Answering 'Breaking News' continued

[windcatcher]

I'm sure rape is traumatizing too, so is incest, knowing that your parents gave you away to some man so their religion could have more money.
.

I know! Isn't it AWLFUL! Isn't it awlful knowing that your parents gave you away to some man so their religion could have more money. I'm sure rape is traumatizing too, so is incest.


I can understand being offended but I don't understand the obsession to keep discussing rape, incest, and pedophillia. We have separate forums for persons with personal issues and then there is also the private message way of sharing information or asking to back off or confidentially make any request.

There is so much more to this story: You trivialize the trauma on young children being remove from their parents. And you trivialize the importance of good investigation and proof required for integrity and good judgement. And you trivialize the rights of parents to peacably raise their children, free from the fear or manipulation and threat of false reports. And you trivialize others who have interest which move beyond your obsession with s*x and abuse.

 

[windcatcher]

What could have been done differently......if anything? This is a good question:

I would say..... begin from what we know. Joe brings up the point of books and interviews. DonnA and Ann of news reports and papers. So there are out side sources of information and documentation from a personal perspective without fear of alerting the group to the inquiry. If there are inside people or informants... find out what they know regarding this and other like groups. Compare notes.... and flag as a questionably suspect, any information which seems significant but which is also a uniquely reported aborration. Chances are the more commonly reported allegations or significant data will be the easiest to prove, and the less popular traits of this group may be rare, or selectivly known, or underreported as the result of some associated threat or shame.... expect this may be more difficult to uncover and the witness or experience not common knowledge to the group. How will identification of children and spouses in polygamous households be answered: What are the agency's boundaries of investigatory rights: What concession can be withheld and used as bargaining chips to gain cooperation.... and what limits can be set and enforced upon those who refuse to cooperate.

As much as I hate to say this...... I really can't see any way where CPS could investigate without some breaking up of the group. The families were already accustomed to life on the ranch. Would it have been possible to send the men away and leave the mothers and children present on the ranch with the some volunteers from CPS or MH and other social services to temporary living with them or daily visiting and investigating their lifestyle and teachings? Guess there might be constitutional issues regarding occupation and housing? It just seems to me that there should have been some way to keep the mothers and children together...... and some way to develop an honest trust where by the mothers would correctly identify their own children.

I understand DNA was going to be used to establish parentage. Wonder how much longer it will take? Surely some of the matches will confirm or dissuade what so far is only conjecture (out side of the secret and confidential notes of the professional workers).

My personal opinion regarding the recent set back from the court is that...... the state will delay the return of the children to their mothers: the state will make an appeal against the court's findings..... and the state will try harder, both in attempting to uncover evidence supporting the initial action and to produce evidence which will justify the continued separation of the children and break up of this sect.

I think that some of the result may be, eventually, revenue charges against the ranch and its people for tax evasion, welfare fraud, establishing and occupying an institution without state oversight and license and who knows what else?

One value which I mourn: A man used to be king of his castle and sovereign in his own American home. This raid may or may not be justified..... but whether it is or whether it isn't..... the moral code of our own country and society is so broken that it is proving that the constitution, which formed the government to be the preserver of our rights which were deemed to be God given.... is now perhaps an obsolete document to an immoral world. The government it gave us did not make us perfect people.... but it was dependant on people personally motivated by a high degree of morality, to possess their rights with self discipline and restraint. Mercy, we have preachers going to visit and talking smut to 13 y/o with unwraped gift packages of condoms on the seat .... Sadly, even with some abuse which might be proved..... I have a feeling that the people in that ranch or compound actually had more control on the morality in the world they built for themselves than we do in the world we've built for ourselves.

 

[donnA]

I know! Isn't it AWLFUL! Isn't it awlful knowing that your parents gave you away to some man so their religion could have more money. I'm sure rape is traumatizing too, so is incest.


I can understand being offended but I don't understand the obsession to keep discussing rape, incest, and pedophillia. We have separate forums for persons with personal issues and then there is also the private message way of sharing information or asking to back off or confidentially make any request.

