Another Question for Calvinists

[webdog]

God has the full power to save all of them, but out of some lofty ideal of free will, God would rather see them burn in hell.

I agree. But what situation is God just in...the one where He created them without the possibility of being saved, and condemning them based on their actions, or creating them with the possibility to be saved, and condemning them for their actions? Calvinism negates justice alltogether. Is man more "just" than God?

 

[Andy T.]

I agree. But what situation is God just in...the one where He created them without the possibility of being saved, and condemning them based on their actions, or creating them with the possibility to be saved, and condemning them for their actions? Calvinism negates justice alltogether. Is man more "just" than God?

It still makes no difference. Before time began, before He created the world, God knew he was going to create people and then watch them go to hell. There was no "possibility" or probability about it. In the mind of God it was a fait accompli. He knew that when He pulled the trigger to create, people were going to hell. So unloving of him to do such a thing!

 

[webdog]

It still makes no difference. Before time began, before He created the world, God knew he was going to create people and then watch them go to hell. There was no "possibility" or probability about it. In the mind of God it was a fait accompli. He knew that when He pulled the trigger to create, people were going to hell. So unloving of him to do such a thing!

Justice makes no difference? The "just" God mentioned throughout the Bible makes no difference? How can man's justice system be more just than God's?

As a calvinist, you have to look at everything within man's time. You stated that when He created man...He knew people were going to Hell. You are correct...to a certain degree. He knew because He is omnipresent / omnitemporal, not because He looked into the future, or outright declaring Joe Shmo goes to Hell while Jane Schmo goes to Heaven. 2Pet. 3:9 shows He desires that NOBODY goes to hell.

 

[Andy T.]

Justice makes no difference? The "just" God mentioned throughout the Bible makes no difference? How can man's justice system be more just than God's?

As a calvinist, you have to look at everything within man's time. You stated that when He created man...He knew people were going to Hell. You are correct...to a certain degree. He knew because He is omnipresent / omnitemporal, not because He looked into the future, or outright declaring Joe Shmo goes to Hell while Jane Schmo goes to Heaven. 2Pet. 3:9 shows He desires that NOBODY goes to hell.

God is certainly just - He doesn't need your help. Everyone who goes to hell deserves to be there. That we both agree on.

The omnitemporal / outside of time issue makes no difference here. Word it this way if you like: Because of God creating the world, He saw people in hell. If he didn't want people in hell, then he shouldn't have created the world.

 

[drfuss]

canadyjd
"You are praying for God to show mercy on your children, just as I am."

The subject here is praying for your children for their salvation. When you pray for God to show mercy for a son, just what do your want God to do in terms of his salvation?

Since you believe that the election list was established in the beginning and it is unconditionally established, just what do you pray for God to do concerning their salvation?

npetreley writes:
"Do you think that Calvinists simply stop praying for their children because they know that their fate is in God's hands and it is already decided?"

Why continuing praying for their salvation since their salvation fate is already decided? Again, just what do you pray for God to do in terms of their salvation?

 

[Andy T.]

canadyjd
"You are praying for God to show mercy on your children, just as I am."

The subject here is praying for your children for their salvation. When you pray for God to show mercy for a son, just what do your want God to do in terms of his salvation?

Since you believe that the election list was established in the beginning and it is unconditionally established, just what do you pray for God to do concerning their salvation?

npetreley writes:
"Do you think that Calvinists simply stop praying for their children because they know that their fate is in God's hands and it is already decided?"

Why continuing praying for their salvation since their salvation fate is already decided? Again, just what do you pray for God to do in terms of their salvation?

Then why pray for anything at all, since God already knows what He's going to do and how it's all going to turn out? You must think that God does not have full knowledge or control of the future. That would put you in the Open Theist camp. Not a good place to be.

 

[canadyjd]

The subject here is praying for your children for their salvation. When you pray for God to show mercy for a son, just what do your want God to do in terms of his salvation?

I am praying that God will change their natures by Holy Spirit, that He will convict them of the truth of Jesus Christ, that He will bring them to repentance and faith, that He will preserve them and protect them from Satan and the world and their own sin, that He will raise them up on that final day and bring them into heaven to live forever in His presence.

I am praying that God will intervene in their lives, against their nature and human will, and bring them to salvation.

As far as the "salvation list" that God created before the foundation of the world, He hasn't seen fit to show it to me as of yet, therefore, I will hope and pray for everyone He puts on my heart to pray for, including my children, and there is no contradiction in doing so.

peace to youraying:

 

[J.D.]

Prayer is a sincere, sensible, affectionate pouring out of the heart or soul to God, through Christ, in the strength and assistance of the Holy Spirit, for such things as God hath promised, or according to the Word, for the good of the church, with submission, in faith, to the will of God.

....Bunyan

 

[drfuss]

Andy T. writes:
"Then why pray for anything at all, since God already knows what He's going to do and how it's all going to turn out? You must think that God does not have full knowledge or control of the future."

Of course God has full knowledge and control of the future. We should pray for our loved ones and children concerning their: salvation, healing, spiritual growth, etc. Prayer and praise have always been vital parts of the christian life.

