Another James Randi rant

[Peter101]

>>>>>Demons are not imaginary. No, they are not dancing in front of our faces, and most of our problems stem from our own sinful hearts before we are saved, but nevertheless, they sure seem to know how to take advantage of those who are willing to be deceived.<<<<<

Demons are not a factor in my world. I asked my sister, an emergency room nurse, if she believed in Demons. After a couple of days to consider it, she said that she did. I then asked if her emergency room has a procedure to cast out demons. She didn't seem to like the question. I suppose I might believe in Demons if emergency rooms had a procedure on how to deal with demons. But I don't know of a single emergency room in the world that expects to encounter demons. So I conclude that if they exist at all, they are really hard to identify and that the world as I know it is indistinguishable from one without demons.

 

[Steven O. Sawyer]

Originally posted by Peter101:
So I conclude that if <demons>exist at all, they are really hard to identify and that the world as I know it is indistinguishable from one without demons.

I don't see demons under every bush either, but doesn't your comment speak volumes about how unspiritually discerning and blind we are in our sinful condition? Jesus had no problems identifying demons. Neither apparently did the apostles.

I believe in illnesses of the body and illnesses of the mind because we are fallen creatures and all parts of our being were affected by the fall of Adam (the doctrine of total depravity). Occultic power comes from demons. Please dust off that book we call the Bible and check out what it says about demons and divination for yourself.

 

[Elena]

Jesus had no problems identifying demons. Neither apparently did the apostles.

EF It's useful to remember that people attributed mental illness to the possession of demons and/or angry gods. Today we understand these things a little better. Just because someone once claimed they were demons, does not literally mean that demons exist. Jesus would have understood the importance of using language understood by the people at the time.

 

[Elena]

However, since she persists in this discussion perhaps Elena is not as offended by questioning as I might be.

EF I'm used to it. It's not uncommon for young earth creationists to question my faith because I disagree with their literal intepretation of the bible. I also appreciate the distinction you provided and, if you don't mind.....for those of you who wish to continue to question my faith.... what he said

 

[john6:63]

Originally posted by Elena:
useful to remember that people attributed mental illness to the possession of demons and/or angry gods. Today we understand these things a little better. Just because someone once claimed they were demons, does not literally mean that demons exist. Jesus would have understood the importance of using language understood by the people at the time.

Matt 8:28-32

And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way. And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding. So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine. And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.

So Elena, in your scientific opinion, what event is taking place in Matthew 8:28-32?

 

[ColoradoFB]

I am not Elena, but I am in agreement with her view of demons.

As for the biblical passage referenced above, I have heard that is the first time the world saw "deviled ham"!

 

[john6:63]

Originally posted by ColoradoFB:
As for the biblical passage referenced above, I have heard that is the first time the world saw "deviled ham"!

Looks like all those HBO specials of George Carlin is finally paying off for you. Congrats!

 

[ChurchBoy]

Originally posted by Elena:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> However, since she persists in this discussion perhaps Elena is not as offended by questioning as I might be.

EF I'm used to it. It's not uncommon for young earth creationists to question my faith because I disagree with their literal intepretation of the bible. I also appreciate the distinction you provided and, if you don't mind.....for those of you who wish to continue to question my faith.... what he said </font>[/QUOTE]Elena,

I for one never questioned your faith. I do not know your heart so I am in no postion to question your faith, Why do you assume I am a YEC? I believe I have never said that. From your posts I gather that you do not accept anything as true without first studying it to see if it is true. I was only interested to see how you came to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God? You have made many points about not accepting anything without evidence. Again, I ask (and I ask this question generally, not just to Elena specifically) what evidence did you see that led you to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God? You say by faith. But I see an inconsistency here in thought process. Either Jesus Christ died and was rssurected or he did not. There is no other choice. If He did die and was ressurected then this event is a historical event. It is part of history. We have the Bible and other documents that detail that this event did indeed happen. Faith comes in that we did not see this event personally but we trust the the Bible is true in it's description of this historical event and that Jesus Christ is who he says he is. I just don't understand how one can accept Jesus' resurection on faith but need "evidence" to accept other aspects of the Bible.

 

[Paul of Eugene]

Churchboy, your question is basic to the discussion and I look forward to reading Elena's personal response and don't mind sharing my own history in this area.

I became a Christian as a child somewhere around age 8 and was baptized into the church I attended; I still remember the experience, it was as genuine a conversion experience as one could expect. As I matured and came into the natural skeptical age of adolescense, I took my concerns and doubts the Lord and He was gracious enough to provide me with assurances as to His reality and His desire for me to continue following Christ. At the same time I came to realize the evidence concerning the nature of the universe being billions of years old and the reality of evolution is really there. I came to realize also that the scriptures are not perfectly inerrant in all things.

Some of the posters around here think this is untenable. Why trust the scriptures for anything if it isn't perfectly inerrant, they ask. My own thoughts: Show me your evidence for trusting the scritpture and I'll accept it for a trustworthy tho not inerrant bible as you do for an inerrant bible. By faith, I regard it as inerrant for doctrine and practice.
I feel this is the logical way to approach the guidance I have recieved and the facts of which I am aware.