There is so much more to this story: You trivialize the trauma on young children being remove from their parents. And you trivialize the importance of good investigation and proof required for integrity and good judgement. And you trivialize the rights of parents to peacably raise their children, free from the fear or manipulation and threat of false reports. And you trivialize others who have interest which move beyond your obsession with s*x and abuse.

I don't have personal issues, I've never been a victim of any of these. But I find it extremely offensive that christians defend this behavior, saying that these people have the right. Children are always the forgotten victioms in socirty, the ones no one cares about. Parents do not have the right to abuse children, to sell them for sex, and I'm sorry you can't figure that out.
So lets just send these children back home to be traumatized and abused, no one really cares anyway do they.

 

[Joe]

What could have been done differently......if anything? This is a good question:

I would say..... begin from what we know. Joe brings up the point of books and interviews. DonnA and Ann of news reports and papers. So there are out side sources of information and documentation from a personal perspective without fear of alerting the group to the inquiry. If there are inside people or informants... find out what they know regarding this and other like groups. Compare notes.... and flag as a questionably suspect, any information which seems significant but which is also a uniquely reported aborration. Chances are the more commonly reported allegations or significant data will be the easiest to prove, and the less popular traits of this group may be rare, or selectivly known, or underreported as the result of some associated threat or shame.... expect this may be more difficult to uncover and the witness or experience not common knowledge to the group. How will identification of children and spouses in polygamous households be answered: What are the agency's boundaries of investigatory rights: What concession can be withheld and used as bargaining chips to gain cooperation.... and what limits can be set and enforced upon those who refuse to cooperate.

As much as I hate to say this...... I really can't see any way where CPS could investigate without some breaking up of the group. The families were already accustomed to life on the ranch. Would it have been possible to send the men away and leave the mothers and children present on the ranch with the some volunteers from CPS or MH and other social services to temporary living with them or daily visiting and investigating their lifestyle and teachings? Guess there might be constitutional issues regarding occupation and housing? It just seems to me that there should have been some way to keep the mothers and children together...... and some way to develop an honest trust where by the mothers would correctly identify their own children.

I understand DNA was going to be used to establish parentage. Wonder how much longer it will take? Surely some of the matches will confirm or dissuade what so far is only conjecture (out side of the secret and confidential notes of the professional workers).

My personal opinion regarding the recent set back from the court is that...... the state will delay the return of the children to their mothers: the state will make an appeal against the court's findings..... and the state will try harder, both in attempting to uncover evidence supporting the initial action and to produce evidence which will justify the continued separation of the children and break up of this sect.

I think that some of the result may be, eventually, revenue charges against the ranch and its people for tax evasion, welfare fraud, establishing and occupying an institution without state oversight and license and who knows what else?

One value which I mourn: A man used to be king of his castle and sovereign in his own American home. This raid may or may not be justified..... but whether it is or whether it isn't..... the moral code of our own country and society is so broken that it is proving that the constitution, which formed the government to be the preserver of our rights which were deemed to be God given.... is now perhaps an obsolete document to an immoral world. The government it gave us did not make us perfect people.... but it was dependant on people personally motivated by a high degree of morality, to possess their rights with self discipline and restraint. Mercy, we have preachers going to visit and talking smut to 13 y/o with unwraped gift packages of condoms on the seat .... Sadly, even with some abuse which might be proved.....

I have a feeling that the people in that ranch or compound actually had more control on the morality in the world they built for themselves than we do in the world we've built for ourselves.

<edited - LE> How the FLDS lives is not "Moral" and better than most of us live, as you say. That's crossing a line.

Their religion goes against Christianity. Remember our value system as Christians? Or did you forget that is what you called yourself when you joined the BB? Multiple wives are not a part of the Christian value system.

We are not to promote any religion which goes against Christianity on this message board.

Your constant questioning of CPS, giving abusers the benefit of the doubt when proof is shown, and constantly questioning whether any abuse occured shows you are very confused.

This is akin to many of our hom*exual threads. People come on trying to question every posters motives, even twisting scripure trying to make hom*xuality appear "acceptable".

You are reported.

