Another Thread On Translation

[Van]

We need to start with the best formal equivalence versions (NASB, LEB, NKJV} and improve them with insights from less formal versions such as the NET, WEB, CSB and others.

Idioms should be translated literally, then footnoted with the supposed idiomatic meaning.

 

[Van]

The NKJV, LEB, WEB, NIV, and CSB properly give the meaning of this idiom. Thus providing an actual translation.

Per BDAG
ἀνδρίζομαι...."conduct oneself in a courageous way"

I accepted your assertion ἀνδρίζομαι was an idiom. However I have not been able to independently confirm that view. Could you provide a link?

In my search I did find the alternate view:

A literal interpretation of andrizomai would be, as we saw above, "play the man," "live like men," "act like men," or simply "be men"—and that is what Paul is saying: Be men. He is writing to a church living at the same time as he, speaking the same Greek language, and having the same cultural influences, and he could expect his audience to know what he meant.

This says the Greeks would understand the literal meaning (be men) and not the asserted neutered "be courageous."

 

[McCree79]

I accepted your assertion ἀνδρίζομαι was an idiom. However I have not been able to independently confirm that view. Could you provide a link?

In my search I did find the alternate view: This says the Greeks would understand the literal meaning (be men) and not the asserted neutered "be courageous."

BDAG shows the erosion of the orginal meaning into the definition I provided. That iy lost its male emphasis in favor of a meaning to be "mature in courage". Garland also states the same in his BECNT on 1 Cor. Page 766. Based upon the evidence the BDAG shows and Garland's arguments....there is not much reason to ignore the historic usage in secular works and even the LXX (conduct oneself in a courageous way) in favor of "act like a man". ἀνδρίζομαι clearly moved beyond it's etymological beginnings and was used convey mature courage. Often contrasted with childish behavior

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[Van]

BDAG shows the erosion of the orginal meaning into the definition I provided. That iy lost its male emphasis in favor of a meaning to be "mature in courage". Garland also states the same in his BECNT on 1 Cor. Page 766. Based upon the evidence the BDAG shows and Garland's arguments....there is not much reason to ignore the historic usage in secular works and even the LXX (conduct oneself in a courageous way) in favor of "act like a man". ἀνδρίζομαι clearly moved beyond it's etymological beginnings and was used convey mature courage. Often contrasted with childish behavior

Reading between the lines, ἀνδρίζομαι is not an idiom. And thus the literal meaning is "act like a man" or "be men." And as I said before, two insights are removed from scripture by the loose translation, (1) the natural and expected behavior of mature men is courageous and (2) since there is no difference in Christ between male and female, Christian women are to act like men and be courageous.

 

[McCree79]

Reading between the lines, ἀνδρίζομαι is not an idiom. And thus the literal meaning is "act like a man" or "be men." And as I said before, two insights are removed from scripture by the loose translation, (1) the natural and expected behavior of mature men is courageous and (2) since there is no difference in Christ between male and female, Christian women are to act like men and be courageous.

Incorrect. At the time of usage the word no longer had any "maleness" to it. The word construction did not reflect its meaning. To render it as "act like men"is to render the word based on construction(and likely the orginal meaning, but it was since lost) and ignore its meaning at the time it was used. As Garland states in the BECNT. ἀνδρίζομαι does not reflect "masculine virtues"

When continuing to look at the BDAG it defines the a cognate of ἀνδρίζομαι, ἀνδρεῖος, has “heroic deeds worthy of a brave person,” and “ do many heroic deeds, of famous women.”

ἀνδρίζομαι is empty of any "maleness". It is a solely a reflect on courageous behavior.

The etymology of the the word shows it does not mean "act like men". At the time it was written in scripture, if was only a reference to courage. As Martin implied in his post. It is those transaltions who rendered it as "strong courage" or something similar that got the meaning of the word right. Etymology of the word shows that those who render it as "act like men", are looking solely at word construction and ignoring the appropriate historical meaning of the word. So those transaltions that provide us with the true meaning of ἀνδρίζομαι are NKJV, LEB, NIV, and the CSB. The ESV and NASB are in error(if you believe they we speaking to anyone else other than men) since they reflect a masculine tone which was emptied from the word when used at the time of scripture writing. So the literal meaning(as pointed out by Martin as well) of ἀνδρίζομαι is

BDAG -conduct oneself in a courageous way

LEH (LXX focused lexicon) -to be valiant; to strengthen oneself

**while your theological points are valid, they are not found here. The word does not refer to a masculine virtue, but a but a virtue to desired and/or considered useful people.

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[McCree79]

As far as the English "act like men" (and even the greek ἀνδρίζομαι- the word's literal construction, and original meaning-- which the meaning in Paul's day had long since not matched), there is no other way to take it but as idiom. There is a meaning in this group of words different that what they mean individually.

**edited for clarity**



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[Yeshua1]

Incorrect. At the time of usage the word no longer had any "maleness" to it. The word construction did not reflect its meaning. To render it as "act like men"is to render the word based on construction(and likely the orginal meaning, but it was since lost) and ignore its meaning at the time it was used. As Garland states in the BECNT. ἀνδρίζομαι does not reflect "masculine virtues"

When continuing to look at the BDAG it defines the a cognate of ἀνδρίζομαι, ἀνδρεῖος, has “heroic deeds worthy of a brave person,” and “ do many heroic deeds, of famous women.”

ἀνδρίζομαι is empty of any "maleness". It is a solely a reflect on courageous behavior.

