Another verse that blows ME out of the water

Your mighty welcome. I have had all of this twisted theology I want. I am heading into some sensible debates. I hope you the best with this subject!

 

It is amazing that ME proponents believe the son of perdition will reign on a throne with Christ and saved people will go to the place prepared for the devil and his messengers.

Talk about a doctrine of devils, Millenial Exclusion is it.

 

You have got that Right! No doubt about it! I'll see you guys and gals else where Lord Willing!

 

Actually the fact that he was promised a throne only proves he was saved, it in no way implies that he met the conditions for inheriting the throne. The Israelites, whose carcasses fell in the wilderness, Reuben the firstborn, and Esau, were promised a kingdom, but failed inherit it.

Lacy

 

It's like jne1611 said, if Judas, the son of perdition who Jesus Himself said was lost gets a throne then we are surely guaranteed a place in the the kingdom! We have nothing to worry about. No one could commit a worse sin than he did and he gets rewarded!
Booyah!

 

You have to read the Bible upside down and backward to come to conclusions like this.

 

Judas was not saved, Lacy. You don't understand what son of perdition means, do you?

I certainly believe npetreley was right when he said the ME proponents are preaching another gospel than that which Paul preached.

 

New Testament (Greek) Perdition

G684 apōleia ä-pō'-lā-ä perdition, destruction, waste, damnable, to die, perish, pernicious

 

The same title given to the man of sin. Go figure.

 

Judas was not promised a throne.

Jesus said 'Ye which have followed me (past tense)... shall sit upon twelve thrones (future tense), judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Since the Apostles had followed Jesus, they have thrones and will sit upon them as judges. It's a done deal. But, Judas, the son of perdition cannot be on one of those thrones. He was not a true follower of Christ.

The promise was given. Those who followed Christ up to that point would sit on thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel. He is faithful who promised. His followers will sit on those thrones.

 

Reading all of Matthew 19, I find something interesting. Jesus was not just speaking to the 12, He was speaking to Pharisees as well. It is very possible that Paul was there amongst the Pharisees. After all, he was a 'pharisee of the pharisees'. The twelvth throne mentioned by Jesus could have been standing right there amongst them!

Paul did say in 2 of his Epistles that he was called to be an Apostle. The thrones, according to Revelation, were set up for the twelve Apostles of the Lamb.

It is quite obvious that Judas was not one of the Apostles to sit on the throne.

 

I honestly don't get the mentality behind ME, with respect to who gets to rule with Christ, etc. If I run as hard as I can and get rewarded with a job cleaning toilets in heaven, I can tell you I will be the happiest toilet cleaner ever (not that I believe there will be toilets in heaven, but you get the idea). Maybe it's just me, but I don't need Jesus dangling a reward of "you get to rule over New Jersey" to motivate me. I also don't need the threat of 1,000 years in fire, either.

 

I think that Paul is the 12th apostle. Matthias was chosen by the OT way of casting lots, but Paul was chosen by Christ Himself, just as the other apostles were. Can't prove it. I just believe that.

 

I will be happy just to be with the Lord and be rid of sin once and for all.

Having said that, I really hope I don't have to clean toilets, as I have cleaned enough of them to last for eternity!:laugh:

 

Interesting

I see the 12 disciple's represents the twelve tribes of Israel. One cut out for unbelief. One chosen by lots who represents the Gentiles. Paul represents the one's who are crafted back in who do not continue in thier unbelief.

2 Corinthians 3:16
But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

Romans 11:
17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

 

But wouldn't that make 13 disciples?

12 - Judas = 11

11 + Matthias = 12

12 + Paul = 13

 

The requirements to be an Apostle were

One had to have companied with the Apostles and witnessed His Resurrection. (Acts 1:21,22)

Paul very well could have companied with the Apostles. We know the Pharisees were seen near them often. We do know he witnessed the Resurrected Christ on Damascus Road. (Acts 9)

We also know that Paul said he was called to be an Apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God. (1 Corinthians 1)

Yes, I believe the twelvth Apostle was none other than Paul himself.

 

I've never looked into this issue, so pardon my ignorance, but is there a distinction between the 12 disciples and 12 apostles?

 

Acts 1:23So they proposed two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24Then they prayed, "Lord, you know everyone's heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs." 26Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

By who's authorty do you not call Matthias an Apostle. Paul was crafted back in by the authority of the Lord. The Gentiles where included with the believing Jews and they are the thirtenth tribe. I agree that Paul was an Apostle, and so was Matthias

 

As I said, it is my belief. I do not wish to argue about it.

I did think there would 12 thrones, not 13.