Another thought concerning the blood. Scriptural or not?

[Van]

New day......same error posted yet again.....
Christ slain in 2000bc?

Christ was slain about 4000 years after creation, about 2000 years ago. Those that cite Revelation 13:8 to claim Christ was slain before the foundation of the world are basing their bogus doctrine on a mistranslation. TC can claim Dr. D. Wallace is wrong, the translators of the NASB are wrong, and the translators of the LEB are wrong till the cows come home. The NET footnote makes the truth clear.

Note the errors embraced by agenda driven analysis:
1) From does not mean before
2) Christ was not slain before the foundation of the world.
3) From the foundation means since creation, and refers to the whole period from creation to the end of the age.

When are our sins removed? When God transfers us spiritually into Christ where we undergo the circumcision of Christ.

 

[percho]

Why was the death of Christ necessary if all was foreordained before the foundation of the world? Is all that has taken place and will take place just a played out demonstration of the works of God? The world is but a stage, if you will?

When God created the first man, Adam, a living soul; Was it the faith of God, the belief of God, that man, Adam, would be obedient or before that man was created was it the plan of God to create man in his image, take woman from the man and in the fullness of time send forth his Son through woman and it was the faith of God, the belief of God, that Son, Jesus of Nazareth, would learn and become obedient unto death?

Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;

Does the word hope in that verse have anything to do with the definition of faith in Hebrews 11:1? Once again Gal. 3:23,25 Before and after, the faith. The substance of what's hoped for the evidence of things not seen?

Or was that, "cut and dried," also, being that Son was God and could be nothing but obedient, which in IMHO would make the death of the Christ moot?

 

[HankD]

Why was the death of Christ necessary if all was foreordained before the foundation of the world? Is all that has taken place and will take place just a played out demonstration of the works of God? The world is but a stage, if you will?

Yes there is quite a bit of truth in what you are saying here.

The created time stream is unfolding before our eyes having a beginning and an end yet coming forth from eternity out of His hands. We are flowing along in that stream.

Ecclesiastes 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also He has put eternity in their hearts, except that no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end.

Isaiah 46
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

My limited mortal mind cannot reconcile my free will and His absolute sovereignty over every moment of time.

Ecclesiastes 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also He has put eternity in their hearts, except that no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end.

So I quit trying...

Psalm 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.

HankD

 

[TCassidy]

My limited mortal mind cannot reconcile my free will and His absolute sovereignty over every moment of time.

My limited mortal mind cannot reconcile the fact that the moon is made of green cheese and the contradictory fact that the moon rocks brought back by the Apollo missions are not made of green cheese.

Perhaps the problem is not with my mortal mind, but with the non-factual nature of my "facts." The moon is NOT made of green cheese. There! Conflict resolved!

The will is NOT free! The unsaved man's will is in bondage to the law of sin and death. The saved man's will is bound to the law of new life in Christ. Conflict resolved.

The unsaved man cannot come to Christ on the basis of his free will for he has no free will. His will is in bondage to the law of sin and death.

The saved man cannot reject Christ unto perdition for his will, after regeneration, in now bound to the law of new life in Christ.

Neither has a "free will." Both's wills are in bondage. One to sin and the other to Christ.

 

[Van]

The Bible neither teaches nor condones the ostrich with its head in the sand approach to God's revelation.
If we do not like the answers to our questions, we might check our assumptions. What if God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass. Those future things God has declared in scripture are predestined/. But He has not declared everything. To claim He has is pure speculation, and speculation is the mother of false doctrine.

God's pleasure is to allow us to choose life or death according to scripture. So to take that away and substitute God compels one choice or the other is an abomination.

We either submit to scripture or proclaim our man-made mythology.

No verse says Christ was slain before the foundation of the world. To claim otherwise is to rewrite scripture according to man-made doctrine.

