Another reason to homeschool

[Don]

jaigner,
Here's where your argument may be failing: You have the homeschooled perspective because you were homeschooled.

Where does your public school perspective come from?

I look at Thinkingstuff's post, and I thought I was reading about myself. I have a mild deformity (cleft lip); I was already having to fight for social status harder than others because I was considered "ugly" (it took me many years to realize I wasn't (well, not totally ugly, anyway)...and I've even gotten free ice cream at a Braum's once because the young lady thought I was Robert DeNiro. (sorry about the bragging!)

My wife and I have homeschooled our children since our oldest was in 2nd grade; the girl is now 23. My younger 3 have never been in a public school. I can tell you that my children, and the other home-schooled children of the churches we've attended over the last 15 years, have never had problems engaging with the public.

What's your public school experience? Use that to contrast with your homeschool experience, and use that contrast to support your "interaction/engagement" statements.

If you don't have public school experience, then you have to rely on people like Gina, who are teachers; or you could go down to your local public school and ask to sit in on classes as a concerned parent/citizen and provide your observations. OR, you could use statistical, anectdotal, or other studies to support your position.

But so far, all I'm hearing is your opinion--which is valid, but opinions are like armpits: everyone has two, and some smell worse than others.

 

[jaigner]

If you don't have public school experience, then you have to rely on people like Gina, who are teachers; or you could go down to your local public school and ask to sit in on classes as a concerned parent/citizen and provide your observations. OR, you could use statistical, anectdotal, or other studies to support your position.

Hi Don. Thank you for your courteous and challenging response.

Actually, I am a teacher. I teach public elementary school. There are TONS of problems with the education system, and I'm not going to defend it at many points, although good teachers are some of the most wonderful, dedicated people I know and fight against nearly impossible

I teach because I enjoy it, am good with young children, and strongly believe in the power and value of the arts (I teach music). I also do it because I feel like, as a Christian, I should be able to engage and interact positively in culture as a means of furthering the Kingdom. Small children are a good place to begin.

My main issues with homeschooling, which in no way match or exceed the issues I have with public education, are from those who believe separation to an extreme degree is morally necessary. Many of these result in raising children that, while many are very gifted, lack an ability to actually engage culture in a real and meaningful way. These range from the hyper-conservative, Vision Forum type of homeschoolers to those who are more "normal."

The other real issue I have is that there is the element of perfectionism that runs rampant through the homeschooling community which produces bitter, depressed children that have life-long issues. Not that this doesn't happen with more traditionally-schooled kids, but it's huge in a movement that essentially turns kids into little idols for their parents.

That being said, if I ever have kids, homeschooling will be a viable option, as my wife and I were both homeschooled and know the potential pitfalls.

I also know, as a teacher and having had siblings go through public school, that it is quite possible for students to gain an excellent education in the public school system and who are well-trained to engage culture as Kingdom people. Generally, these are the students who come from families that encourage them to both those directions.

 

[jaigner]

I agree with the OP view. I heard it put this way by Vodi Bachman (sp?) "If you keep sending your kids to Ceaser to be educated, don't be surprised if they come home as Romans."

Voddie Baucham has some very disturbing views on parenting and schooling in general that are in line with and endorsed by the Vision Forum homeschooling wackos. I would strongly examine any of his teachings on the subject.

There are much better opinions on the subject on both sides of the issue.

 

[Don]

Hi Don. Thank you for your courteous and challenging response.

Actually, I am a teacher. I teach public elementary school. There are TONS of problems with the education system, and I'm not going to defend it at many points, although good teachers are some of the most wonderful, dedicated people I know and fight against nearly impossible

Thanks for the information; changes how others view your posts.

I teach because I enjoy it, am good with young children, and strongly believe in the power and value of the arts (I teach music). I also do it because I feel like, as a Christian, I should be able to engage and interact positively in culture as a means of furthering the Kingdom. Small children are a good place to begin.

