Another Poll for everyone on the Baptist Board to see what side of the fence youre on

[Johnv]

No one has said that Calvinism's view of election negates a person's need to willingly believe, it only indicates that no one can willingly believe unless they are irresistibly drawn (in the Calvinistic system).

You're thinking linearly. Irresistable grace is not contingent upon a linear timeline. We can't fully understand that, since we're linear beings ourselves.

John Calvin himself says, "No man is excluded from calling upon God, the gate of salvation is set open unto all men: neither is there any other thing which keepeth us back from entering in, save only our own unbelief."

 

[Skandelon]

If you agree with that, then I am at a loss as to what your fighting against. Glad we can agree.

And you accuse me of not knowing the system that I'm debating against? Do I need to go copy and paste a creed for you to read?

Sure, we believe, as you say, "NO MAN CAN COME TO JESUS....except the Father draw that person." After all, how can they believe in one whom they have not heard? But we also believe that when Christ was raised up he "will draw all men to [him]self." Jn 12:32 Thus, the sending of the apostles and the gospel truth into all the world and the inception of the church...

 

[Skandelon]

John Calvin himself says, "No man is excluded from calling upon God, the gate of salvation is set open unto all men: neither is there any other thing which keepeth us back from entering in, save only our own unbelief."

What about man's sin nature? Is that not holding them back? Is that what he means by his "unbelief." The point is that Calvinism doesn't believe men have the ability to leave their unbelief without an effectual call

 

[Johnv]

The point is that Calvinism doesn't believe men have the ability to leave their unbelief without an effectual call

That's what 2 Timothy 1:9 says, when referring to God "who has saved us and called us to a holy life".

 

[Winman]

That's what 2 Timothy 1:9 says, when referring to God "who has saved us and called us to a holy life".

Christ calls all men, but not all men obey and come.

Matt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

I don't care what Calvin or any other man says, Jesus himself showed God calls all men, but not all men obey and come.

Calvinism does not teach this, Calvinism teaches an "effectual calling" (a man made term and doctrine if there ever was one), and only extends this effectual calling to the few elect. Absolutely unscriptural.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Jesus said he would draw all men to him. But Calvinists say God does not know what he is saying, he actually only meant the elect.

So, Almighty God doesn't understand his own words. He could have said I will draw the elect only, but instead misspoke and said all men.

How utterly absurd.

 

[Robert Snow]

And you accuse me of not knowing the system that I'm debating against? Do I need to go copy and paste a creed for you to read?

Sure, we believe, as you say, "NO MAN CAN COME TO JESUS....except the Father draw that person." After all, how can they believe in one whom they have not heard? But we also believe that when Christ was raised up he "will draw all men to [him]self." Jn 12:32 Thus, the sending of the apostles and the gospel truth into all the world and the inception of the church...

Thank you! I was going to respond, but you said it better than I would have.

I believe that the preaching of the Word is the calling today that all men can respond to, if they so choose. I don't hold to the false belief that only a secect few have been elected. I notice that it is only those who feel they are one of the select who believe this.

 

[Johnv]

Calvinism does not teach this...

Not so. In fact, Calvins said "No man is excluded from calling upon God, the gate of salvation is set open unto all men...". The "effectual calling" that you're referring to isn't what's being referred to, and does not negate the fact that salvation is offerred to all.

 

[Winman]

Not so. In fact, Calvins said "No man is excluded from calling upon God, the gate of salvation is set open unto all men...". The "effectual calling" that you're referring to isn't what's being referred to, and does not negate the fact that salvation is offerred to all.

Baloney, it is amazing how a person can deceive themselves. You know as well as I do that Calvinism teaches unsaved unregenerate man is uttery unable to answer this calling. Only God can give them this ability.

So, by your doctrine God is foolish. He calls a man and begs him to come to Christ knowing it is utterly impossible. Or maybe he is not foolish, but ruthless and cruel and mocks unsaved man. He laughs at man saying "come unto me" knowing the man cannot. That is obscene.

 

[Jon-Marc]

Definitely #1 since Giod said that "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Romans 10:13

"Whosoever" means ANYONE--not just a select few that catch God's eye. God also said "There is none that doeth good, no, not one." Romans 3:12

We are not saved because God thought us worth of it. Nor is anyone more worthy than another since NO one is worthy. That's what grace is all about; He saves ANYONE who calls on him in faith and repentence and asks for forgiveness--dedspite the fact that none of them are worthy.

I was saved on May 18, 1963. I was not worthy then and still am not worthy, but God's mercy and grace were extended to this lost sinner when I called on Him after realizing my lost condition.

 

[Rippon]

Christ calls all men, but not all men obey and come.


I don't care what Calvin or any other man says, Jesus himself showed God calls all men, but not all men obey and come.