The etymology of the the word shows it does not mean "act like men". At the time it was written in scripture, if was only a reference to courage. As Martin implied in his post. It is those transaltions who rendered it as "strong courage" or something similar that got the meaning of the word right. Etymology of the word shows that those who render it as "act like men", are looking solely at word construction and ignoring the appropriate historical meaning of the word. So those transaltions that provide us with the true meaning of ἀνδρίζομαι are NKJV, LEB, NIV, and the CSB. The ESV and NASB are in error(if you believe they we speaking to anyone else other than men) since they reflect a masculine tone which was emptied from the word when used at the time of scripture writing. So the literal meaning(as pointed out by Martin as well) of ἀνδρίζομαι is

BDAG -conduct oneself in a courageous way

LEH (LXX focused lexicon) -to be valiant; to strengthen oneself

**while your theological points are valid, they are not found here. The word does not refer to a masculine virtue, but a but a virtue to desired and/or considered useful people.

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Shows to uis that even the best English translation, the Nasb, has areas where it missed the mark, and all translation due in some areas, as NONE are perfect!

 

[Van]

Shows to uis that even the best English translation, the Nasb, has areas where it missed the mark, and all translation due in some areas, as NONE are perfect!

Yet another implied falsehood, as if some had claimed even the best English translations had not missed the mark and were perfect. What utter nonsense.

When will the false assertions be ended?

 

[Rippon]

Idioms should be translated literally,

There is no such animal is literal.

If someone would want to be as "literal as possible" Should the expression It's raining cats and dogs be saying anything about cats and dogs to express the idea that it's raining heavily?

Idioms usually don't mean what its words say. That's the trouble with your literalitis. It's stuck in an irrational mode.
Many Bible idioms are dead --unfamiliar to readers. Do you want readers to understand --or would you rather keep them in the dark? Fortunately even the NASB translators disagree with your nonsensical notions. That's why it usually puts the understandable in the text itself.

 

[Van]

On and on the advocates of loose translation post. But note the absence of sample verses where formal equivalence cannot provide accurate readable translation.
Liberals attack the meaning of words, such as there is no such thing as literal. None of the dictionaries are correct. As I said, on and on they swing their empty sack.

When will the false assertions be ended?

 

[Van]

Is deserving of wrath the idiomatic meaning of children of wrath? No, of course not.
It is a mistranslation.

Is friends of God the idiomatic meaning of children of God? No, of course not. It is a mistranslation.

Such unliteral choices can be found in at least one loose translation! But according to one poster, those choices are appropriate because there is no such thing as literal.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yet another implied falsehood, as if some had claimed even the best English translations had not missed the mark and were perfect. What utter nonsense.

When will the false assertions be ended?

KJVO claim that position, correct?

 

[Yeshua1]

Is deserving of wrath the idiomatic meaning of children of wrath? No, of course not.
It is a mistranslation.

Is friends of God the idiomatic meaning of children of God? No, of course not. It is a mistranslation.

Such unliteral choices can be found in at least one loose translation! But according to one poster, those choices are appropriate because there is no such thing as literal.

No, rather that it is IMPOSSIBLE to have a 100 % of the time literal/formal translation, as there are times translator will choose a "looser" rendering to have it make more sense!

 

[Van]

KJVO claim that position, correct?

Yet another off topic misrepresentation of my view. How long must I wait before this travesty is addressed?

 

[Yeshua1]

Yet another off topic misrepresentation of my view. How long must I wait before this travesty is addressed?

Do you hold that there can be a translation that is totally literal all of the time?

 

[Van]

No, rather that it is IMPOSSIBLE to have a 100 % of the time literal/formal translation, as there are times translator will choose a "looser" rendering to have it make more sense!

And the travesty continues. Did anyone say 100%? Nope. They post falsehood after falsehood, misrepresentation after misrepresentation and no corrective action is taken.

Meanwhile I present specific examples of mistranslation after mistranslation and no justification is offered.

Children literally means children not deserving.
Children literally means children not friends.
To neuter "act like courageous men" with be courageous is adulteration, plain and simple.
Take a look at 1 Kings 2:2 and see if "men" has not been deleted in some versions for the sake of being PC. Now this word is translated as male, men, husband and so forth again and again, so the "has lost its meaning" canard will not fly.

 

[Van]

Do you hold that there can be a translation that is totally literal all of the time?

Asked and answered dozens of times. More effort to change the subject, and prevent discussion of loose translation misrepresentation of the inspired text.

 

[Yeshua1]

Asked and answered dozens of times. More effort to change the subject, and prevent discussion of loose translation misrepresentation of the inspired text.

Yes or no, pretty simple question!

 

[Van]

Why not share how I answered the question before?

What are you thoughts of 1 Kings 2:2? Why did some versions neuter the text?
Are they providing the idiomatic meaning?

Children literally means children not deserving.
Children literally means children not friends.
To neuter "act like courageous men" with be courageous is adulteration, plain and simple.
Take a look at 1 Kings 2:2 and see if "men" has not been deleted in some versions for the sake of being PC. Now this word is translated as male, men, husband and so forth again and again, so the "has lost its meaning" canard will not fly.

 

[Yeshua1]

Why not share how I answered the question before?

What are you thoughts of 1 Kings 2:2? Why did some versions neuter the text?
Are they providing the idiomatic meaning?

Children literally means children not deserving.
Children literally means children not friends.
To neuter "act like courageous men" with be courageous is adulteration, plain and simple.
Take a look at 1 Kings 2:2 and see if "men" has not been deleted in some versions for the sake of being PC. Now this word is translated as male, men, husband and so forth again and again, so the "has lost its meaning" canard will not fly.

Think that it was proven that actually at the time of the writing, would have met someone being and courageous, male and female, people in general!