I enjoy teaching myself; I've done it two different stints, 3 years each, as a military instructor. My current plan is to work on my PhD in Educational Leadership; we'll see how things turn out.

My main issues with homeschooling, which in no way match or exceed the issues I have with public education, are from those who believe separation to an extreme degree is morally necessary. Many of these result in raising children that, while many are very gifted, lack an ability to actually engage culture in a real and meaningful way. These range from the hyper-conservative, Vision Forum type of homeschoolers to those who are more "normal."

The other real issue I have is that there is the element of perfectionism that runs rampant through the homeschooling community which produces bitter, depressed children that have life-long issues. Not that this doesn't happen with more traditionally-schooled kids, but it's huge in a movement that essentially turns kids into little idols for their parents.

I'm sorry - I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. "Element of perfectionism"? "Many...result in raising children that...lack an ability to actually engage culture"?

Is it possible that perhaps you're generalizing a little?

That being said, if I ever have kids, homeschooling will be a viable option, as my wife and I were both homeschooled and know the potential pitfalls.

I also know, as a teacher and having had siblings go through public school, that it is quite possible for students to gain an excellent education in the public school system and who are well-trained to engage culture as Kingdom people. Generally, these are the students who come from families that encourage them to both those directions.

I humbly submit that those students are from families where the parents remain engaged with their children.

I recently saw a story somewhere about a teacher that called a parent because the child was out of control and wouldn't listen to the teacher; the parent was quite put out, and informed the teacher that during the time the child was in school, the child was the teacher's responsibility, and please quit bothering the parent.

That is the type of things that I will focus my educational instruction/leadership career on: re-engaging the parents in the growth and well-being of their children.

 

[jaigner]

I'm sorry - I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. "Element of perfectionism"? "Many...result in raising children that...lack an ability to actually engage culture"?

Is it possible that perhaps you're generalizing a little?

It's definitely not all, but it's widespread where I grew up. Children that are pushed and pushed and pushed by their parents and then later in their life suffer extreme consequences from it. Perfectionism is almost a disease when it's so ingrained. Many of them, as well, are so bound in their own little cocoons that when they're out, they can barely function in a society in which they're called to further the Kingdom.

Not all by any stretch, but, in my own experience, many.

I humbly submit that those students are from families where the parents remain engaged with their children.

I recently saw a story somewhere about a teacher that called a parent because the child was out of control and wouldn't listen to the teacher; the parent was quite put out, and informed the teacher that during the time the child was in school, the child was the teacher's responsibility, and please quit bothering the parent.

This is absolutely correct.

Regarding behavior, what you've heard is accurate. If the parent is not so blunt, they often will only pacify the teacher instead of actually dealing with the issue.

Most, however, do their best. It's not always good enough, but they try.

That is the type of things that I will focus my educational instruction/leadership career on: re-engaging the parents in the growth and well-being of their children.[/QUOTE]

 

[Don]

It's definitely not all, but it's widespread where I grew up. Children that are pushed and pushed and pushed by their parents and then later in their life suffer extreme consequences from it. Perfectionism is almost a disease when it's so ingrained. Many of them, as well, are so bound in their own little cocoons that when they're out, they can barely function in a society in which they're called to further the Kingdom.

Not all by any stretch, but, in my own experience, many.

The problem you reference is not limited to homeschooled students; I refer to "Why Chinese Mothers are Superior."

 

[sunniemom]

Both ways

The bottom line is that we can't have it both ways. Either school is solely for academics in which sterile bits of information are transmitted in a vacuum- or it is a primary aspect of molding a child's character and worldview.

If a child is in a public school with unregenerate teachers molding their characters and influencing their outlook on the world, there's a serious problem, as this flies in the face of Biblical principles regarding parenting. If their closest companions are also unregenerate, then you have verses regarding foolish companions and evil communications to deal with. Are our kids in PS walking in the counsel of the unGodly? Standing in the way of sinners? Sitting in the seat of the scornful?

From all the textbooks I've read and classes I've attended, the short answer is "Yes". Remember Lot? 2 Pet. 2:8?

