Another question for Calvinists

[charles_creech78]

Well, that is a problem. According to many here, if God is not in complete and absolute control of everything that happens, then he is not God. Some call these Hyper-Calvinists.

Now to these people (HC), if God did not intend man to sin it would be a huge surprise if they did, and if he did intend man to sin there is no reason to be grieved when men did exactly what God intended them to do.

So, do you admit men can act independently of God? Are you saying God is not in complete control?

I am not saying God is not in complete control, I believe he is, but I do not believe he ever intended man to sin.

Now, doesn't my position seem like a contradiction?

And that is what this thread is truly about.

Let me ask all of you this even you Winman! You believe God is in complete control right? So did he know from the beginning of time that man was going to sin? He made a devil and a tree of knowledge of good and evil.
God knows what good and evil is and he made a tree of good and evil! Think about it. He set that out in the garden and told all of us not to eat it. We all did. Are you saying God a all wise and living God could not determine if he set a tree of good and evil in the garden with us that we would not eat there of? Not only that but a devil also.
I guess the way I see some of you looking at it is that he was hoping we would not eat of it. But we all did! He also set a tree of life in the mist of it and hoped also that each of us would need a savior! We can't say he determined all of this or knew it.
Blindly a all wise and living God laid this all out hoping and not knowing what his his creation would do! Let me ask all of you that have children! We know when they get to that age that they will sin against God right! How do we know that? Because the word of God tells us that we have all sinned and come short of his glory. We can't stop them from sinning. We know they will! God knows they will!
But did any of you that have a baby or make a baby make them to sin? Or raise them to sin? No! We knew. Just like God knows. Why? Because we all eat from that tree of knowledge of good and evil. Would it grieve you as a dad or mother if you see your child sin against God?
If something that came from you that you gave birth to or became a father of and it became evil killing and destroying and always evil in it heart. Would you not want to repent because you made such a creator?
Don't say you did not know that he or she would not sin. Because you did! But the point is you never made them to turn out that way and God did not make us to turn out that way. God knows all things and is a wise and just God and not a man in this room or women in this room will ever change my mind on that .God bless.

 

[Robert Snow]

I would compare it to me as a father with my own children. Right now they are young: 6yrs, 5yrs, and 3 months old. They bring me great joy in my life. However, I know that somewhere down the line they will do something that will disappoint me because all kids make mistakes. The fact that I know that this will occur won't take away my grief or disappointment in the moment.

Good analogy. However, I will assume you don't want your children to do things that are wrong and grieve you.

The Calvinist's view is that not only did God know we would sin, but that He wants us to sin so he can get glory. I find this impossible to accept.

Back to your analogy. To apply the Calvinist belief to what you have said, you would have to deliberately put your children in a bad position, such as giving them alcohol and tobacco or even drugs at a young age so you can later deliver them from this evil so you will be admired for saving them from their addictions. To me this is sick!

 

[StefanM]

The Calvinist's view is that not only did God know we would sin, but that He wants us to sin so he can get glory. I find this impossible to accept.

If one recognizes God's foreknowledge, it is apparent that God clearly desired (on some level) to allow sin in the world (permissive will).

This is a problem for all theological systems, not just Calvinism.

 

[webdog]

If one recognizes God's foreknowledge, it is apparent that God clearly desired (on some level) to allow sin in the world (permissive will).

This is a problem for all theological systems, not just Calvinism.

It's only a problem in a linear fashion.

 

[annsni]

It's only a problem in a linear fashion.

I agree. But when you trust God, it's not really much of a problem.

 

[quantumfaith]

If one recognizes God's foreknowledge, it is apparent that God clearly desired (on some level) to allow sin in the world (permissive will).

This is a problem for all theological systems, not just Calvinism.

Ditto, an antimony for both Cals and Non-Cals.

 

[quantumfaith]

If one recognizes God's foreknowledge, it is apparent that God clearly desired (on some level) to allow sin in the world (permissive will).

This is a problem for all theological systems, not just Calvinism.

