopeless as far as context goes.

i'm just happy for him that God never chooses anyone based on whether he quotes scripture in context or not.

 

[skypair]

Conditional salvation? And you think you have not changed the Word?
God saves only good people...is this what your clamining?

Actually, no, Jarthur -- but only BELIEVERS. Notice later in the passage David says "those that fear Him and believe in His mercy."

the people whom he has chosen as his heritage! Yes -- BELIEVERS ... or Israel ("the nation") in this case. But in the later context that I cite, it also applies to believers --- not just some "elect" individuals.

So as you see...in context this is a passage where once again God is in control of all things. Why not trust in Him today...and give up on your logic.

Oh, I trust Him already. I'm just wondering how you could if you are only "elect."

skypair

 

[Jarthur001]

Actually, no, Jarthur -- but only BELIEVERS. Notice later in the passage David says "those that fear Him and believe in His mercy."

the people whom he has chosen as his heritage! Yes -- BELIEVERS ... or Israel ("the nation") in this case. But in the later context that I cite, it also applies to believers --- not just some "elect" individuals.


Oh, I trust Him already. I'm just wondering how you could if you are only "elect."

skypair

I see. It is clear from this post no one has told you that all elect to salvation do in fact become believers. Some this "just some of the elect"...is in fact believers as viewed in the NT.

also this may help...

one could change a few words without changing the context...
just change "the people whom he has chosen as his heritage!"
the people whom he has elected as his heritage...ARE...or will become believers. so yes...this is the elect

so this statement you made above..

Oh, I trust Him already. I'm just wondering how you could if you are only "elect."

does not make a bit of sense. The elect are the ones that trust in Him. They are "his heritage" as seen in this passage.

for you to say..."only the elect"...shows your lack of understanding here. He also .... "fashions the hearts of them all"...as you well know from this passage. Do you understand what fashion the heart means? This is not just the elect...but "all the inhabitants of the earth"...as seen in this passage

I hope this helps.

 

[skypair]

I see. It is clear from this post no one has told you that all elect to salvation do in fact become believers. Some this "just some of the elect"...is in fact believers as viewed in the NT.

also this may help...

one could change a few words without changing the context...
just change "the people whom he has chosen as his heritage!"
the people whom he has elected as his heritage...ARE...or will become believers. so yes...this is the elect

so this statement you made above..

does not make a bit of sense. The elect are the ones that trust in Him. They are "his heritage" as seen in this passage.

for you to say..."only the elect"...shows your lack of understanding here. He also .... "fashions the hearts of them all"...as you well know from this passage. Do you understand what fashion the heart means? This is not just the elect...but "all the inhabitants of the earth"...as seen in this passage

I hope this helps.

That's an admirable "helping" attitude, Ja. A little "edgy" but not bad. raying: Yes, I realize that "elect" become believers. Here's how I heard it taught on Christian radio once --- that this pastor who was preaching said he was bringing the "elect" to God.

In another place, I've seen this view of it -- that missionaries go as much to harden the hearts of the "non-elect" (to make their condemnation that much more clear) as they do to the "elect" to "effectually call" them on God's behalf.

Now in all this, I find it way too weird that God the Holy Spirit indwells the "elect" before they believe --- regeneration before faith. It's not so weird from the POV of what the Reformers and the Catholics before them were trying to do, save their infants through baptism, but it is weird from God's POV that He isn't going to come into a filthy "house." But there you have it -- God living in "total depravity."

Instead, here would be my theology on that ---- that it isn't until we believe (have "unproven" faith) and repent toward God that we are "justified" unto salvation. This means that our conscience which controls our life (formerly on behalf of self) is turned over to God.

NOW God the Holy Spirit comes into a "pure" environment. In fact, if you have been saved, you will realize His arrival "with power!" Full of wisdom, emotion, and godly will for some period of days --- almost as powerful individually as you can imagine Pentecost was had you been there!!

You know what that does? It gives you faith from God Himself. He has just given you the "substance" and "evidence" that turns gospel belief into "know so" faith of personal salvation (Heb 11:1!

You couldn't have got this faith without the Holy Spirit. You could only comprehend and believe the simple gospel before that moment. Anything else --- understanding heaven, etc. --- was "hidden wisdom," 1Cor 2:6. But now you have a host of new "hopes"/beliefs of future things that, on account of faith, you can know will be your destiny.

Like 1Cor 13:1 says, "Faith, hope, charity,..." You have faith in things you have "seen," spiritually they are substantive and evidencial -- your salvation, the indwelling of the Spirit, etc. You have hope in the things you haven't seen -- the "blessed hope" of His return, the hope of heaven, etc. And you have love one for another -- not to tear down godly men/women but to edify and build up.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Jarthur,

And yes, I see "He fashions the hearts of all ALIKE." He didn't fashion the elect any different than the non-elect. Is there some reason you left out "ALIKE?"