 

[windcatcher]

I don't have personal issues, I've never been a victim of any of these. But I find it extremely offensive that christians defend this behavior, saying that these people have the right. Children are always the forgotten victioms in socirty, the ones no one cares about. Parents do not have the right to abuse children, to sell them for sex, and I'm sorry you can't figure that out.
So lets just send these children back home to be traumatized and abused, no one really cares anyway do they.

Children and adults have the right to justice. Justice requires proof. Proof will be uncovered and the courts and juries will hear it. If that offends you, then so be it. :thumbs: :laugh:

 

[LadyEagle]

Closing this thread

Closing this thread with prejudice. One on this topic has already been closed - no need for personal attacks or any posts which go against accepted mainstream Biblical teachings on here.

Lady Eagle

 

[donnA]

Children and adults have the right to justice. Justice requires proof. Proof will be uncovered and the courts and juries will hear it. If that offends you, then so be it. :thumbs: :laugh:

What offends me is a christian defending child abusers.

 

[windcatcher]

You are a very sick lady, and certainly not a Christian. How the FLDS lives is not "Moral" and better than most of us live, as you say. That's crossing a line.

Their religion goes against Christianity. Remember our value system as Christians? Or did you forget that is what you called yourself when you joined the BB? Multiple wives are not a part of the Christian value system.

We are not to promote any religion which goes against Christianity on this message board.

Your constant questioning of CPS, giving abusers the benefit of the doubt when proof is shown, and constantly questioning whether any abuse occured shows you are very confused.

This is akin to many of our homosexual threads. People come on trying to question every posters motives, even twisting scripure trying to make homosexuality appear "acceptable".

You are reported.

Oh, is that you Joe? I meant to say 'Hi! earlier.

OH, BTW, you have a right to your opinion.

I feel so sorry that for many folks on this board; too young to have the experience of a quieter world in which to grow with fewer tvs, fewer radios, just 45 RPM's and I never had nor missed those; The freedom of school with kids from age 5 1/2 to age 19, grades 1 - 12, knowing all the kids, and their families; I never heard one swear word after my dad retired from the navy and we moved from Norfolk/Chesapeak to country life.......not from kids anyway, nor teachers, nor other folks...... and seldom from my dad.....oh he would really have to be flustered! We played hard, worked hard and had a good life. No drugs in school or kids or homes: We could give and get hugs without anyone thinking 'nasty thoughts'. At school, you never dated a guy more than twice unless you both were really really serious....cause you already knew each other.... likes, dislikes, family, values, politics and pets. Every day at school, we had home room: We took turns, kids led devotions: Most would read from the Psalms in the Bible. some might read poetry. We said the "Lord's prayer", pledged allegience and sang the Anthem, The Star Spangled Banner. We played hopscotch, kick ball, soft ball, baseball, football, volley and basketball, and dodge ball on a red clay dirt court. Girls never wore any thing 'sleeveless, or short: Pants were rare exceptions and always worn at 'pedal pusher' length or below. Songs were sappy with sentiment. There were fewer activities. If it didn't happen at the churches in the community, 'it' didn't happen any where.....'cept maybe at school..... fall festival around halloween, Christmas concert, piano concert, and junior and senior plays.... Baptisms in the summer were a great time at the creek, and a few bold enough to get their clothes wet might take a swim afterwards. There was no porn, no stripping, no ads on tv regarding s*x drugs or products. Kids knew where babies came from..... chickens hatched eggs, cows had calves.... which they nursed and also were milked for food..... and dogs and kittens had their kin..... and most kids correctly came to similar understandings about life without a whole lot of complication. Children today can never know the innocence that used to be in this world. From birth to death they are now exposed to drugs, and wars, and diseases, and s*xuality, and values which contrast with those in their homes: God fearing parents are purplexed in their attempt to raise God fearing children in a godless world. Our society used to suppport their efforts and honor the sanctity of the home.....intruding only in extreme instances. People used to believe in their friends, neighbors, and co-workers: A man's word was his bond.... to a bank, a court or a friend. People didn't practice 'optimism...... they were optimistic: They believed in God: they believed in helping and their neighbors help if need arose: they believed in thinking the very best of all they knew and most every one they didn't until proven otherwise. Today every one is suspect and subject to the judgement of others. And sadly, against Cor 13, people take pleasure in pointing fingers: To

So go ahead, Joe, report me if it gives you great pleasure in the LORD. If it would not give you pleasure in the Lord.... then, for your conscience sake, think carefully about that rock in your hand.