The evangelistic paradigm was disciples who were grown men that spent time getting grounded before being sent out by twos. So many Christian parents send their young children to school, expecting them to negotiate the false teaching and a perverted culture, and the kids have no spiritual weapons of warfare because they themselves are not saved, and if they are, they aren't grounded and developmentally mature. If they are saved and grounded, do they have a partner for support? Have they even started shaving yet?

Kids are supposed to be protected and nurtured according to the Bible (Deut. 6:7; 11:19, Eph. 6:4, 2Tim. 3:15), and anyone who hurts or leads a child astray should, according to Jesus, be fitted with a cement necktie and thrown in to the Atlantic. (Mtt. 18:6) I think we need to be honest about the environment and workings of our educational system and compare that to Scripture.

An excellent reason to homeschool is to ensure that one's children are born again, nurtured, trained, and protected until they are mature enough to deal with what the world is going to throw at them. If a family decides that their high school son or daughter is ready for that challenge, that's great. Before then? Not buyin' it.

On a side note, to be consistent- if you claim to homeschool to protect your child from a perverted culture and Godless worldview, then your entertainment choices (TV, movies, etc) should reflect that also. Just to be consistent ya'll.

 

[annsni]

Susan, I do agree with you and that is why I homeschool my children. However, with my two older girls, by 9th grade, they were ready to be launched into the world and we used our public high school for their high school education. By that time we had done extensive apologetics study (Sonlight's 8th grade History of the Church curriculum) and my husband and I both felt God prompting us to send them. It was an excellent choice and they both made it through high school to finish well. They are now both in secular colleges and continue to walk strongly with the Lord, are bringing others to know Christ and are also thriving in their studies. I thank God for the opportunity to homeschool and I am now homeschooling my younger two children (3rd and 5th grades) and will do so until God leads us to send them to school. My thought is to do the same as the girls but we'll see what God wants, not what I want.

 

[jaigner]

An excellent reason to homeschool is to ensure that one's children are born again, nurtured, trained, and protected until they are mature enough to deal with what the world is going to throw at them.

This response was very well-stated and I agree with much of it.

But there is no guarantee that homeschooling them will make sure they are born again.

From the people I know and grew up with, there are as large a percentage of public-educated young adults (who came from committed Christian families) that are following Christ in their young adulthood as there are home-educated ones. There's very little in my experience to say that there is a correlation between homeschooling and relationship.

In fact, many of these children make a pretense of faith when they are younger and then, after leaving that situation, find themselves lost and disillusioned in a very big world that they were unaware of.

I completely agree that especially young children should be protected, but they should still be trained to interact with the rest of the world.

Unfortunately, in the worst of homeschooling families, this doesn't happen.

Not saying that public education is better than homeschooling by any stretch, but I grew weary of those who talked about how much better their children were going to be when, in reality, it doesn't happen. There are still huge pitfalls, not the least of which is idolizing children, that homeschoolers have to deal with.

 

[menageriekeeper]

My main issues with homeschooling, which in no way match or exceed the issues I have with public education, are from those who believe separation to an extreme degree is morally necessary. Many of these result in raising children that, while many are very gifted, lack an ability to actually engage culture in a real and meaningful way. These range from the hyper-conservative, Vision Forum type of homeschoolers to those who are more "normal."

The other real issue I have is that there is the element of perfectionism that runs rampant through the homeschooling community which produces bitter, depressed children that have life-long issues. Not that this doesn't happen with more traditionally-schooled kids, but it's huge in a movement that essentially turns kids into little idols for their parents.

Let's see some studies proving this. I don't have a single bitter, little robot, idol at my house. I have two perfectly normal children who can tell you who scum-Bob is, why they don't listen to Miley Cyrus and who can TAKE YOU DOWN in a game of Halo!

