Another thought concerning the blood. Scriptural or not?

[percho]

John 19: 30,31 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. - IMHO 14th Nissan

Were sins washed away in his blood at that moment?

Matt 27:62,63 Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate, Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again. - IMHO 15th Nissan

Were sins washed away in his blood at that moment?

Mark 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him. - IMHO 16th Nissan

Were sins washed away in his blood at that moment?

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. - IMHO 17th Nissan

Were sins washed away in his blood at that moment?

1 Cor 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
Rev. 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed [fn] us from our sins in His own blood,

 

[Revmitchell]

Oh my word who cares? Does scripture even try to define the exact moment? Jesus shed His blood, had His body broken, for our salvation. Diving into the mechanics that are never one mentioned in scripture in any kind of way only serves to draw more questions and lead to false doctrines. The gospel is simple. Leave it that way. Good grief.

 

[TCassidy]

Were sins washed away in his blood at that moment?

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[HankD]

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

IMO yes to all the inquiries.

HankD

 

[Van]

Whoa there folks. When are our sins washed away. When do we undergo the washing of regeneration? When God puts us spiritually in Christ. When do we undergo the circumcision of Christ where our body of flesh (sin burden) is removed? When God puts us spiritually in Christ. How are we justified? Through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 1:17, In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace.

When are our sins washed away? When God puts us spiritually into Christ.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

At the point of Christ's death atonement was made. That is why the Lord Jesus could say, "It is finished!" The resurrection is the evidence that God the Father has accepted the propitiation of our sins, but that acceptance was given at the cross.

We are not justified, declared righteous in Christ, until we repent and place our trust in Him, but the work of redemption was done on the cross:

'Tis finished! The Messiah dies,
Cut off for sins but not His own;
Accomplished is the sacrifice,
The great redeeming work is done.
'Tis finished! All the debt is paid;
Justice divine is satisfied;
The grand and full atonement made;
Christ for a guilty world has died.

The veil is rent in Christ alone;
The living way to heaven is seen;
The middle wall is broken down
And all mankind may enter in.
The types and figures are fulfilled;
Exacted is the legal pain;
The precious promises are sealed;
The spotless Lamb of God is slain.

The reign of sin and death is o'er,
And all may live from sin set free.
Satan has lost his mortal power;
'Tis swallowed up in victory.
Saved from the legal curse I am:
My Saviour hangs on yonder tree;
See there the meek, expiring Lamb!
'Tis finished! He expires for me.

Accepted in the well-beloved,
And clothed with righteousness divine,
I see the bar to heaven removed,
And all Thy merits, Lord, are mine.
Death, hell and sin are now subdued;
All grace is now to sinners given;
And Lo, I plead the atoning blood,
And in Thy right I claim Thy heaven.

 

[HankD]

...slain from the foundation of the world...

Not just from the creation of the world but the katabole or the design or architecture in the mind of God of the world. Christ slain from eternity past. Of necessity in eternity past.

Our exceedingly limited minds can not wrap around that concept. To try to put it all together as the 4 dimensional time stream flows by our three dimensional view of this world we can't possibly get all the puzzle pieces to fit into any Systematic Theology written by a mortal sinful man. Its like trying to explain 3 dimensions to a one eyed man.

Ecclesiastes 8:17 Then I beheld all the work of God, that a man cannot find out the work that is done under the sun: because though a man labour to seek it out, yet he shall not find it; yea further; though a wise man think to know it, yet shall he not be able to find it.

Isaiah 55
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

One day we will see as He sees.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

HankD

 

[TCassidy]

eternity past

Well said, Hank. And we are so challenged by the concept of eternity that we use terms such as "eternity past" which is, of course, an oxymoron. Eternity is timeless, and therefore has no past or future. Just the eternal "now."

 

[HankD]

Well said, Hank. And we are so challenged by the concept of eternity that we use terms such as "eternity past" which is, of course, an oxymoron. Eternity is timeless, and therefore has no past or future. Just the eternal "now."

Understood.

HankD

 

[percho]

Was the plan conceived in the mind of God before time began, yet carried out in time?

Was the Word before time, yet was made flesh, in time?

Before time began was the concept, in the mind of God for the Son of God to be born of woman, born under law, to redeem ones, under the law, that would be created of the flesh, sold under sin?

Before time began would that come about by soul life, of the flesh that was in the blood, being poured out? Would it have to be by absolute obedient soul life pf the flesh in the blood?
Would that absolute soul life of the flesh in the blood have the promise of God who cannot lie, the hope of eternal life?

Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;
Gal 3:16,19-21 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. --- Abraham died not having received the promise or promises. He currently has not received the promise. Heb 11:39,40 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Matt 26:38,39 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me. And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. ----- It would be the sin of mankind that he would bear.
Heb 12:3,4 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
Luke 22:42-44 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

Heb 5:7,8 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he (the) obedience by the things which he suffered; Phil 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Verse 9
Wherefore (διό dió, dee-o'; from G1223 and G3739; through which thing, i.e. consequently:—for which cause, therefore, wherefore.) God also hath highly exalted him, (Raised him from the dead) and given him a name which is above every name:
Acts 2:32,33 “This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. “Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.
From Heb 1:3 when he had by himself purged our sins, (through learned obedience unto death) sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Heb 5:9
And being made perfect, he became (by resurrection from the dead) the author (first cause) of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

It is Jesus Christ who was born of woman and died who has inherited the promise, by resurrection from the dead.

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

 

[Van]

More feverish mythology. Eternity is timeless? Who says. What scripture. None, zip, nada. I am sick and tired of bogus claims made without a shred of biblical support. The saints in heaven, which is a spiritual eternal realm, were aware of the passage of time. They asked, "how long?"

Jesus was not slain before creation, He was slain about 4000 years after the creation of Adam. Pay no attention to those who proclaim doctrine based on mistranslation.

To repeat, when is our sin burden removed? When God transfers us into Christ!!!!

Ephesians 1:17, In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace.

 

[HankD]

More feverish mythology. Eternity is timeless? Who says. What scripture. None, zip, nada. I am sick and tired of bogus claims made without a shred of biblical support. The saints in heaven, which is a spiritual eternal realm, were aware of the passage of time. They asked, "how long?"

Jesus was not slain before creation, He was slain about 4000 years after the creation of Adam. Pay no attention to those who proclaim doctrine based on mistranslation.

To repeat, when is our sin burden removed? When God transfers us into Christ!!!!

Ephesians 1:17, In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace.

We know the speed of light without a shred of scriptural evidence.
We know how to make thermo-nuclear bombs without a shred of biblical instructions.

It's called science. True science.

"timeless" is the basic definition of eternity Van.

Please give your evidence of a "mistranslation". Where is the mistranslation and what is the proper translation.
Please provide the Greek or Hebrew or both and the lexicon you use.

Thanks
HankD

 

[HankD]

Examples of scriptural "timelessness".:

Jesus is timeless:

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

before the world was... There was no earth no sun no anything, no material world.

There was therefore no seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, years, centuries, millennia and obviously no devices to measure that which did not yet exist.

In other words - timelessness.

Eternality is a state of being not a measure of time. Eternity is timeless.

HankD

 

[percho]

Is there a difference in the following, time wise or otherwise?

From Romans 1:20 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- creation of world
From Matt 19:35, Matt 25:34, Luke 11:50, John 17:24. Eph 1:4, Heb 4:3, Heb 9:26, 1 Pet 1:20, Rev 13:8, & 17:8 foundation of world
From Gen 1,1 Isa 45:18 the created earth

In other words did the foundation of the world take place when the earth was created or did it follow the creation of the earth? Also what about the creation of world and the creation of earth, same or different?

 

[HankD]

Is there a difference in the following, time wise or otherwise?

From Romans 1:20 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- creation of world
From Matt 19:35, Matt 25:34, Luke 11:50, John 17:24. Eph 1:4, Heb 4:3, Heb 9:26, 1 Pet 1:20, Rev 13:8, & 17:8 foundation of world
From Gen 1,1 Isa 45:18 the created earth

In other words did the foundation of the world take place when the earth was created or did it follow the creation of the earth? Also what about the creation of world and the creation of earth, same or different?

It preceded it the creation just as a blueprint precedes the construction of the building.

1 Peter 1
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

I don't want to re-research this but my memory says (From Kittel's Theological Dictionary of The New testament) that katabole is an architectural term. - The plan of the universe was laid out (literally thrown down) before the actual creation was done.

According to the 1 peter 1:18-20 then, our redemption "preceded" even the architectural design and blueprint of the universe.

The difficulty here is that time itself was part of the creation and indeed had no definition until the engineer ( Ho Logos) took the blueprint and created the universe.

How do you measure 24 hours without an earth rotating on its axis which is the only definition of time that we have.