The Calvinists are the ones that say the salvation list was established from the beginning and cannot be changed. Calvinists praying for the salvation of their children are, in effect, asking God to change the list if their children are not on the list.

canadyjd writes:
"I am praying that God will change their natures by Holy Spirit, that He will convict them of the truth of Jesus Christ, that He will bring them to repentance and faith, that He will preserve them and protect them from Satan and the world and their own sin, that He will raise them up on that final day and bring them into heaven to live forever in His presence.

I am praying that God will intervene in their lives, against their nature and human will, and bring them to salvation.

As far as the "salvation list" that God created before the foundation of the world, He hasn't seen fit to show it to me as of yet, therefore, I will hope and pray for everyone He puts on my heart to pray for, including my children, and there is no contradiction in doing so."

It sounds to me like you are praying for God to backfit the election lists if your children are not on it. Apparently, Calvinists believe one thing, but pray another. If you don't think this is a contradiction, then there is no purpose in discussing this any further.

Grace and Peace to you,

drfuss signing off.

 

[reformedbeliever]

drfuss says;
It sounds to me like you are praying for God to backfit the election lists if your children are not on it. Apparently, Calvinists believe one thing, but pray another. If you don't think this is a contradiction, then there is no purpose in discussing this any further.

Grace and Peace to you,

drfuss signing off.[/quote]

Hello drfuss. May I interject? We (calvinist) believe that God not only ordained the future, but also ordained the prayers of believers to be the tools in which He would use to accomplish His purposes. In other words.... God elected people in eternity past because he ordained in eternity past that He would do so using the prayers of believers that He also ordained in eternity past.

I remember you asking questions about calvinist in a thread a while back. You asked the question and I think I assumed that you knew what calvinist believed, and I was maybe a little defensive to your question. My question now is this. You seem to know what calvinist believe... or at least seem to have an opinion of what they believe already made up in your mind. Do you really want to know what calvinist believe or are you just asking these questions to challenge what you think they believe? No animosity at all....... just honest question. Grace and peace

 

[Andy T.]

drfuss, it sounds like you also want to backfit the things that God has already put in place, namely the future. So me praying for someone's salvation is no different than you doing so, unless you believe God changes his mind based on our wishes.

 

[drfuss]

reformedbeliever writes:
"Hello drfuss. May I interject? We (calvinist) believe that God not only ordained the future, but also ordained the prayers of believers to be the tools in which He would use to accomplish His purposes. In other words.... God elected people in eternity past because he ordained in eternity past that He would do so using the prayers of believers that He also ordained in eternity past."

Are you saying that God considered the prayers of today in developing the election list in the beginning?

reformedbeliever writes:
"I remember you asking questions about calvinist in a thread a while back. You asked the question and I think I assumed that you knew what calvinist believed, and I was maybe a little defensive to your question. My question now is this. You seem to know what calvinist believe... or at least seem to have an opinion of what they believe already made up in your mind. Do you really want to know what calvinist believe or are you just asking these questions to challenge what you think they believe? No animosity at all....... just honest question. Grace and peace"

As indicated in my initial posts, I am not interested in a debate. I am curious about how Calvinists handle prayer for their unsaved children. I understand the five points of Calvinism and how they tie together. How those beliefs apply to real life situations is my interest here.

 

[npetreley]

The Calvinists are the ones that say the salvation list was established from the beginning and cannot be changed. Calvinists praying for the salvation of their children are, in effect, asking God to change the list if their children are not on the list.

I agree with that. But we don't know if our children are "on the list" or "off the list", so we can't possibly know if we're asking God to do something He does not plan to do. Here's a much more important part of prayer than any request we make, whether it is about our children or anything else. It is what Jesus taught us to pray: "Thy will be done".

Even free-willers know that when we make a request, sometimes God's answer is "no". So I don't see what the issue is here. Do free-willers simply not pray because it's possible the answer will be "no"?

 

[reformedbeliever]

drfuss asks;
Are you saying that God considered the prayers of today in developing the election list in the beginning?

I'm saying that God decreed that people whom God has decreed to be His people, will pray prayers that are tools of which He uses to accomplish His purposes. Those prayers God also decreed. He did not have to'"consider" anything man does to accomplish salvation. Our prayers do not save, only Jesus' sacrifice and the regenerating power of Holy Spirit. God in eternity past was present with our prayers of today and tomorrow. I belive that all we do is decreed by God... carefully planned to make all things work out for the good of those who love Him, those who are called according to His purpose. I believe that *all* things work together for the good, not all things are good, but they work out to be good. And no, God is not the author of sin.

As indicated in my initial posts, I am not interested in a debate. I am curious about how Calvinists handle prayer for their unsaved children. I understand the five points of Calvinism and how they tie together. How those beliefs apply to real life situations is my interest here.

Calvinist believe that they can pray to God.... and that we should be people of prayer (God commands it) and that when we pray to God to change the very hearts of our children... that He will do just that. Holy Spirit will come and change their nature to fall in love with Jesus. He will violate their will that is in bondage to sin, and change it to a will that can respond to Jesus. They must respond. Grace and peace

 

[Andy T.]