One cannot paint all homeschoolers with the same brush! You can't hardly even say the "majority" of homeschoolers do "x" because we are all so very different in belief, in technique, and in the reasons for choosing to homeschool in the first place. Here in Alabama we used to have an umbrella school that catered to atheists who wanted to homeschool! (I don't know if they still exist) In my own churchschool we range from long-haired, skirts only, Pentecostals all the way over to liberal, SBC families who's children are into goth! (though we don't allow obviously goth attire/makeup)

It would probably surprise you to know that I personally use textbooks that range from those developed for public school all the way Abeka and I've even used Paces (Bob Jones University) at times. All chosen with the particular needs of the child who would use them in mind.

You don't have that sort of freedom in public school. You can't. Public school is designed for the "normal, average" child. Those above or below the norm just have to fit in as best they can.

So what is best? For my children at this point in time: Homeschooling. For my godson: public school. See, even in my own house, I have different children with different needs.

One form of education doesn't have to be "best" for both to be useful in society.

On a political note: I'm all for more rights, more options and I'm against any legislation in this area that would hinder/remove/reduce my rights. www.parentalrights.org

 

[sunniemom]

But there is no guarantee that homeschooling them will make sure they are born again...

True- but I don't believe that anyone really thinks they can guarantee their child's salvation with an educational method. It is probably fair to say that most Christian HSing parents believe that home education gives them a better opportunity to fulfill Eph. 6:4.

The problems you bring up are real, but they are parenting issues that all must deal with regardless of where their child goes to school. All of our precious, adorable children are sinners at heart. And the last time I was at a public school sports function, there were PLENTY of parents idolizing children to an unhealthy degree.

What I think we have to ask is what is the Biblical paradigm - for a child to be educated primarily by a secular system with unregenerate teachers surrounded by other unregenerate children? Is that really the default option, with homeschooling being somewhere around the bottom of the pile if nothing else works out? It seems that this is what many, if not most, people believe- simply because traditional schooling is all we know.

If someone decides that public schooling best fits their needs based on exhaustive research, discussions with spouse and children and wise counselors, and a thorough knowledge of the school, curriculum, and teachers, I'm not going to stand around and tell them they are wrong. But how many parents do this before sending their kids to school?

After 15 years of homeschooling, I don't know a single parent who didn't agonize over the decision to homeschool, much less research and discuss and seek counsel before taking the leap.

It's fair to say that I've heard stories of parents who decided to homeschool because they felt pressured into it by family or friends or church... but that is a character flaw in the parents that quite frankly is going to be exploited by a secular education system. Are those going to be the parents in the trenches ensuring their child receives a top-notch education? I seriously doubt it.

 

[jaigner]

The problems you bring up are real, but they are parenting issues that all must deal with regardless of where their child goes to school. All of our precious, adorable children are sinners at heart. And the last time I was at a public school sports function, there were PLENTY of parents idolizing children to an unhealthy degree.

After 15 years of homeschooling, I don't know a single parent who didn't agonize over the decision to homeschool, much less research and discuss and seek counsel before taking the leap.

It's fair to say that I've heard stories of parents who decided to homeschool because they felt pressured into it by family or friends or church... but that is a character flaw in the parents that quite frankly is going to be exploited by a secular education system. Are those going to be the parents in the trenches ensuring their child receives a top-notch education? I seriously doubt it.

All of these are very fair points. I think the idolizing is worst with homeschooling - at least it was when I grew up. I saw both sides, as I was homeschooled and my older siblings (both smart, educated Christians) weren't.

But it comes down to what is best for a family. Private school is also an object. Whatever decision is made, it can only works well when parents are actively involved.

 

[Don]

"Idolizing"?

 

[jaigner]

"Idolizing"?

Some parents get to the point where their children actually take an unhealthy place in their lives. Everything revolves around the child's happiness to the point at which when the child goes through a hard time or rebels (even in small, expected ways), the parent's world falls apart.

There's something to be said for letting kids struggle sometimes. It's also very unhealthy for the kid. I've seen this have disastrous effects on a family.

Take it from one whose parent bowed down in front of me when I was growing up. It's not a good thing.