Now is there a primitive definition of time known only to God? I don't know and I don't think so.
What would an eternal being need with time unless of course He wanted His creation to stream through it to keep everything from happening at once.

So, in the words of our language and knowledge of time, the foundation of the universe preceded the actual creation.

My thought out opinion of course.

HankD

 

[percho]

It preceded it the creation just as a blueprint precedes the construction of the building.

1 Peter 1
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

I don't want to re-research this but my memory says (From Kittel's Theological Dictionary of The New testament) that katabole is an architectural term. - The plan of the universe was laid out (literally thrown down) before the actual creation was done.

According to the 1 peter 1:18-20 then, our redemption "preceded" even the architectural design and blueprint of the universe.

The difficulty here is that time itself was part of the creation and indeed had no definition until the engineer ( Ho Logos) took the blueprint and created the universe.

How do you measure 24 hours without an earth rotating on its axis which is the only definition of time that we have.

Now is there a primitive definition of time known only to God? I don't know and I don't think so.
What would an eternal being need with time unless of course He wanted His creation to stream through it to keep everything from happening at once.

So, in the words of our language and knowledge of time, the foundation of the universe preceded the actual creation.

My thought out opinion of course.

HankD

Rather than plan of universe before creation, I think the plan of redemption was made, before the down casting of system of order which would include the creation of that which would need to be redeemed.

It appears to me that because the devil sinned from the beginning, which brought about his works including death, God, before down casting of system, determined, the way to destroy the devil and his works would be to redeem that which would be sold under sin, through the manifestation of the Son of God. 1 Peter 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

The down casting of system, would be the means through which the Son of God would be manifested in the likeness of Adam, in the fullness of time. Gal 4:4

 

[HankD]

Rather than plan of universe before creation, I think the plan of redemption was made, before the down casting of system of order which would include the creation of that which would need to be redeemed.

It appears to me that because the devil sinned from the beginning, which brought about his works including death, God, before down casting of system, determined, the way to destroy the devil and his works would be to redeem that which would be sold under sin, through the manifestation of the Son of God. 1 Peter 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

The down casting of system, would be the means through which the Son of God would be manifested in the likeness of Adam, in the fullness of time. Gal 4:4

Interesting thoughts.

The phrase - Fullness (pleroma Like a "full" church) of time has always fascinated me.

HankD

 

[Van]

Hi HankD, eternity refers to no beginning and no end. Duration is in view. Not the absence of sequence, or duration. You offered no scripture and claimed science supported your view. Physical time was created by God, that is science, but science does not address whether the spiritual realm is timeless or not.

The mistranslation refers to Revelation 13:8 and the claim Christ was slain from the foundation of the world. Here is the NET footnote

27tn The prepositional phrase “since the foundation of the world” is traditionally translated as a modifier of the immediately preceding phrase in the Greek text, “the Lamb who was killed” (so also G. B. Caird, Revelation [HNTC], 168), but it is more likely that the phrase “since the foundation of the world” modifies the verb “written” (as translated above). Confirmation of this can be found in Rev 17:8 where the phrase “written in the book of life since the foundation of the world” occurs with no ambiguity.​

 

[Van]

Revelation 6:10
and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

 

[Van]

Is there a difference in the following, time wise or otherwise?

From Romans 1:20 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- creation of world
From Matt 19:35, Matt 25:34, Luke 11:50, John 17:24. Eph 1:4, Heb 4:3, Heb 9:26, 1 Pet 1:20, Rev 13:8, & 17:8 foundation of world
From Gen 1,1 Isa 45:18 the created earth

In other words did the foundation of the world take place when the earth was created or did it follow the creation of the earth? Also what about the creation of world and the creation of earth, same or different?

The Bible speaks of three general intervals, "in the beginning" refers to the creation week. Before the foundation of the world refers to before creation, before physical time was created. And "from or since" the foundation of the world refers to after creation to the end of the age, when Christ returns.

Romans 1:20 - after creation to the end of the age
Matthew 13:35 - after creation to the end of the age
Matthew 25:34 - after creation to the end of the age
Luke 11:50 - after creation to the end of the age
John 17:24 - before creation, before physical time
Ephesians 1:4 - before creation, before physical time.
Hebrews 1:10 - during creation, in the beginning
Hebrews 4:3 - after creation to the end of the age
Hebrews 9:26 - after creation to the end of the age
1 Peter 1:20 - before creation, before physical time.
Revelation 13:8 - after creation to the end of the age
Revelation 17:8 - after creation to the end of the age.