 

[Elena]

From your posts I gather that you do not accept anything as true without first studying it to see if it is true.

EF In terms of science, that would be correct.

I was only interested to see how you came to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God?

EF Jesus as a historical figure is testable and it seems reasonable that he existed. Belief that Jesus is the son of God is not amenable to proof and therefore a matter of faith.

 

[Elena]

So Elena, in your scientific opinion, what event is taking place in Matthew 8:28-32?

EF I don't know, the accounts of the disciples vary in several important details. I assume that Jesus cured a madman, but the exact location seems to be different among the different gospels and the number of people involved also seems to vary. Someone discussed the differences in eyewitness accounts. You've provided a good example.

 

[Steven O. Sawyer]

Originally posted by Peter101:
I don't think this &lt;stick bending by itself experience&gt;is nearly as mysterious as you think. Rather, I think it can be explained by the fact that some potential energy can be stored in the forked stick that then becomes kinetic energy at an unexpected time. That is, the forked stick was storing some energy in much the same way as a spring stores energy. I have tried dowsing my self a few times and although the forked stick sometimes bent downwards, I didn't find anything mysterious about it. Dowsing is an old bit of folklore that dies hard. [/QB]

Oh really... is your "potential/kinetic energy" solution really supposed to impress someone? Oh, yeah, sticks just suddenly decide to bend down all by themselves. You really don't grasp what happened, do you? Or are you in denial? Or perhaps you think I'm lying or grossly exaggerating (I'm not, but I understand skepticism).

Ever been fishing? Ever catch a pretty hefty fish and feel the unmistakable pull on the pole and the downward bend of the pole? When the fish is taken off the pole, the force is removed and the pole returns to normal. But what potential/kinetic forces would actually pull down the end if that same type of event happened on dry land? I'm not talking about a deformation of the materials, I am talking about an tangable STRONG downward PULL on the end... but only as it passes over certain areas as you walk along in your yard as you go/return from your trip. Do you catch invisible bass in your yard? Well that is what my experience was like.

So, please explain.

 

[Steven O. Sawyer]

Originally posted by Paul of Eugene:
Brother Sawyer, thank you for your post. I think your personal testimony is evidence that there is something more than the mere physical out there.

Thank you. As I indicated, it certainly cracked my athiestic philosophy... but not really for the better. Occultic practices lead people away from God's truth, not towards it. I was headed down that path myself contemplating the Eastern Mysticism for years before becoming a Christian... I was becoming a New Age cultist.

After that, the experience by itself is singularly obscure in terms of giving us something to figure out what really happened. Dowsing, if the stories about it are to be trusted, seems to be a good thing rather than a bad thing and certainly the dowsers testimonies don't seem to be of a demonic leaning type of testimony.

It is interresting that the qualifications for determining if something is "good" or "bad" is based on how it affects humans and not at all how God sees the event. Do the ends justify the means? If dowsing is a spiritual manifestation, as I believe it is when the genuine phenomena appears, then there are only two sources - God (and His faithful angels) or the demons. Since God has condemned witchcraft, sorcery, divination, astrology, necromancy, etc. harshly and in no uncertain terms, I am at a loss to understand how you could see this as Godly. So unless someone can come up with a natural explanation, I'll stick with my demonic theory.

Have you ever noticed that people that get really involved in occultic practices often teach the same anti-Christian doctrines: notably reincarnation and no final judgement after death (the spirit continues to evolve)?

So the only thing I grasp from your experience is the thing I said at first - there is more than the mere physical out there.

Yes, and science is incapable of dealing with spiritual realities.

In own spiritual quest God has been real to me and I've seen His hand and His guidance but nothing of that sort. It seems that I experience God's guidance in a way that makes the paranormal completely irrelevant. It would appear that your own testimony is of a similar nature. May God continue to guide you towards the true riches of His spiritual presence.

Thanks again. I have not had any such dramatic spiritual experiences since I have become a Christian and I am personally very skeptical of much of the garbage that passes for Christianity at the hands of Benny Hinn, Paul Croutch, etc. I say this as a brief warning to whomever might read this. In fact, James Randi's book The Faith Healers brings out some very disturbing facts about some of the founders of the "Word of Faith" movement. Randi is an athiest and does not any form of religion, but he is a good investigator of the facts.