 

[annsni]

Some parents get to the point where their children actually take an unhealthy place in their lives. Everything revolves around the child's happiness to the point at which when the child goes through a hard time or rebels (even in small, expected ways), the parent's world falls apart.

There's something to be said for letting kids struggle sometimes. It's also very unhealthy for the kid. I've seen this have disastrous effects on a family.

Take it from one whose parent bowed down in front of me when I was growing up. It's not a good thing.

Honestly, I've seen this way more in public schooled or private schooled kids than homeschooled kids. Yes, it happens in homeschooling as well but I really don't think as often.

 

[menageriekeeper]

I have to agree with Ann.

Something about having your kids with the majority of the time, cures one of any blindspots you might have concerning your child's charater. A person can only ignore so much for so long. Eventually, it just hits you, "that's my child acting that way!" And you go to work fixing things.

Least that's how it works at my house. I have no illusions left that my children are perfect little angels with no flaws or defects. My kids would say that I had none to begin with.

 

[abcgrad94]

I attended private and public schools while growing up, and was homeschooled for a while as well. I've taught and worked in Christian schools and I homeschool my kids. My mom is a retired public school teacher. So, I've seen education from all sides.

Idolizing ones child has nothing to do with the form of education one chooses for that child. As far as perfectionism, I saw much more of this in the Christian schools than with homeschoolers. Yes, it does exist in the homeschool realm, just as a complete lack of care for a child's well-being exists in the public school realm. Overly perfectionist parents will lean more to the right and homeschool gives them more control in the child's education process, just as lazy parents who would rather dump their kids off on someone else all day will lean to the left and let the public school teachers raise their kids for them. Neither extreme is healthy, but neither should be used as a stereotype for either side. All homeschool parents aren't perfectionist, controlling monsters, and all public school parents aren't lazy and uncaring for their kids.

 

[Don]

Sorry, jaigner; what you're describing is a parental problem, not a homeschooling problem. Probably not something you want to hear, but there it is.

This "idolizing" thing you're talking about: Why do the parents you personally know do it? (not why do they homeschool; that's a secondary question.)

 

[gb93433]

Just in case you're doubting your decision...

I work in the school system. Between classes I stand in the hallway and make sure kids are safe, there's no fighting, and that when the bell rings, no students are still in the hallway.

Students who have boyfriends/girlfriends often cling to each other between classes, exchanging long hugs and kissing on the lips. There's no rule against this.

So what am I seeing on a regular basis?

Same sex couples clinging, hugging, kissing.

There's no rule against hugs or kisses so nothing can be said.

This happens in both the middle schools and high schools.

Aberrant sexual behavior freely on display between and around kids as young as twelve years old. Lovely, isn't it?

Those same things are found in scripture among some churches then too. Many churches today allow antagonists to run freely in their chruch and pastor after pastor leave those same churches because the leadership is weak, fruitless, and accommodate the antagonist often not recognizing the wolf and the damage he does.

When I went to seminary I was warned that I would see everything that was in the world too. I worked in maintenance and most surely did.

Sin is everywhere.

Is anything different today than in Romans 1?

I pastored a church years ago that had a regular practice of allowing the Mormon bishop to come and teach for over 20 years and the denomination did nothing except watch. That chruch was a part of a denomination that claims to stand for scripture. Three of the people were involved at the state level. One was involved at the national level.

 

[sunniemom]

Choice

At least if there is immorality and apostasy in a church or seminary, you have the choice to leave and find a place that is doctrinally and morally sound, and you can not only take yourself and your children, but you can take your money with you. Parents often don't have the choice of schools- it's either the school in their district, a private school, or homeschooling. And whichever you choose, your tax dollars stay in the district, which leaves alot of parents feeling cheated and helpless.

There is some movement toward school choice in many areas, and that would probably be a good thing- at least parents could put their kids in safe schools, and the competition would get some administrators and school boards to screw their brains on and work to make sure their students are provided a quality education in a decent environment.