My question is, God being omniscient, knowing precisely what man would do, why does that mean that He "desired" it?

If you know (without any reasonable doubt) that your children are going to partake in certain things like underage drinking etc., just because you are "certain" of it, and you know the temptation is there, does that mean you desire it?

 

[glfredrick]

Good analogy. However, I will assume you don't want your children to do things that are wrong and grieve you.

The Calvinist's view is that not only did God know we would sin, but that He wants us to sin so he can get glory. I find this impossible to accept.

Back to your analogy. To apply the Calvinist belief to what you have said, you would have to deliberately put your children in a bad position, such as giving them alcohol and tobacco or even drugs at a young age so you can later deliver them from this evil so you will be admired for saving them from their addictions. To me this is sick!

The only way you can say this is if you make "evil" to be something of substance, and also if you plant heretical statements into the mouth (and Word) of God.

Is "evil" something?

Is God evil? I'm a committed Reformed theologian and I don't think so...

 

[MB]

If one recognizes God's foreknowledge, it is apparent that God clearly desired (on some level) to allow sin in the world (permissive will).

This is a problem for all theological systems, not just Calvinism.

It's not a problem when you understand that with out willingness there is no demonstration of love for Christ Jesus.

2Co 8:12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.

And there is no will involved when there is no choice. The tree of knowledge was that choice for Adam to either eat the fruit and sin or not eat and be good. The same is still true, we either abstain from sin or we do good. It's a choice. Rebellion is always a choice. It isn't something we have to do it's something we do because we choose to. Being saved only happens when we give up the rebellion.
MB

 

[jbh28]

Good analogy. However, I will assume you don't want your children to do things that are wrong and grieve you.

The Calvinist's view is that not only did God know we would sin, but that He wants us to sin so he can get glory. I find this impossible to accept.

Back to your analogy. To apply the Calvinist belief to what you have said, you would have to deliberately put your children in a bad position, such as giving them alcohol and tobacco or even drugs at a young age so you can later deliver them from this evil so you will be admired for saving them from their addictions. To me this is sick!

No, because then you have God tempting man and the Bible is clear that God doesn't temp man. I don't believe any Calvinist here believes that God temps man. Now, did God desire for man to sin against him? yes and no.

The no part
God has said that he want's man to obey. There is nothing in the Bible that says that God wants man to disobey. So I would say no, God doesn't desire man to sin against him.

The yes part
God has allowed sin to enter into the world. Unless one thinks that God is unable to control sin, then to some extent God desired to allow it to happen.

Did God allow sin so he could show mercy? Sure. This doesn't mean that God tempted man to sin. Each man(or woman) sins on their own will. They do it because they want to. God doesn't force anyone to sin.

To be totally honest, I don't understand it all. Again with the problem of evil. God is good, God is great, evil exists. I don't think we will ever understand the answer here on earth.

 

[StefanM]

It's only a problem in a linear fashion.

Could you explain a bit further? I'm not sure I follow you.

 

[StefanM]

My question is, God being omniscient, knowing precisely what man would do, why does that mean that He "desired" it?

If you know (without any reasonable doubt) that your children are going to partake in certain things like underage drinking etc., just because you are "certain" of it, and you know the temptation is there, does that mean you desire it?

The difference is that God had the sovereign power to prevent the circumstances. God could clearly have created a scenario in which sin was not possible. Humans do not have that kind of power over their children.

 

[StefanM]

It's not a problem when you understand that with out willingness there is no demonstration of love for Christ Jesus.

2Co 8:12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.

And there is no will involved when there is no choice. The tree of knowledge was that choice for Adam to either eat the fruit and sin or not eat and be good. The same is still true, we either abstain from sin or we do good. It's a choice. Rebellion is always a choice. It isn't something we have to do it's something we do because we choose to. Being saved only happens when we give up the rebellion.
MB

I understand that sin is volitional, but I'm not sure how this fact solves the issue at hand.

 

[Winman]

It's only a problem in a linear fashion.

How about a circle?

I'm not sure, but you may be onto what I have been trying to demonstrate.