You see, the "heart" is your spirit (mind, emotions, and will). He didn't give you the Holy Spirit and leave that out of others when He fashioned the "non-elect." There is NONE that have an advantage before the gospel of Christ. ALL must believe with the same "heart" God gave to each and all.

skypair

 

[Dale-c]

Now in all this, I find it way too weird that God the Holy Spirit indwells the "elect" before they believe --- regeneration before faith. It's not so weird from the POV of what the Reformers and the Catholics before them were trying to do, save their infants through baptism, but it is weird from God's POV that He isn't going to come into a filthy "house." But there you have it -- God living in "total depravity."

Instead, here would be my theology on that ---- that it isn't until we believe (have "unproven" faith) and repent toward God that we are "justified" unto salvation. This means that our conscience which controls our life (formerly on behalf of self) is turned over to God.

NOW God the Holy Spirit comes into a "pure" environment. In fact, if you have been saved, you will realize His arrival "with power!" Full of wisdom, emotion, and godly will for some period of days --- almost as powerful individually as you can imagine Pentecost was had you been there!!

So we have to make ourselves pure because God would never dwell in a depravity?

So what exactly is the point of salvation if we can make ourselves pure?

Can't you see that you are adding works to grace?
You are adding to the scripture.

What you don't seem to understand is that it is God that prepares out hearts unto salvation, not us.

 

[skypair]

So we have to make ourselves pure because God would never dwell in a depravity?

In a manner of speaking. See, we have to be "justified" - GIVEN the "righteousness of God" - before He will indwell us. How do we attain to that? Believe, but not "in vain." Believe, therefore, and repent toward God and receive the Gifts He has promised to NT BELIEVERS -- indwelling, faith, spiritual gifts, eternal life, etc. JUSTIFICATION is required before "election"/SANCTIFICATION. What I have maintained all along is that Calvinism attempts to sanctify the unjustified in a lot of cases.

So what exactly is the point of salvation if we can make ourselves pure?

Paul spoke of this -- John, too. God gives us a "pure conscience" when we repent and receive His gift of salvation. It is "pure" in that we are restored to our relationship by the blood of Christ. Would you not consider that the first cause of "election?"

Can't you see that you are adding works to grace?

As you view it, yes. As I view it, there are no "works" yet --- "belief" is not a "work," Rom 4:5. If you want to call "receiving a gift" as works, you are equating salvation with "the wages of SIN" when, in fact, we know that salvation is the "GIFT of God" not ever "earned." You just have been taught a perverse view of our part in salvation which doesn't even account for justification first.

What you don't seem to understand is that it is God that prepares out hearts unto salvation, not us.

OK, how is that in your view? And what is the "heart?"

skypair

 

[Jarthur001]

Jarthur,

And yes, I see "He fashions the hearts of all ALIKE." He didn't fashion the elect any different than the non-elect. Is there some reason you left out "ALIKE?"

You see, the "heart" is your spirit (mind, emotions, and will). He didn't give you the Holy Spirit and leave that out of others when He fashioned the "non-elect." There is NONE that have an advantage before the gospel of Christ. ALL must believe with the same "heart" God gave to each and all.

skypair

Yes..and that is the point is it not?

We are all born into a dead state a Godless being. Not wanting God..not having anything to do with Him. We are all in the same boat.

God then elects and changes the heart of some....for without this changing of the heart salvation would never happen

Gill on this says..

Ver. 15. He fashioneth their hearts alike,.... The Lord is the former and fashioner of the heart, spirit, or soul of man, even of all hearts and spirits; whence he is called the Father of spirits, Heb 12:9; see
Zec 12:1; and he is the former of them alike; which seems to intimate as if all seals were alike, as they are made by the Lord; and it may be the difference there appears to be between them afterwards, nay be owing to the make and constitution of their bodies, to their education, and different situation, circumstances, and advantages in life, whereby the hearts of some may be more opened and enlarged than others. Some render it "together", or "altogether" {g}; which must not be understood of time, as if they were all made at once, but of equality; the one was made by him as well as the other; he is the fashioner of one and all of them, every whit of them; they are wholly fashioned by him, and all that is in them, all the powers and faculties of the soul; and by him only, and not by the instrumentality of another; for souls are created, not generated; they are produced out of nothing, and not out of pre-existent matter, as bodies; parents contribute somewhat to the bodies of their children, but not anything to their souls. God only "is the God of the spirits of all flesh", Nu 16:22; some translate the word "singly" {h}; one by one, one after another in the several ages of time; for he continues to fashion them, and is always doing it; see
Zec 12:1. And he forms the hearts of his own people anew for himself, for his own glory; he forms Christ in them, and every grace of his Spirit; he forms them into one, and knits and unites them together in love, and makes them like to one another; for as face answers to face in water, so do the hearts and experiences of the saints one to another, Pr 27:19; all which he does wholly and alone; and since he fashions the hearts of all men in every sense, he must know them, which is the design of this expression; he knows the hearts of wicked men, and all the wickedness that is in them; he knows the hearts of good men, the worst that is in them, and also the best, which he himself has put there;