 

[HankD]

The will is NOT free! The unsaved man's will is in bondage to the law of sin and death. The saved man's will is bound to the law of new life in Christ. Conflict resolved.

The unsaved man cannot come to Christ on the basis of his free will for he has no free will. His will is in bondage to the law of sin and death.

The saved man cannot reject Christ unto perdition for his will, after regeneration, in now bound to the law of new life in Christ.

Neither has a "free will." Both's wills are in bondage. One to sin and the other to Christ.

OK then I have limited free will. Some prefer to call it apparent free will.

Though I am Christ's I can wander off from the flock by exercising my free will to do so and if I do He will leave the 99 and come looking for me seeing that He has promised to never forsake me.

HankD

 

[TCassidy]

OK then I have limited free will.

So your will was only slightly bound (limited) to the law of sin and death? It is only the "law of sin and a case of the sniffles?"

And now your will is only slightly bound (limited) to the law of new live in Christ?

 

[HankD]

So your will was only slightly bound (limited) to the law of sin and death? It is only the "law of sin and a case of the sniffles?"

And now your will is only slightly bound (limited) to the law of new live in Christ?

Correct

HankD

 

[TCassidy]

Though I am Christ's I can wander off from the flock by exercising my free will to do so and if I do He will leave the 99 and come looking for me seeing that He has promised to never forsake me.

That is not freedom of the will (the will is not free). What you are talking about is making choices. We all make choices. Every day we make choices. But our making choices does not negate the law of sin and death nor does it negate the law of new life in Christ.

But as with all choices, we are accountable for the consequences, either good or evil, of our choices.

A lost man can choose to go to church, give money in the offering, sing hymns, and listen to the sermon. But he is still a lost man. His will is still in bondage to the law of sin and death.

A saved man can choose to not attend church, to not give money in the offering, to not sing hymns, and not listen to the sermon. But he is still a saved man. His will is still bound in the law of new life in Christ.

 

[HankD]

That is not freedom of the will (the will is not free). What you are talking about is making choices. We all make choices. Every day we make choices. But our making choices does not negate the law of sin and death nor does it negate the law of new life in Christ.

But as with all choices, we are accountable for the consequences, either good or evil, of our choices.

A lost man can choose to go to church, give money in the offering, sing hymns, and listen to the sermon. But he is still a lost man. His will is still in bondage to the law of sin and death.

A saved man can choose to not attend church, to not give money in the offering, to not sing hymns, and not listen to the sermon. But he is still a saved man. His will is still bound in the law of new life in Christ.

I disagree, Like I said, I don't know how to reconcile my free will and responsibility for my free will choices against and in apparent contradiction to the absolute sovereignty of God and His holy will. However I do believe we all have free will in spite of my inability to grasp and understand this phenomena.

If folks want to call it "apparent free will" I have no objection but I don't really accept the qualifier.

Feel free to answer.

HankD

 

[TCassidy]

I disagree, Like I said, I don't know how to reconcile my free will and responsibility for my free will choices against and in apparent contradiction to the absolute sovereignty of God and His holy will. However I do believe we all have free will in spite of my inability to grasp and understand this phenomena.

If folks want to call it "apparent free will" I have no objection but I don't really accept the qualifier.

Feel free to answer.

HankD

So, you do not believe the lost man is in bondage to the law of sin and death? His will is unfallen and able to come to God on its own merit?

I can't help but think this thread might be an example of what is being discussed in the thread "Misunderstanding Unlimited Atonement." I'm sorry, Hank, but in my opinion you don't understand what "free will" is or what it implies.

You keep saying you cannot reconcile free will with the Sovereignty of God. The fact that "free will" does not exist seems to have escaped your notice. You are trying to reconcile something that does not exist with something that does exist. And thus your confusion.

You seem to have conflated "free will" with the ability to make choices. Two very different things.

 

[HankD]

So, you do not believe the lost man is in bondage to the law of sin and death? His will is unfallen and able to come to God on its own merit?