 

[windcatcher]

What offends me is a christian defending child abusers.

Oh I wasn't aware that any one had defended them. If you are willing to accept any and every story then so be it. I'm not so easily satisfied.

I want to see proof or hear of charges or evidence before I condemn. Teen age mothers is not evidence: Teenage mothers who report that older men fathered their babies and were not their husbands or whose marriage was force... is evidence. Teenage mothers who admitt they were raped is evidence. In no way does this make these mothers guilty or participants of child abuse. These mothers are the victims. If you really believe crimes have been committed BY THE MEN, why do you persist in punishing the innocent women and children by keeping children away from their mother's?

It is suggestive of manipulation..... i.e. we wont take your children away if you fess up and tell us ......... if you cooperate with us ......... if you tell us what we want........ If you'll confirm what we were told....... if you will identify.....

you might get your children back.

 

[donnA]

I'm wondering who you think is too young on this board, since I have grown children and grandchildren, I wouldn't be one of those.

There was no porn

you'd have to be pretty old for this, because porn has been around as long cameras, and before. In searching for vintage black and whites for art collages I ran across a site that was 1880's porn pics, that is sick, and here I thought it was a more modern invention.

God fearing parents are purplexed in their attempt to raise God fearing children in a godless world. Our society used to suppport their efforts and honor the sanctity of the home.....intruding only in extreme instances

FLDS are not God fearing people trying to raise their children in a godly manner. They are not christians, so they can not be God fearing. As Joes said , they go against christianity, You keep referring to them as christians. Since when does christianity teach multiple 'wives' ,sexual abuse of children, and the whole long sorted listed of anti christian activity? You are affirming and promoting a religion not christian here on the BB.
Intruding only in extreme instances?
What do you think sex slaves, rapes, forced incest, child abuse is if not extreme?

 

[donnA]

Oh I wasn't aware that any one had defended them. If you are willing to accept any and every story then so be it. I'm not so easily satisfied.

I want to see proof or hear of charges or evidence before I condemn. Teen age mothers is not evidence: Teenage mothers who report that older men fathered their babies and were not their husbands or whose marriage was force... is evidence. Teenage mothers who admitt they were raped is evidence. In no way does this make these mothers guilty or participants of child abuse. These mothers are the victims. If you really believe crimes have been committed BY THE MEN, why do you persist in punishing the innocent women and children by keeping children away from their mother's?

It is suggestive of manipulation..... i.e. we wont take your children away if you fess up and tell us ......... if you cooperate with us ......... if you tell us what we want........ If you'll confirm what we were told....... if you will identify.....

you might get your children back.

Proof has already been given on these threads, you refuse to accept anything to goes against your unbiblical views of the FLDS. One proof was even a video of a testimony of a girls expereince in this particular FLDS sect. Yet you refuse even eye witness testimony.
Nothing will satisfy you, in your opinion these people have done nothing wrong and have nothing to answer for.

 

[windcatcher]

These mothers may not be Christians........

But these mothers are human:
They have flesh, blood, and feelings.
It doesn't mean they don't love their children.

These mothers may not be Christians.....
But that doesn't mean they can't be.

 

[windcatcher]

Proof has already been given on these threads, you refuse to accept anything to goes against your unbiblical views of the FLDS. One proof was even a video of a testimony of a girls expereince in this particular FLDS sect. Yet you refuse even eye witness testimony.
Nothing will satisfy you, in your opinion these people have done nothing wrong and have nothing to answer for.

The Proof? Remember this? ....... Hey, here is the proof you provided:

More recent reporting has shown that the legal apparatus intended to protect abused children in Texas was strained to the breaking point by what turned out to be one of the largest child welfare cases in American history. Earlier today, attorneys for Child Protective Services confirmed that 15 of the 31 “child” mothers placed in foster care were actually adults. One is 27. A 14-year-old removed as a child mother apparently has no children. The state had raided the ranch after a 16-year-old girl called an abuse hotline saying she had been beaten and raped by her 50-year-old husband, but that girl has not been found. And interim custody placements made parental visits difficult, if not impossible. Seized children were not even permitted to hear sect prophet Warren Jeffs’ name. The original custody proceedings had been hasty, chaotic, and confused. And estimated court costs were being projected at $2.25 million (before lawyers’ fees).