he considereth all their works; the works of evil men, not only their more open ones, but their more secret ones, and will bring them into judgment; and the works of good men, even their good works, which he will remember and reward in a way of grace.

{g} dxy "simul", Musculus, Gejerus; so Ainsworth. {h} katamonav Sept. "sigillatim", V. L.

So....Without this you are saying some or born smarter then others...and there by understand God and are saved. This is just not the case as seen in this passage.

I even wrote on this very thing in my weekly column this very week.

This view also makes the human race differ by nature, whereas, the Bible says, we are all by nature the children of wrath and all clay of the same lump. This idea would make some of mankind smarter or wiser than others, and this would be the reason for belief by some and not others. Yet the Bible clearly says we are all sinners and in the same boat headed for damnation.


Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.


Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


Men are made to differ in the new birth. After the new birth is when our eyes are open to the truth.


John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The full column is found on at this link..
http://www.lincolnstandard.com/main.asp?SectionID=26&SubSectionID=301&ArticleID=1710&TM=36940.05

 

[skypair]

Got that wrong. We are all born "innocent" at heart. We do not have one thought, emotion, or will (except, regarding will, "survival instinct") that is self-centered. The "heart" is our mind, emotions, and will -- AKA "spirit."

God then elects and changes the heart of some....for without this changing of the heart salvation would never happen

Another Cavlinist misunderstanding. What is the first thing we can know regarding self and God? That we have sinned. That is, indeed, a function of the Spirit (conviction) BUT we don't come to it because we are "elect" or "regenerated." We come to it by our capacity to know, like Adam and Eve, "good and evil."

Now starts the process of being "enlightened" by scripture. Finding out in our spirits why we aren't perfect like God. Slowly, SCRIPTURE enlightens us -- not any indwelling Spirit; we're not spiritually "reborn" yet.

Gill on this says..

Gill appears to contradict himself. He says "environment" forms one to be open and another not to be yet he says God forms every bit of every person. Now both make God the "Author of sin."

I like that he says that God alone forms the soul, though. That is where our awareness of God resides. If we are said to be in any way His children from birth, it is this part of man that is "related" and that "breaks" the relationship on account of sin. In infancy and as children, it is this aspect of man that depends on God alone which is why Jesus could say, "Of such is the kingdom of God."

So....Without this you are saying some or born smarter then others...and thereby understand God and are saved. This is just not the case as seen in this passage.

Gill seems to be saying that with his "environment" comment, but not me. I do say that man must comprehend salvation before one can be saved, yes. But as we have seen in scripture, "God has revealed it to the weak,..." and not to the "wise" in most cases.

I even wrote on this very thing in my weekly column this very week.

I can only hope you won't take yourself so seriously as to not listen to my remarks. raying: We all "develop" into sinners -- there is no doubt of that. But Calvinism got themselves into deep trouble and grave error in trying to save infants with their theology (Course, what could they do?? The Catholics would have a "lock" on saving infants by baptism and so who would bring their kids to Calvin??!).

Your article certainly gives the Calvinist view in no uncertain terms (at least in your mind). Unfortunately, election is unto "purpose and blessing" which is why two such diverse faiths (OT Judaism and NT Christianity) can be said to both be "elect." And 2Tim 2:10 actually says "Chosen to salvation..." followed by some stipulations/conditions: 1) sanctification of the Spirit, 2) sprinkling of blood (which can't happen until we believe) 3) "according to our gospel." (must hear and receive). These all indicate that salvation is contingent upon our belief on Christ.

skypair

 

[JustChristian]

Conditional salvation? And you think you have not changed the Word?
God saves only good people...is this what your clamining?

If one would not pull verses out of context, one would clearly see the meaning of this passage. Lets look at the full passage.



So as you see...in context this is a passage where once again God is in control of all things. Why not trust in Him today...and give up on your logic.

I think a better interpretation is faithful people, those that have accepted His Son as their Lord and Savior and follow Him. Indeed, why not trust in Him today?

Mar 8:34 And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Mar 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
Mar 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
Mar 8:37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Mar 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.