Answering the major objection against Calvinism

It is only sensible to view the biblical fact as God granting faith , grace , salvation , repentance to those whom He choses . He "gifts" us with the aforementioned .

 

You have everything to fear Psalms. It is you that must stay with Christ or you go to Hell. Either you are completely confident that you will do so, which is a thing to fear in itself, or you live in fear of falling away. Which is it, a complete trust in yourself like I trust Christ or a fear of having to trust yourself?

Christ keeps me. ...To those who have been called, who are loved by God the Father and kept by Jesus Christ: Jude 1. You don't believe that do you?

You are kept in Christ by the fear of the consequences and that is not love, love drives out fear. The one who is kept in Christ by fear is not made perfect in love.

So you believe you can walk away even though you are kept by Christ? If we walk away from Jesus... You do not believe the scripture I gave you otherwise you would suddenly see that the Father and Son have you encapsulated, John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."

If you can overcome God you can walk away but people who believe overcome the world not God. Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God. 1 John 5:5.
Rev 2:7 ...To him who overcomes the right to eat from the tree of life...
Rev 2:11 ...He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.
Rev 2:17 ...To him who overcomes, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give him a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to him who receives it.
Rev 2:26 To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations...
Rev 3:5 He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
Rev 3:11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12 Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it.
Rev 3:21 To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne...
Rev 21:7 He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son.

All that is mine now. Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

1JN 4:4 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.
JN 16:33 "I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world."

Peace Psalms, not fear.

john.

 

Matthew 10:34
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.35For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her motherinlaw—36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'[Micah 7:6 ]

Until we live by every word that comes from the mouth of God you will never know the truth.

There is no fear in Christ only apart from Him. Remember be strong and courages ,strong and courages, strong and courages. Endure to the end and you will be saved.

I don't live in fear, but know who is my strength and His name is Jesus.

James 5:19My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, 20remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

Hebrews 3:12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.

I do what God has called me to do.

 

Who are them

It is obvious who He predestined before hand those who are humble and meek who trust in the name of the Lord, those are whom God said He was going to keep. We trust and remain in Jesus and He will change us. It is not our work that we believe, but the work of God, so trust in Him through Jesus Christ. God does not grant us faith He gives it to us through His word, it is our decision to accept it or not. He gave it to the young rich ruler, but He walked away.

Jesus said to the fishermen, follow me and I will make you fishers of men.

 

Burma Shave

 

It seems that "Arminians" have objections to the idea that God, in effect, predestined some to reprobation. The logical objection would be that if God reprobated them how is it the fault of the individual...

I, in agreement with Brain Armstrong, think that Calvin might not quite have viewed it that way. I think in Calvin's thought predestination is an afterthought. An individual's predestination or reprobation must in a sense be in God's will since that which happens must be in accordance with God's will. But the idea that we should view it all as starting with predestination owes more to Theodore Beza et al than Calvin.

One cannot read the Bible and not observe that there is at times tension between different writings. This owes to the fact that different authors were writing to different audiences with different needs.

While I am a great admirer of Calvin himself - and would definitely sympathize more with "calvinism" than with "Arminianism" I would assert that "Calvinism" as it is practiced attempts (too much) to systematize things. God cannot be placed neatly in a box. There is no amount of prooftexting that will remove some of the tension inherent in the scriptures.

Before the accusations of "parroting R.T. Kendall" begin to fly let me say that I do believe that Calvin was a "Calvinist". But I do not think he was a systematist to the degree that some would like.

 

I do not think Kendall had (has) it right on Calvinism or John Calvin's work . The views of the one who preceded him in the Westminster pulpit -- Dr.D.M.L-J was more on the mark . And L-J was a better historian as well .

John Calvin was indeed a systematic theologian . He was the first to put major doctrines together in a cogent form . Melanchthon statrted the ball rolling when John Calvin was a teenager . But Calvin exceeded all before him and quite a few beyond his time . It's said that Beza took Calvinism to a more extreme form , but aside from the lapsarian issue I don't believe that's the case .

I do think that some theologians became rather scholastic in their Calvinisticalloriented works . Men like Turretin , Van Mastricht and Witsius did some over-refinement though .

 

A correction to post #120

 

Genesis 6:5 says "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." If this is true, man is not capable of "believing" God. Man who only has evil thoughts cannot recognize God's word as truth. Even though he may think he believes God, just try searching your heart and mind and see if you can honestly say that word is true. You cannot "honestly" say it's true because as Jesus points out, we are of our Father the Devil "...there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own" John 8:44. Through my perception, belief in God is impossible. That is why Jesus says that we must deny ourselves. Denying self is the key to faith in God. We cannot serve two masters. Those who see that "There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25. "...the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God and shall live." John 5:25. When death comes to my heart, denying myself is easy and so believing God is possible. The reason why so many folks have a hard time believing is that they are trying to do it with their will and understanding without denying themselves. Jesus said we could not come to him unless it was given to us to do so. People think this means God only gave it to those that came to him. That's not true. God gave it to all but not all received. Those who came of their own will without denying themselves like the man who came without a wedding garment were cast out because they didn't receive from God first. You can discern who is called and who is come of their own will/desire. Jesus called the Syro-Phonecian woman a dog to illustrate the difference. There are so many people who "believe" in God w/o acknowledging His righteous judgement. They do not believe Gen 6:5 or John 8:44 or any other word that speaks to the 100% depravity of man because they believe in their thoughts.

 

Edifish:

Not all men were totally depraved.

