Answer me, someone, please

1. I quoted from the ESV.

2. Christ's Father arranged Christ's marriage to Christ's bride.

3. In God's Word.

4. The whole chapter.

Read it and see.

 

1. The part that I quoted does.

2. Yep.

3. They were God's chosen people, and they believed what God told them.

4. That's not what it says. Look at verse 11 and 13 too. Better yet, look at the chapter as a whole. Context is crucial.

Paul wrote so that we who are saved can understand how we came to be saved.

 

Scriptures clearly say God has drawn certain ones to Himself.

John 6:44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

"And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day...I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours...Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world" ( John 6:39;17:9,24, NIV).

Romans 8:29-30: Fpr whome he foreknew, he also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Once we are drawn to Christ He reconciles us:
II Corn 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation

GOD reconciles us. We don't. HE does.

"For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake" (Phil. 1:29)

God calls us, touches us our hearts so that we can see our sin, offers us a pardon from that sin, and then - only then, are we allowed to exercise the free will in accepting or rejecting that pardon.

 

It is nice to see a balanced view of this. Yes, God calls us, but "whosoever will may come". God does not force anyone.

 

Yes... as did God. Ephesians 2:1 Colossians 2:13

He can't. That is half of my point. The other half is that dead people or unborns do not choose to be resurrected or be born.

None of that is true either and you are making conjectures about God that aren't escaped simply by rejecting His sovereignty in salvation.

First, it isn't that there is any mental or physical limitation that prevents man from choosing salvation. It is simply against his carnal, sinful nature to do so. (1 Cor 2:14, Romans 8:5-9)

Second, if God is guilty of playing favorites by regenerating some while letting the others alone then how is He not guilty of sending a preacher to some and leaving others ignorant? Why isn't he guilty for allowing men to pervert the gospel so that they are deceived into a false form of Christianity?

Men have free will and are responsible for their decisions. God is not guilty when men choose wrongly and are condemned... but He and only He should get credit when they choose correctly.

The only consistent reconciliation I have seen that allows both man's will and God's sovereignty is that God changes a man's nature through regeneration and man in concert believes and repents. I believe that God is the intiator but that there is no time span between these 'events'. I use the phrasing that God regenerates then man believes because I am not aware another way of saying it that emphasizes God's sovereign act of grace.

He doesn't say except that it is according to His own good pleasure and not of any merit that we possess or demonstrate.

And this is exactly the point after which Wes and I have had our running disagreement.

Why did you accept God's gift? Where did the belief or faith come from? Is it something that you as an unregenerate sinner chose in obedience to God?

Did you of your own sinful nature choose to believe or did the Holy Spirit quicken your spirit which made it natural for you to believe?

If it was your decision then why do you not deserve credit for making a good call? But if it was to your credit then it was merited, right? And if it was by merit then it was not by grace, right?

I contend and no one has refuted that if a good decision is prerequisite for salvation then it is by merit. One chooses well, another poorly... Can you explain how it can be otherwise?

[ May 04, 2005, 05:21 PM: Message edited by: Scott J ]

 

Do you believe John 3:5-8 as well?

Not trying to be smart but people who point to that verse usually do so with the idea that it defeats calvinism... it doesn't.

 

You think you are qualified to say that MacArthur does not know how to exposite scripture?

How about Gill... or Spurgeon... or Pink... or Knox... or Edwards? Do you likewise judge that these heroes of the faith didn't know how to exposite scripture?

Calvinists don't say nor believe this.

How can you say that God is sovereign if He is His will and plan that He foreknew before the founding of the world concerning those He would redeem were subject to a sovereign decision by a sinful human being?

I can't answer for every calvinist as I am sure that you can't answer for every non-calvinist. However, I would contend that election offers more comfort than dependence on a willful, human decision.

These children never had an opportunity to hear the gospel and decide for themselves... if those things are necessary per the economy you seem to suggest then they are condemned. How would you account for the salvation otherwise?