Good point, Nicholas. Why do non-C's pray to God when there is a possibility that the answer is "No" and that God already knows the answer before we even pray?

 

[drfuss]

drfuss asks;
Are you saying that God considered the prayers of today in developing the election list in the beginning?

I'm saying that God decreed that people whom God has decreed to be His people, will pray prayers that are tools of which He uses to accomplish His purposes. Those prayers God also decreed. He did not have to'"consider" anything man does to accomplish salvation. Our prayers do not save, only Jesus' sacrifice and the regenerating power of Holy Spirit. God in eternity past was present with our prayers of today and tomorrow. I belive that all we do is decreed by God... carefully planned to make all things work out for the good of those who love Him, those who are called according to His purpose. I believe that *all* things work together for the good, not all things are good, but they work out to be good. And no, God is not the author of sin.

There are many good words in your answer. However, I don't know if it was a yes or no. Please answer yes or no.
Thank you.




As indicated in my initial posts, I am not interested in a debate. I am curious about how Calvinists handle prayer for their unsaved children. I understand the five points of Calvinism and how they tie together. How those beliefs apply to real life situations is my interest here.

Calvinist believe that they can pray to God.... and that we should be people of prayer (God commands it) and that when we pray to God to change the very hearts of our children... that He will do just that. Holy Spirit will come and change their nature to fall in love with Jesus. He will violate their will that is in bondage to sin, and change it to a will that can respond to Jesus. They must respond. Grace and peace

The above sounds like God must do what you ask. Do you really mean that?

 

[whatever]

Jesus died for ALL sin.

Earlier you said "there is only one sin that is not forgiven by the cross". So which is it? I clearly used to sin by repeatedly rejecting the Spirit so how can that sin be forgiven if not by the cross?

So they tell people to DO what they cannot, according to Calvin, DO?

Of course. The question is, why can't they repent and believe? The answer is, because they would rather keep their sin. The fault is their own, not God's.

Calvinists would classify this as "saving yourself," would they not?

Of course not, no more than Arminians would.

 

[reformedbeliever]

The above sounds like God must do what you ask. Do you really mean that?

After reading what I wrote, it does seem to say that. I didn't communicate well what I meant. What I meant is that if it is God's will, then He will change the hearts of our children. Only if it is His will. We of course pray that His will be done. Do you pray any other way?

drfuss says;
Please answer yes or no.

I didn't realize I was in court. :laugh: I believe I did answer you. I said that God does not have to consider anything man does in order to save him. That would be a no... in the context you put the question.
I said that God decreed what men would pray. If what we pray is what God decreed.... then in that context it would be a yes. Hope this clarifys it as clear as mud for you. :laugh: I'm not much of a writer... wish I could articulate what my thoughts are better for you. Grace and peace

 

[drfuss]

Quote:
Originally Posted by drfuss
The above sounds like God must do what you ask. Do you really mean that?

reformedbeliever writes:
After reading what I wrote, it does seem to say that. I didn't communicate well what I meant. What I meant is that if it is God's will, then He will change the hearts of our children. Only if it is His will. We of course pray that His will be done. Do you pray any other way?

I pray the same way you do. You almost sounded like the "name it, claim it" type. I couldn't believe you were. That was the reason I asked.

 

[drfuss]

The question was:

Are you saying that God considered the prayers of today in developing the election list in the beginning?

drfuss says;
Please answer yes or no.

reformedbeliever writes:
"I didn't realize I was in court. :laugh: I believe I did answer you. I said that God does not have to consider anything man does in order to save him. That would be a no... in the context you put the question.
I said that God decreed what men would pray. If what we pray is what God decreed.... then in that context it would be a yes. Hope this clarifys it as clear as mud for you. :laugh: I'm not much of a writer... wish I could articulate what my thoughts are better for you. Grace and peace."

I wasn't trying to be difficult in asking for a yes or no answer. As indicated above, your answer is no, but yes in terms of praying, I think. This looks like a gray area, i.e. yes and no..

Below are some of my thoughts as of now.

Concerning the answer being no to the question:

My orginial post assumed the answer is no and asked why then pray for the unsaved. In support of the no answer, I don't know, off hand, where in the N. T. we are to pray for the salvation of another person. I haven't looked into this, but I assume someone will tell us if there is. It still is unclear to me why we should prayer for the unsaved if we believe the answer is no. Perhaps it makes people feel better. Could unconditional election and praying for our unsaved loved ones be one of those mysteries we should take by faith?

Concerning the answer being yes to the question:

If our prayers today do affect the election list in the beginning, then unconditional election is no longer unconditional. This then becomes similiar to, if not the same as, what non-calvinist believe concerning election. The real difference between Calvinist and Non-calvinists would be terminology, i.e. a play on words.


I believe one of the difficulties here is that God is not time limited as we are. God is everywhere all the time and knows all things regardless of the time frame. Our minds have difficulty in grasping this, particularily in terms of election. Perhaps this is why it is, as you say, "clear as mud".

Grace and Peace,

drfuss