I can't help but think this thread might be an example of what is being discussed in the thread "Misunderstanding Unlimited Atonement." I'm sorry, Hank, but in my opinion you don't understand what "free will" is or what it implies.

You keep saying you cannot reconcile free will with the Sovereignty of God. The fact that "free will" does not exist seems to have escaped your notice. You are trying to reconcile something that does not exist with something that does exist. And thus your confusion.

You seem to have conflated "free will" with the ability to make choices. Two very different things.

Well, this I will admit is an ongoing issue since my days in Bible school decades ago that I think outside of the systematic theology box.

I also am sorry but to say that "free will" and the ability to make choices is a conflation is IMO semantic acrobatics. Tonight I must make a free will choice - spaghetti or rib steak.

Simply saying that free will does not exist does by no means make it so.

e.g. Ananias and Sapphira
Acts 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

To say that my inability to reconcile the free will of man with the sovereignty of God is "confusion" does not make it so.

In my case, my inability to make the reconciliation is a stand alone fact.
I am by no means confused over anything my God does that I don't understand.

Now as to fallen man, again I don't know how it is possible for a dead man to hear God's voice but if the raising of Lazarus is allegorical as well as literal (and I believe it is) then it is possible for the dead in trespasses and sins to hear the voice of the Son of God and respond, not by any merit or strength of their own of course but by the Spirit.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.



HankD

 

[percho]

My limited mortal mind cannot reconcile the fact that the moon is made of green cheese and the contradictory fact that the moon rocks brought back by the Apollo missions are not made of green cheese.

Perhaps the problem is not with my mortal mind, but with the non-factual nature of my "facts." The moon is NOT made of green cheese. There! Conflict resolved!

The will is NOT free! The unsaved man's will is in bondage to the law of sin and death. The saved man's will is bound to the law of new life in Christ. Conflict resolved.

The unsaved man cannot come to Christ on the basis of his free will for he has no free will. His will is in bondage to the law of sin and death.

The saved man cannot reject Christ unto perdition for his will, after regeneration, in now bound to the law of new life in Christ.

Neither has a "free will." Both's wills are in bondage. One to sin and the other to Christ.

Amen, Everything is either all of God or not at all. IMHO

 

[percho]

So your will was only slightly bound (limited) to the law of sin and death? It is only the "law of sin and a case of the sniffles?"

And now your will is only slightly bound (limited) to the law of new live in Christ?

? Until the redemption of the purchased possession?

 

[percho]

That is not freedom of the will (the will is not free). What you are talking about is making choices. We all make choices. Every day we make choices. But our making choices does not negate the law of sin and death nor does it negate the law of new life in Christ.

But as with all choices, we are accountable for the consequences, either good or evil, of our choices.

A lost man can choose to go to church, give money in the offering, sing hymns, and listen to the sermon. But he is still a lost man. His will is still in bondage to the law of sin and death.

A saved man can choose to not attend church, to not give money in the offering, to not sing hymns, and not listen to the sermon. But he is still a saved man. His will is still bound in the law of new life in Christ.

Will be judged according to those things done in the body?.

 

[percho]

So, you do not believe the lost man is in bondage to the law of sin and death? His will is unfallen and able to come to God on its own merit?

I can't help but think this thread might be an example of what is being discussed in the thread "Misunderstanding Unlimited Atonement." I'm sorry, Hank, but in my opinion you don't understand what "free will" is or what it implies.

You keep saying you cannot reconcile free will with the Sovereignty of God. The fact that "free will" does not exist seems to have escaped your notice. You are trying to reconcile something that does not exist with something that does exist. And thus your confusion.

You seem to have conflated "free will" with the ability to make choices. Two very different things.

I do not see free will in Rom 8:20 but the works of God. He created of the flesh, gave a law and we do good things and we do bad things and we die, in hope. The promise of God?

