Hello hrhema
You said:
Again the issue about tongues ceasing and your proof that this is based on the word of God or the Bible being translated I am awaiting. I know I will have to wait forever because it just does not state that. That is people personal interpretation. You simply like others are guessing.
I have explained this before. I also know that Lorelei, DHK, Don, Briguy, Katie, DocCas, and others have also.
There are many thing happening in the name of the Holy Spirit. Many are claiming to speak in tongues by the Spirit, laugh in the Spirit, be slain in the Spirit, be drunk in the Spirit, be healed by the Spirit, and many more of the such, all in the name of the Holy Spirit of God. So we need to test this spirit to see if it is indeed the Spirit of God (1 John 4:1) We need to know if what we see happening today is the same thing that the Bible speaks of. This study will show that the things happening in the Church are not the same as what the Bible speaks of. And will show that the Bible teaches that the gifts of the Spirit have ceased and are not longer needed today. Paul list several gifts of the Spirit in the first book of Corinthians in chapter twelve. The letters to the Corinthians were primarily written in order to solve church problems or correct false teaching. This theme should be understood before anyone studies first or second Corinthians. Today we seem to have a vast misunderstanding in many assemblies today as to exactly what "gifts" are and why they were given.
From this chapter we read of the following gifts:
Word of Wisdom
Word of knowledge
Faith
Healing
Working of Miracles
Prophecy
Discerning of spirits
Tongues
Interpretation of tongues
Paul teaches that everyone does not have the same gift, and compares that fact to the human body which is an illustration of the Body of Christ.
1Cor. 12:12
For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ.
NASU
This is important to understand in light of the fact that today, many people are wanting to experience the same gift. And not only so, but that everyone's spirituality is seemingly measured by certain gifts, namely the gift of tongues. To go a step further some will determine ones Salvation by evidence of speaking in tongues, urging all to speak in tongues. This is done in spite of the Bible's plain teaching that salvation is granted to those who simply believe in Jesus by faith alone (John 3:16, Eph. 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Acts 16: 29-31)
In 1Cor. 13:8 Paul deals specifically with three gifts. Gifts of which the Corinthians were having the most problems. The gift of tongues, prophecy, and knowledge. In the 14th chapter Paul had to write a great deal about the biggest problem gift of all for these believers, the gift of tongues. Which seems to be the biggest problem “gift” today. The bible teaches that every gift that was mentioned above has ceased. I believe that every gift that is mentioned here in Corinthians has ceased and is no longer given to us in the same way. For example, the gift of wisdom is obtained by study of God through His word. In fact, faith is strengthen the more we study evidence, especially that obtained by the Word of God. We can discern spirits by truth through the Word of God. They have ceased because now we have something that the early church believers did not have, and that is the full complete revelation of God - the Bible. By far, the Bible can do more for the Church than any gift of the Spirit. It is much more reliable, trustworthy and can speak to our heart in ways that go beyond anything extra-biblical.
1Cor. 13:8-13 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.
NASU
The Bible says here that 1. Prophecies shall be done away [fail] 2. Tongues shall cease [or be stilled]. 3. Knowledge shall be done away [vanish]. It would be good to briefly explain the meanings of each of these gifts before proceeding because in the Charismatic circles they are so often miss-defined.
The gift of Prophecyhas always meant to speak for God to the people in a way that would reveal future events. This word does not signify preaching as some proclaim It means to have a real prophetic utterance. Prophecy is to know future events. The Old Testament is full of prophets who spoke to the people for God. One way to tell a false prophet from that of one from God was to simply see if what they prophesied came true. These early believers could not flip to 1 Thessalonians to determine if there would be a rapture. They relied on those with this gift to tell them such things. We have something now so much more trustworthy that is not mixed with human's sin nature. We have the complete revelation of God.
The gift of Knowledge was just that, it was to know about Gods doctrine. It had nothing to do with some psychic ability. Often we hear the phrase "gift of knowledge" associated with some mystical knowledge that is given to a person in a psychic way. For example, after Church services a person who supposedly has the gift of knowledge would tell another member not to go home a certain way because they feel that God has given them the knowledge that there will be an accident. Or a person with this gift of knowledge may know about someone's personal life. Where is the test for this type of thing? You certainly can't test it in light of the Word of God, in that the Bible does not give us the intricate details of such things as accidents. This gift was given to the early church because the Gospel of Christ without the works of the Law was a new doctrine to them. Especially to the Jews (Acts 17:19). There was a new dispensation being ushered in, and with that came certain gifts to help these new believers understand certain theological things. These believers could not simply open their bibles on a Sunday morning to book chapter and verse to learn about doctrine. They needed people who had this gift.