They have all been answered biblically.

This is an interpretive issue regardless of which side you come down on. Both... or rather, all sides use scripture. You don't have to accept an interpretation in order to recognize that it has scriptural support.

It is my opinion, consistently reinforced by arguments like the ones made by non-calvinists here, that calvinism does the best job of reconciling the related concepts and scriptures.

 

Do you believe John 3:5-8 as well?

Not trying to be smart but people who point to that verse usually do so with the idea that it defeats calvinism... it doesn't. </font>[/QUOTE]It is not that verse alone, Scott J. It is the whole of the text which includes verses 13-21.

Let's see what a little context does. This is Jesus' discourse with Nicodemus.

 

Wes, There is nothing in this text that is contradictory to the things that I have said. I have affirmed God's election and regeneration of the saints according to His predestined will and I have affirmed that man exercises faith and belief consistent with his spiritual nature according to free will.

Both of these things are present in the text of this scripture.

We are born of the Spirit and we believe. We believe because we are born of the Spirit.

 

We are born of the spirit because we believe!

 

Then Christ's analogy was nonsense, huh?

What part of birth does belief or choice play?

Let's see your scriptural proof that belief enables the Spirit to give us new birth... and don't try to evade the word "enable" if God couldn't do something before you believed then it is by your will that you have enabled Him.

BTW, why are still evading the implications of what you claim?

If one person chooses to believe and another chooses not to, how is it not merit on the part of the believer? If God recognizes "faith" in someone and faith is a result of believing continuously then God is not acting in grace He is recognizing merit/worthiness.

 

You are confused over the Christ's analogy.

One must believe before one becomes born again. That is the way we humans are made!

If you are speaking of natural birth and comparing that to spiritual REBIRTH, then you are comparing apples to toadstools. Natural childbirth was "planned" 9 months earlier before the event takes place.

Now, in order to be "spiritually reborn" your spirit must have something to work with. If you do not, through Hearing, take in that which the spirit can believe, there will be no change in the spirit! So to be born of the spirit one must know or possess knowlege of God that the spirit can believe in and thereby establish faith in God. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God!

Merit denotes work! Choosing is not work! So where is the merit in choosing?

God's Grace is God's behavior toward mankind that enables mankind to Hear God's word and come to faith in God! God Gifts us with his behavior toward us, but does not give us his grace as is a transfer of a commodity. It is our faith in God that marks us believers as sheep leaving the unbelievers with their status as goats.

You continue to use the word Merit, that denote work. Salvation is not of works lest any man should boast. For in God's graciousness we are saved through faith, and not of ourselves. Salvation is the free gift of God, not of works lest any man have something to boast about.

There is no merit in believing which itself is a choice!

 

That is like saying that someone must think and choose to live before they are conceived.

It is not the way human beings are spiritually. The Bible calls the lost spiritually dead.

As I said before, it wasn't my analogy. It is Christ's. He chose it and expounded it.

Not by the child.

BTW, my salvation was planned by the God who gave me new spiritual birth before the foundation of the world.

That's equivalent to saying that a deaf man can't have physical hearing until after an act of hearing. The cart is before the horse.

You cannot hear spiritual things until you have the spiritual hearing to hear them.

To possess the knowledge of God, believe, and have faith in God, the spirit must be regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

I have answered this before. This isn't physical hearing or else this verse is untrue. If faith comes by physical hearing then all who hear will possess faith.

This is spiritual hearing or discernment in direct connection with physically hearing a proclamation of the gospel.

The hearing referred to here obviously involves understanding and not just "hearing" physically.

So we return to that same question. Why do some physically hear and believe while others physically hear and reject?

Nope:
Superior quality or worth; excellence:
A quality deserving praise or approval; virtue:

A person who chooses well is certainly more virtuous than a person who chooses hell. Also, if it is a choice to have belief that results in faith that causes God to notice and save a man (as you seemed to have implied in the past) then this is a description of God giving His approval... meaning the believer had a quality worthy of approval.