The hope came and paid the penalty of the law and even still we do good things and we do bad things and we die, in hope guaranteed by the above hope that came. Titus 3:6,7 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Also 2 Cor 5:5,4,3,2,1 Selfsame as Who 2 Cor 4:14

 

[percho]

Well, this I will admit is an ongoing issue since my days in Bible school decades ago that I think outside of the systematic theology box.

I also am sorry but to say that "free will" and the ability to make choices is a conflation is IMO semantic acrobatics. Tonight I must make a free will choice - spaghetti or rib steak.

Simply saying that free will does not exist does by no means make it so.

e.g. Ananias and Sapphira
Acts 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

To say that my inability to reconcile the free will of man with the sovereignty of God is "confusion" does not make it so.

In my case, my inability to make the reconciliation is a stand alone fact.
I am by no means confused over anything my God does that I don't understand.

Now as to fallen man, again I don't know how it is possible for a dead man to hear God's voice but if the raising of Lazarus is allegorical as well as literal (and I believe it is) then it is possible for the dead in trespasses and sins to hear the voice of the Son of God and respond, not by any merit or strength of their own of course but by the Spirit.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.



HankD

IMHO One never has had the free will to determine whether would life forever or not. IMHO Not even Adam. I believe Adam was created as the vehicle for the manifested Son of God. The obedience unto eternal life would come through him and him only and not because Adam sinned but because of the manner in which God created Adam for the purpose of 1 John 3:8 because of the sin of the devil. Adam would need to be redeemed either for selling himself or because he was sold for a purpose.

 

[HankD]

Amen, Everything is either all of God or not at all. IMHO

Yes, I agree.

The free will of man is all of God.
It DOES NOT violate His sovereignty.
The logic of man thinks it does, but no one can prove that it does.

Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.

The dice are freely cast but God in His sovereignty determines the outcome.
The free will of the gamblers is NOT violated.

The free will of man and the sovereignty of God work together to bring forth His inviolate will.

HankD

 

[HankD]

IMHO One never has had the free will to determine whether would life forever or not. IMHO Not even Adam. I believe Adam was created as the vehicle for the manifested Son of God. The obedience unto eternal life would come through him and him only and not because Adam sinned but because of the manner in which God created Adam for the purpose of 1 John 3:8 because of the sin of the devil. Adam would need to be redeemed either for selling himself or because he was sold for a purpose.

Of course Adam doesn't have the power to save himself. but God invites every child of Adam to exercise his power of choice to freely drink of the water of life.
If you want to say some CAN choose some CANNOT, OK you can find scripture which indeed seem to support that theory. But there are also invitations issued by God which indicate otherwise, that we are not robotic but fluid and have the ability to obey.

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Acts 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent.

I believe that the lamb's book of life has been predetermined by the council of His own will and is being ratified in the time continuum by those who choose Him.

HankD

 

[TCassidy]

Tonight I must make a free will choice - spaghetti or rib steak.

And how does choosing what you will have for supper disprove that the lost man's will is in bondage to the law of sin and death? Or how does the choosing what you will have for supper disprove that the saved man's will is bound to the law of new life in Christ.

The very error of mistaking free will for the ability to make choices seems to prove the conflation.

Simply saying that free will does not exist does by no means make it so.

So, a lost man's will is not in bondage to the law of sin and death and is therefore able to choose heaven on his own merits?

To say that my inability to reconcile the free will of man with the sovereignty of God is "confusion" does not make it so.

It does if you are confused concerning what free will is.

Now as to fallen man, again I don't know how it is possible for a dead man to hear God's voice but if the raising of Lazarus is allegorical as well as literal (and I believe it is) then it is possible for the dead in trespasses and sins to hear the voice of the Son of God and respond, not by any merit or strength of their own of course but by the Spirit.

So you assume Lazarus was dead when he responded to Christ's command to come forth? Why not believe Christ gave him life and the ability to hear and he came forth in the power of that restored life?