Calvinism does not teach this, Calvinism teaches an "effectual calling" (a man made term and doctrine if there ever was one), and only extends this effectual calling to the few elect. Absolutely unscriptural.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Jesus said he would draw all men to him. But Calvinists say God does not know what he is saying, he actually only meant the elect.

So, Almighty God doesn't understand his own words. He could have said I will draw the elect only, but instead misspoke and said all men.

Only certain English Bible versions say that all men and drawn. The equivalent is not in the Greek.Instead, all of His own have and shall be drawn to Himself. You need to check out John six for clarification.

And He certainly doesn't call those who live their entire lives out of the reach of the sound of the Gospel of Christ.

 

[Rippon]

So, by your doctrine God is foolish. He calls a man and begs him to come to Christ knowing it is utterly impossible. Or maybe he is not foolish, but ruthless and cruel and mocks unsaved man. He laughs at man saying "come unto me" knowing the man cannot. That is obscene.

You're the one being facetious.

How dare you call God fooish!

How dare you say God is begging.

How dare you say He is ruthless (which means without love).

How dare you say a lot of things that I won't take the time to list.

But I want you to know that attributing any of these and other entirely scurrilous charges against God and claiming that Calvinists adhere to these is reprehensible.

 

[pinoybaptist]

. God has chosen to save a select number of people who he irresistibly draws to Himself while passing by all others who were born without the ability to willingly repent from their sin and be saved, and who will spend eternity burning in a lake of unquenchable fire; all to the praise of God's glorious grace and justice.

I will not vote simply because you make God out to be a monster who owes it to man to redeem him even after it was he, man, who willingly, knowingly, and voluntarily disobeyed God, rendered belief and loyalty to a fellow creature who is the father of lies.

Tell us, do you believe God must redeem and save man after that fact ?
Do you by conviction and in all honesty believe God is under obligation at all in any way shape or form to redeem anyone ?

First you put in print that you do not believe God must have all the glory and honor for anything and everything concerning His creation, now you put God in an obligation box ?

 

[Skandelon]

I will not vote simply because you make God out to be a monster who owes it to man to redeem him even after it was he, man, who willingly, knowingly, and voluntarily disobeyed God, rendered belief and loyalty to a fellow creature who is the father of lies.

Maybe its your doctrine that makes God out to be a monster, because I said nothing about God owing man anything. I just stated the hard facts.
While I admittedly, with a purpose (from another thread), didn't sugar coat the Calvinistic perspective, I maintain that it is accurate. Even some of your own admit that:

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif]Arthur Pink states, [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif]“If then God has foreordained whatsoever comes to pass then He must have decreed that vast numbers of human beings should pass out of this world unsaved to suffer eternally in the Lake of Fire. Admitting the general premise, is not the specific conclusion inevitable?” (p. 84). [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

Tell us, do you believe God must redeem and save man after that fact ?Do you by conviction and in all honesty believe God is under obligation at all in any way shape or form to redeem anyone ?

Nope, he could have damned us all to hell. He owes us nothing. This is not about what God could of done, its about what our systems believe and teach, period. For me, its not about what I feel is just or unjust of God. I believed and taught Calvinism when I felt that was what the scripture taught, because I want to be faithful to truth. I no longer believe that is what scripture teaches based upon my understanding of the historical context during the days of the NT with the Judicial Hardening of the Jews.

First you put in print that you do not believe God must have all the glory and honor for anything and everything concerning His creation, now you put God in an obligation box ?

First, I proved through scripture that God gives honor to men and commands us to give honor to each other, thus showing that the belief that "ALL" HONOR only goes to God is unbiblical, as pious as it may sound.

Second, there is no such obligation intended or implied. You have read that into the text.

 

[SaggyWoman]

Seriously?

 

[kyredneck]

Hey Skandy, if the two polls are combined the monergists still outnumber the synergists, heheh.

 

[Skandelon]

Hey Skandy, if the two polls are combined the monergists still outnumber the synergists, heheh.

Well, if we are running our theology here like the government runs our country, then that must mean you guys are right.

We'll get you in the next election! [pun intended] :laugh:

 

[Winman]

I don't understand how these polls prove anything. In the first poll approximately 4 to 1 believe in Monergism, but in this poll approximately 4 to 1 believe sinful men have the ability to willingly repent and be saved.

How should that be interpreted?

 

[kyredneck]

Brother Winman, I probably won't sleep over eight hours tonight worrying about it.

(even though this poll was blantantly biased)

 

[Winman]

Brother Winman, I probably won't sleep over eight hours tonight worrying about it.

(even though this poll was blantantly biased)

I won't lose sleep either, but I imagine that many here voted on both polls (I did) and the results don't make much sense.

 

[kyredneck]

There may still yet be several to vote Winman. and who knows, you free willers may demand a 'recount'!

...heheh, it ain't over with til' the overweight lady sings......