If I give you two multi-faceted choices that boiled down to a simple answer to accept or reject and offer to have a covenant relationship AND by evaluating those to choices by your own understanding you chose the one that ended up making you filthy rich while rejecting the one that left men destitute and dying... then that choice constitutes merit.

A choice that causes a result is an action.... it is effectively work. Corporate execs are paid to make decisions... those decisions have consequences on themselves and others... this is the nature of their "work".

Agreed.

Agreed.

Agreed. You still haven't answered the question I asked.

I use the word merit as it relates to someone doing something that causes another person to give them credit. If man makes a correct choice to believe and that is the basis upon which God accepts him then he is being accepted on the merit of that choice.

Right. But if you are saved due to the merit of a choice that comes from within you in your natural spiritual state then it is not God's grace that saves but man's merit.

I have agreed with you every time you have posted this. It is completely consistent in every way with what I believe.

Two disabled people are sitting in a house next to an active volcano. A guy comes along and says, "The eruption is coming". One guy believes and asks for rescue. The other guy scoffs and rejects help.

The one who asked for help made a good choice. His choice had merit for his prudence and intelligence... the other guy was a fool.

This simply example demonstrates that a good choice is a meritorious act.

 

That does not mean that as living, breathing, working, men we are not able to hear, and believe! It means that we are not able to discern the things of the spirit. It is only when we believe in something that we can see the possibilities of it, the same applies to Spiritual things. If we believe that they exist, then we are able to believe other things about them. Stop denigrating God's created man, he is God's crowning creative achievement, he said so!

The Gospel message is targeted to men who are not yet believers, NEVER TO BELIEVERS. Why is that if unbelievers are dead and not able to receive it?

But you fail to recognize that it is not an analogy, it is an explanation of the truth! NO MAN can enter heaven without having lived this natural life, born of water; and without being born again, in the spirit!

Not according to scripture! Because you must be born of water, Natural childbirth and you must be born again spiritually in order to enter the kingdom of heaven. That was not done for you before the foundation of the world.

You may not be able to hear, that is, heed, understand, comprehend, pay attention with your ears, to spiritual things, but your brain being fed through your natural senses certainly can store the information for your spirit to work with!

It seems to me that because you are not able to comprehend the truth of scripture, that you are not "regenerated", but are instead, still spiritually dead! You fail to understand how God's created man functions! Instead you hold fast to the "literal" biblical text without understanding how it applies.

I have answered you question at least eight times, I will not do it again for you, you refuse to see the truth!

But what you neglect to see is that EVERY man is given the same opportunity to choose! Therefore there is no merit in you choosing right, because the rest could make the exact same choice!

Now if the reward you mentioned were only available to one person then there could be merit in making the right choice. However, Jesus said, "in my father's house are many mansions, if it were not so I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you..." That same promise given by God, Taught by His Apostles, is available to whomever chooses to believe. So there is no merit in choosing to believe because ANY out of ALL can likewise choose!

There is no merit in choosing what every other human can choose! There is no merit when the "reward" for choosing right is available to all who choose the same thing! It is only meritorious when one chooses what no others do....and wins the whole kitten-cabootle!

Our choice to believe is not what saves us, it is the result of that choice that God finds in us where by we are saved. The result of choosing to believe is FAITH, We are saved through FAITH!

Both of them had a choice to make, both of them knew the consequences of their choice. One lived, one died. There is nothing meritorious when both have the same choices. Both could have had the same life saving result, but one chose to live the other chose to die. If there is merit in choosing to live, there is likewise merit in choosing to die! God puts before us life and death, then tells us to choose life! There is nothing meritorious in choosing what we are told to choose! That is nothing more than obedience! It is only when we exceed expectations that we delve into the realm of meritorious. There is no merit in choosing what every other human could choose in obedience to God!