The gift of tongues musts be defined here Biblically. We cannot determine what this gift is by what people today claim to do. It is evident that there are people who are seemingly controlled by something and are speaking in a way that can't be understood. And these same people can call it speaking in tongues, but this may not be the biblical tongues. So let us define biblical tongues. Tongue: ( Greek word is glossa) is the language or dialect used by a particular people distinct from that of other nations. In the book of Acts chapter two the apostles began to speak in languages that they were not able to speak before. Was this a special language given of God? Was this the tongues of angels mentioned by Paul (1 Corinthians 13:1)? No, the apostles spoke languages that already existed. Tongues were the ability to speak in a real language. Not in some babble or gibberish. It would be as if a local Church has all English speaking people as members except for one that could speak Spanish. Then if the Spanish speaking person was to get up and start speaking Spanish only the one speaking would understand what was being said. This person would become very useful to someone who came to that Church as a visitor and could only understand Spanish. Now if there were two or even three people in that Church who could speak Spanish and one started to talk in that language, the others could act as an interpreter. When we see "tongues" in the Bible it was real languages. As mentioned the first occurrence of speaking in tongues is in Acts 2, is one of the best places to find the meaning, and see it was real languages.
Acts 2:6-12
When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language? Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs-we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!"
NIV
Then in 1Cor. 14 we read:
In the Law it is written: "Through men of strange tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me," says the Lord.
NIV
This can’t be missed. If you are part of a local church and someone, or two or three or even more (as usually is the case) start speaking on some language that can’t be identified as a real known language then something is not right! And as we will soon discover, if they are doing this for absolutely no reason at all except to supposedly worship God, then again we have a problem. This is not Biblical in any way. Tongues were not given to worship God.
Looking closer at 1Cor. 13 we find that Paul taught the ceasing of these gifts in parables.
Parable one For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. The gifts were given only in part. They knew in part, because they did not have the complete revelation of God. They prophesy in part because they did not have the complete revelation of God. But when that which is perfect is come, then the in part will be in full. But what is the “which is perfect is come?” The text shows that it could only refer to the Revelation of God, the Word of God. Some people think that Paul is referring to Jesus. But Jesus is not in the context. And “that which” could not be referring to a person, especially the person of Jesus Christ. Instead Paul would have written "And He Who" not "that which". Further, this couldn’t be Jesus because Jesus is going to come back in two different stages. Which stage would this then make these gifts end? At which stage would there not be a need for these three gifts? In the original languages, the "perfect (thing)" is not Christ, but the completed bible. In the orginal language the Greek word translated "perfect" is teleios (tel'-i-os); meaning "perfect" in the sense of "nothing lacking" or "complete." It is neuter, so it cannot possible refer to Jesus, who is masculine. Paul makes it very clear that the gift of tongues would die out. 1 Corinthians 13:8
"Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease;" There has to be a time when the gift of tongues would cease. Paul is making this clear. It would be a bit strange if Paul is making this point obvious, that he would leave us in the dark as to
when it would happen. He tells us when it will happen. *The Greek word translated "cease" is a future tense, middle deponent voice, indicative mood verb meaning "to cease in and of themselves" or to "die away of themselves." [*I learned the Greek from DocCas here on the BB]
Parable two shows a time frame as to when “that which is perfect” will come. He says, “When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.” Paul is using an illustration of a time frame by using a life-span:
Baby.......Child.............Man..........Death
It is some time in those years that Paul teaches us that he is putting away childish things. Just like in the lifetime of this age of the Church the childish things will be put away. It cannot be after Jesus comes back, because then the lifetime of the Church will be over. But it will and must happen within this age, the time of the Church. What are the childish things within the Church age? When Paul was a child he spake as a child is a reference to tongues. He understood as a Child is reference to knowledge, and he thought as a Child is reference to prophecy. But when he became a Man those things disappeared. When? Sometime in his lifetime. Just like sometime in the Church age those things were to disappear.
Parable three Back to “that which is perfect” For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. This is a reference back to the Word of God. Paul tells the Corinthian church that, when the completed bible is in their hands, they will no longer only have a partial knowledge, but they will know just as they are known, they will see the word of God just as well as they see their own face in a mirror. When we look into the perfect law of liberty (the bible) it shows us ourselves as we really are. To try to make "perfect" refer to Jesus is to emasculate the Savior and distort the scriptures. To try to make the "face to face" be anything more than a metaphor referring to our ability to know the bible, is also to distort the scriptures. The Word of God is that which is perfect. When the Word is complete then that which is in part shall be done away. Scripture will interpret Scripture. We don’t have to guess what the “glass” means. Jesus is not the glass. The glass is the Word:
2 Cor 3:18
But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.
NKJV
James 1:22-25
Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it-he will be blessed in what he does.
NIV
Remember the perfection? Could this be obtained from the Bible?