 

[Luke2427]

"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."

If God determines every event that ever occurs as most Calvinists believe, why would he do something that grieves him at his own heart? And why would he ever repent of something he had determined? If he determined that sin would enter the world, then why would it grieve him, and why would he repent when his very will came to pass?

I will wait a bit before I respond to this, I want to see what Cals and DoGs have to say. Non-Cals are welcome to give their opinions as well.

Why would you conclude that God would not will something that would grieve him??

Do you not think that Calvary grieved the heart of God?

Did God not will Calvary?

I am fixing to go to the gym. The idea grieves me but it is my will to do it nonetheless.

Why do we and why would God will something that grieves?

For the greater good.

The greatest good in the universe is the glory of God.

By enduring grief God accomplishes the greatest good in the universe- he glorifies himself.

 

[Winman]

Why would you conclude that God would not will something that would grieve him??

Do you not think that Calvary grieved the heart of God?

Did God not will Calvary?

I am fixing to go to the gym. The idea grieves me but it is my will to do it nonetheless.

Why do we and why would God will something that grieves?

For the greater good.

The greatest good in the universe is the glory of God.

By enduring grief God accomplishes the greatest good in the universe- he glorifies himself.

This is what I have been trying to say and show. The scriptures say God was pleased to send Jesus to the cross, but Jesus was grieved.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

God and Jesus are one. God was pleased, Jesus was grieved.

This appears to be a contradiction, but it cannot be.

 

[quantumfaith]

The difference is that God had the sovereign power to prevent the circumstances. God could clearly have created a scenario in which sin was not possible. Humans do not have that kind of power over their children.

Agreed, sort of. But why not create without the potentiality of sin, the "reformed" proponent argues it is for God's glory, the non-reformed argues it is for creation to have some degree of free will (not libertarian). Is this an accurate reflection of the divide?

 

[quantumfaith]

Why would you conclude that God would not will something that would grieve him??

Do you not think that Calvary grieved the heart of God?

Did God not will Calvary?

I am fixing to go to the gym. The idea grieves me but it is my will to do it nonetheless.

Why do we and why would God will something that grieves?

For the greater good.

The greatest good in the universe is the glory of God.

By enduring grief God accomplishes the greatest good in the universe- he glorifies himself.

"fixing to" ??? I thought that was only spoken in Alabama.

Luke, when we say God was "grieved", are we being anthropomorphic. Is God capable of being grieved as we "shallowly" know grief? Just a question, not being snarky.

 

[preacher4truth]

All this is is winman trying to prove that God was surprised by the outcome, as he says God doesn't know things until they happen, which we all know is erroneous.

I see Holy God showing Holy displeasure for man and his wicked ways. A warning to all of us.

 

[Luke2427]

"fixing to" ??? I thought that was only spoken in Alabama.

Luke, when we say God was "grieved", are we being anthropomorphic. Is God capable of being grieved as we "shallowly" know grief? Just a question, not being snarky.

No, we say it here in Mississippi as well. :wavey:

I don't know.

God is capable of being pleased and angered in a real, not anthropomorphic, way.

I can see no reason to assume that he can only be grieved in a semantic sense.

Sin grieves him- but he willed that sin exist because he is willing to be grieved for the greater good.

Christ was certainly grieved in Gethsemane but he was willing to endure the grief for the greater good- that being to do the will of Him who sent him and to lavish unworthy creatures like you and me in infinite divine love.

This love, BTW, could NOT be displayed without sin.

God is and always has been sovereign over all that happens- nothing happens apart from the decree of God.

No good, no evil that God did not intend.

But he cannot be charged with evil because his motive was pure for bringing it to pass.

Motive is everything.

I can kill a man in his home surrounded by his family and I am a murderer.

I can kill the same man just as violently on the battlefield fighting for my country and I am a hero.

MOTIVE makes the difference between the deed being murder and chivalry.

God's MOTIVE for bringing evil to pass was grand and glorious. His motive was to glorify Jesus and be infinitely gracious to you and I.