 

[Peter101]

&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Oh really... is your "potential/kinetic energy" solution really supposed to impress someone? Oh, yeah, sticks just suddenly decide to bend down all by themselves. You really don't grasp what happened, do you? Or are you in denial? Or perhaps you think I'm lying or grossly exaggerating (I'm not, but I understand skepticism).&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

Oh, I certainly believe that you felt a downward pull on the forked stick. I did also. But did you hold it with one hand or two? I bet you held it with two hands and that each hand held one side of the fork. Isn't that how it happened? What I am saying is that when you hold it that way, it is possible to transfer some energy from your hands to the stick, which becomes a form of spring, and when that energy is released, it produces a downward motion of the stick. If you repeat the procedure and hold it by one hand only, by one side of the fork, you will not get the same result. What appears to be a dramatic pull from an unseen source is in fact an illusion that happens because most people do not understand the physics involved. You fooled yourself but that is not uncommon. When you drive your car and unexpectedly run over a deep dip in the rode, are you surprised when the springs in the car throw the front of the car upwards again when their potential enegy is released? The weight of the car causes the springs to be compressed and afterwards that energy is released somewhat violently upwards. Something similar is happening with the forked stick. But you didn't understand it because it was most likely the first time that you had used a forked stick in that way.

 

[Peter101]

&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;I don't see demons under every bush either, but doesn't your comment speak volumes about how unspiritually discerning and blind we are in our sinful condition? Jesus had no problems identifying demons. Neither apparently did the apostles.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

Well, I agree that my comments MAY speak volumes about how blind we are in our sinful condition. But my remarks are also entirely consistent with the possibility that demons do not exist at all. Can you tell me how you can distinguish between these two possibilities?

 

[Steven O. Sawyer]

Originally posted by Peter101:

Oh, I certainly believe that you felt a downward pull on the forked stick. I did also. But did you hold it with one hand or two? I bet you held it with two hands and that each hand held one side of the fork. Isn't that how it happened? What I am saying is that when you hold it that way, it is possible to transfer some energy from your hands to the stick, which becomes a form of spring, and when that energy is released, it produces a downward motion of the stick. If you repeat the procedure and hold it by one hand only, by one side of the fork, you will not get the same result. What appears to be a dramatic pull from an unseen source is in fact an illusion that happens because most people do not understand the physics involved.

NO! You STILL don't get it!

You are correct that I was holding the forked stick with both hands... but the subtle forces of tension and compression would only have made the extended portion of the stick move as a unit. That is not what happened and that is what I have repeatedly stated did not happen. Maybe I wasn't clear. The END of the stick BENT over... it BOWED like a fishing pole when one catches a large fish on the end... it quite visibly deformed... it twisted the whole branch with such force the bark began coming off from my resistance to the most noticable torque being applied (which only happened in a particular area).

 

[Elena]

NO! You STILL don't get it!

EF Actually, I think we all get it. Here's our basic choice

(1) You held a forked stick and subconciously you caused the stick to bend.

or

(2) Demons bent the stick because locating water gives demons great pleasure.

Hmm, given that (1) is known to occur (even tried it myself last night) and given that dowsing has been scientifically demonstrated to perform at best no better than chance makes demonic possession of water dowsers a less-likely explanation.

 

[john6:63]

Originally posted by Elena:
I assume that Jesus cured a madman

I wouldn’t assume since all three gospels record Jesus’ encounter with a demon-possessed man. All three gospels record the crucifixion of Christ, but do you assume this account as well? I don’t assume I’m going to heaven when I die. I know I’m going to heaven, because of what Christ did for me on the cross and the fact that God raised him from the dead.

the exact location seems to be different among the different gospels and the number of people involved also seems to vary.

The fact that cliffs, tombs and pigs or swine, an unclean animal to the Jews are in all three accounts, reaffirms that they were in a region that was on the other side of the Sea of Galilee; where both the region of Gergesenes and Gadarenes were, which was also considered Gentile Decapolis. The gospels doesn’t name an exact city, just “…the country of…” No contradiction there.

Matthew records two demon-possessed men, while focusing on one of these men’s conversation with Jesus. Mark and Luke focus on a demon-possessed man, possibly because he stood out among the two. He was more obvious. Again, no contradiction here.

In the book of John, he records that after a Roman solider pierces Jesus’ side, blood and water came out. Why did John record blood first, when, from what I’ve read medically, water would’ve preceded the blood? Because the blood was more oblivious than the water.

If these weren’t demon-possessed men, how did they know who Jesus was?

Someone discussed the differences in eyewitness accounts. You've provided a good example.

We need to remember that each gospel will focus on the events pertaining to their audience needs, thus Mark and Luke add events that Matthew does not record. These are not contradictions; rather, extra info given, for a better understanding of the overall picture of what’s happening. One witness isn’t as good as three witnesses.

 

[Steven O. Sawyer]

Originally posted by Elena:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
NO! You STILL don't get it!

EF Actually, I think we all get it. Here's our basic choice

(1) You held a forked stick and subconciously you caused the stick to bend.

or

(2) Demons bent the stick because locating water gives demons great pleasure.

Hmm, given that (1) is known to occur (even tried it myself last night) and given that dowsing has been scientifically demonstrated to perform at best no better than chance makes demonic possession of water dowsers a less-likely explanation. </font>[/QUOTE]Well then try this:
Have an assistant go with you and have them grab the end of the branch while you are pulling up... that might closer aproximate what I experienced. Have them pull down enough that the branch bends like a bow.

Now try to duplicate THAT by yourself with the branch!

And NO, you STILL don't get it!