Read carefully...... what sounds familiar has changed from that which you initially presented or expected me to believe

Hey, don't sweat it..... news happens, assumptions are made and presented by reporters. We believe them ......and even more so if it supports a bias we already have..... which I admit I do.

 

[Revmitchell]

Which means that their were sixteen (16) children (minors) who were mothers. Certainly quite a problem

 

[windcatcher]

The same reporter compares FLDS at YFZ with Guantanamo, and poignantly states:

I myself find the FLDS church to be a rather odious institution, and I’ve no doubt that there are some real bad guys being detained in Guantanamo Bay.

The problem is that by ignoring established policies and not doing a thorough investigation, in both cases there are large numbers of people suffering who aren’t guilty of any crime, which is bad enough and something that our judicial system is supposed to have evolved to avoid (sadly, it’s still not that great at it).

Worse still, as a consequnce of bungled investigations and bad procedures, you also end up with the legal instiutions in both cases being comprimised in terms of their legitimacy, the upshot of which means that the guilty go unpunished.

----Better said that I could.

However, one thing....

The insistance we place upon these agencies to perform..... when they are in the best position to know their jobs and resources....... the more we insist that they explain themselves and give us answers before they are ready..... We may be making our demands and pressure an additional stumbling block and distraction for them in doing their work.

 

[Joe]

I have a feeling that the people in that ranch or compound actually had more control on the morality in the world they built for themselves than we do in the world we've built for ourselves.

You have personally insulted everything we stand for here as Christians

These are polygamists, they do not hold to a higher level morality than we do as Christians here

Committing adultery, breaking laws (illegal marriages) Men getting their many mistresses pregnant, and worshipping a false God is NOT a higher standard of morality than we hold to as Christians.

I have no idea what LadyEagle was thinking labeling my words a personal attack to you. You are not a Christian, your mind is not well. You need to accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior. I'll pray for you. I do care, that is the reason I told you the truth. At least you quoted my words, so they are there for all to see.

When you compare every christians morality on the Bb to a bunch of k*nky adulter*rs accused of child abuse, then deem US Chrisitans to hold to a lesser standard of morality than these folks, expect to hear what I told you. I can't imagine what you see our intimate relations practices to be if this is a higher level of morality than what you imagine we hold to as Christians. Or even most unbelievers.
This is utter filth.

 

[windcatcher]

Which means that their were sixteen (16) children (minors) who were mothers. Certainly quite a problem

Sad, isn't it?

This still does not make clear how many of these girls conceived before the legal age of consent. And there are no reports of complaints made by any of the women charging they were forced or raped. :tear:

 

[Revmitchell]

Sad, isn't it?

This still does not make clear how many of these girls conceived before the legal age of consent. And there are no reports of complaints made by any of the women charging they were forced or raped. :tear:

Minors don't get to decide that. The mere fact that they are minors indicts someone of rape. And in cults like this people are often brainwashed.

 

[donnA]

These mothers may not be Christians........

But these mothers are human:
They have flesh, blood, and feelings.
It doesn't mean they don't love their children.

These mothers may not be Christians.....
But that doesn't mean they can't be.

If they have 'feeings' about thei children, why then do they hand them over to sexually molested?

 

[donnA]

The Proof? Remember this? ....... Hey, here is the proof you provided:
Read carefully...... what sounds familiar has changed from that which you initially presented or expected me to believe

Hey, don't sweat it..... news happens, assumptions are made and presented by reporters. We believe them ......and even more so if it supports a bias we already have..... which I admit I do.

You think I have assumed this woman who gave a testimony of her life who at 14 was forced into incest is only an assumption on my part. Yeah right. If you can't believe a witness, a personal testimony then who do you beleive. you? I can only assume then when you hear someone in church give a testimony of their lives you ask for proof or you call it only an assumption and do not beleive it. That is what your saying here.