2 Tim 3:16-17
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
(KJV)
Peter also wrote of the greatest prophecy. He tells us about an experience his eyes saw, and ears heard. This experience he had was on the mount of transfiguration. Yet he said, we have a greater prophecy The Word of God. All this is found in 2 Peter chapter one. The Bible is above all human experiences and emotions. When discussing the gifts with those who feel it is still being given and is indeed demonstrated today, they often use experimental arguments. And often failure to dig into God's word is prevalent. The Bible is powerful. It does more for a person than any thing, experience, gift, what eyes may see, what ears may hear what the body may feel. The gifts of the Spirit were communicated through infallible people who can not be trusted while the Word of God can be trusted without question.
Heb 4:12-13 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account. (NKJV)
Paul goes one step further in his quest to correct the Corinthian church. He must explain the most misunderstood gift of all, and today it is still so misunderstood. That is the gift of tongues. But even worse, I believe that Satan has deceived many into thinking they are speaking a language for God, when the language they are speaking is not from God. Satan has disguised this spiritual language using Biblical terminology. Just how often is the gift of tongues referred to in Scripture? Acts 2,10,19 those are the historical accounts. Then the doctrinal accounts are found in 1Cor 12,13,14. [*Mark 16:17 is another reference though this is not found in the best manuscript evidence] David did not have the gift, Samuel did not have it. Abraham, Joseph, Ezra, Esther, or any Old Testament Saint had this gift.
This brings us to the main reason this gift was given. It was a sign to the Jews. Namely the unbelieving Jews. The Bible says that the Jews require a sign:
1 Cor 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom
The new dispensation of grace (church age) was being ushered in, and God used these gifts as a sign to the Jews. God always used signs for the Jews. The Jews asked for a sign from Jesus to prove He was who He claimed to be. There were plenty of signs given already. But they sought more. This new dispensation was a “new doctrine” to them.
Acts 17:19-21
Then they took him and brought him to a meeting of the Areopagus, where they said to him, "May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? You are bringing some strange ideas to our ears, and we want to know what they mean." (All the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there spent their time doing nothing but talking about and listening to the latest ideas.)
NIV
These sign gifts were given to only certain people, to the Apostles. Not just the twelve (Paul replacing Judas), but to those who qualified for this office. How did one qualify?
Acts 1:21-22
Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from John's baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection."
NIV
They had to be personally acquainted with the Lord's ministry from John's baptism to his
assention. They had to have a first hand account. It is not possible to have apostles today. They are all gone. Lets look at the meaning of apostle from Unger’s Bible Dictionary:
APOSTLE (Grk. apostolos, a "delegate"). One sent with a special message or commission. In this sense the word is used in the LXX (1 Kings 14:6; Isa 18:2), and in the NT: John 13:16, "Neither is one who is sent [apostle] greater than the one who sent him"; 2 Cor 8:23; Phil 2:25, where persons sent out by churches on special errands are called their apostles, or messengers. In Heb 3:1 Jesus is called "the Apostle and High Priest of our confession."
The Bible says that it is by these Apostles that these sign gifts were given.
Acts 5:12
And through the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were done among the people. And they were all with one accord in Solomon's Porch
NKJV
Heb 2:3-4
how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?
NKJV
This brings us to the book of Acts and day of Pentecost. Now, the promise of God in Joel 2:28 is given.
Acts 2 "And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."
It is important to understand this transformation from the age of the law to the age of grace and what exactly has just taken place will help us to understand more about the book of Acts with it's relevance to us today. We are being shown how God in His infinite wisdom and glory sends his Spirit to permanently indwell people of all nations (Acts 2:16-21). We must realize that this is not the first time that His Spirit indwells His people, but it is the first time when God's opens up his covenant and offers His Spirit to indwell believers of any nationality permanently. This was a hard thing for the Jewish people to accept and understand. Up until now, they were God's chosen people. Now, God was shedding His grace upon Gentiles and Samaritans as well, people that were before enemies to the nation of Israel. As we look at how God unfolded His plan, we can identify the transitions that take place and why they were necessary. This goes back to that fact that the Jews require a sign. And the main purpose for this gift of tongues being used. What we must remember is that not everything in the book of Acts applies to us today. As we look at the rest of the chapter of Acts, we will see how unique these experiences were. Only those who were alive at this most glorious and awesome time in history were able to experience this transition. Again this is the first time that anyone has been baptized with the Holy Spirit, it was an impressive moment. This is truly a unique experience as the Holy Spirit now begins to indwell the lives of believers and unite the church as one body in Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13) It is rather obvious from Acts two that this is something of historical only, and is not what happens today. There are no other incidents where believers hear a the "sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind" nor will you see the cloven tongues like fire. We must understand that the book of Acts records historical accounts, and we must be careful to use these events to form a doctrine.
[ August 31, 2002, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: Chet ]
a Baptist?