Genesis 6
5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Genesis 6
8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

9 This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God.

 

God in a box

Men have always wanted to place God in a box and try to say this is God and God cannot go outside of it.

The jewish chosen of God added many things to the word of God to make it thier's also.

Calvinism today is efluenced still by hyper-calvinist, but saying it's O.K. to spread the Gospel with stressing God doesn't want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, which is contrary to the bible.

Satan tempted Jesus with scripture also, but Jesus did live by every word that came from the mouth of God. Jesus never denied scripture but added to the scripture that the devil gave with another scripture to clarify the truth of the word of God.

When men cannot comprehend the word of God instead of turning to God for understanding they turn to other men who is as wicked as them for understanding.

It isn't our job to understand the word of God, but believe and trust in God for understanding. It is very hard for men to just believe and not understanding why, but as amy was saying that is a part of denying ourselves.

 

Not at all. We are all in danger and potentially have a life threatening situation. It is not until the vitals of a person fall below a certain level that life support is absolutely necessary, in order for life to continue. You would not start cpr on a person who is not in cardiac arrest. I gave the example of a person in an auto accident who is trapped... they do not submit to the rescuer... they can not. Many who are trapped will fight while the rescue is in progress. Pain does a lot of wierd things to people.
What I am saying is that a rescue is just that... bringing people from a point of certain death to a chance of life. Most, but as you say, not all will want to live.

Absolutely! That is what the bible says... I don't wanna argue with it.
Ephesians 2: 1. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2. in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
This does not mean that a person is dead or unable to hear or see. It means they are dead spiritually, unable to see spiritually or hear spiritually in a saving way.

Absolutely! We are not the ones who put to death sin... Jesus Christ is. He put sin completely away from us. We are not however to continue to live in sin, we have no license to sin. I think you would agree that we fall short daily however.

It wouldn't if you viewed yourself as having put to death sin. This was Jesus' work.

I agree partly with you. We are responsible. If the Spirit of God lives within you, you can not continue to live in sin. Not without the Spirit making it unbearable for you. There is also a view of being saved eternally and being saved in this life... do you agree? There are consequences in this life for the believer who sins.

I've seen this happen before also. The victim should have had a DNR (do not resuscitate) order from a judge readily available for the rescuers to see. Again, i've already explained the difference between the view of one putting to death sin in their own lives, and Christ putting to death sin. You would agree that you have sin in your life?

1. Saving faith. God given because you would *not* believe in Him had He not given it to you.
2. Yes, actionable faith.

You lost me there brother. Will you be more clear?

I'm still not clear what you are saying Allan. Regeneration is absolutely necessary for one to have faith. Regeneration is the cause of faith. I would put regeneration before saving faith... if you could measure that small amount of time difference. The would appear to occur to us at once.

I'm a little dense as you know Allan.......lol. Maybe after you make yourself more clear for me, I can see your view more clearly. Maybe not. :laugh:

 

Allan, I know you are about as God centered as a calvinist - non-calvinist can be. :laugh: Really, I do respect you very much... as you know.

I preach and teach God centeredness. All of my teaching and preaching has God in the center, not man. When I speak of our responsibility, I still stress our inability.... that only God can accomplish in us, to do what we should do as followers of Christ.

I believe that we have to die to self, and tell God that we can not do any good, any saving act or any act that saves us in this life. We have to die to self and depend fully on God. I believe that is what is meant by picking up our cross, and following Jesus. We have to put on the armor, yes. But it is the armor of God that protects us. He gives us the armor in a supernatural way. As long as we depend upon our ability, we will fail.

Gal. 2: 20. "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the {life} which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

I teach that we have to live in Him, and depend on Him. I put more of the responsibility upon God to do that which I can not do. I stress our surrender to Him.

This is in no way saying that you do not do these things. The difference is how we teach, I think. Maybe you teach the same as I.

 

And some do not respond to that life giving effort just as some will also refuse it when they KNOW it could save them.

Agreed. However it is agreed in the sense that the person Of or By themselves can not see or hear, but what God reveals they both see and hear. God must reveal but man must recieve that truth God reveals as we see throughout scripture. (ie. denying the truth, changing the truth, rejecting the truth as says the scripture of those whom God gives over to their sins AFTER showing them Truth)

Ok, here in is the problem. Scripture states that we ARE dead and this 'dead' refers to the old life of Sin. Does this term 'dead' have a different meaning than the scripture of "we ARE dead in our trespasses and sins'. This is what I am contending, that the definition is one sided. IF 'dead' means 'dead' (as in being incapable unless God Himself change us to respond approprietely), then its definition should be maintained in the other verse stating "we are dead (our old nature or TO sin)". That means that we do not need to worry about sinning because unless God change us to do what is not now natural then we (by nature) will not do it. We Are Dead to it.

Do you see what I am getting at? Both instances state we are dead to something and yet in the C's veiw their must be a different definition regarding what dead means.

Granted, but you must choose to walk in that truth and yet there are times (though dead to sin) you will sin. Yes, it was the work of Christ but it is something the believer must choose to follow in spite of his flesh or else come under the disiplining hand of the Father.

Yes, I agree with you here. But do you see the contention I am addressing.
I stated:

We are dead in and yet must choose.... just as we are dead to and still yet we must choose. In either case 'we are dead...' and in either case choice is still the desired will of God. We must believe the Truths God reveals. (whether sinner or saint - we are responsible for what we do with His revealed truth)

That is all I am stating.

Who me...with sin? *cough* Next question please. :laugh:
Of course, but the putting do death is still a choice that can be lived out or denied by the believer. And we are alive in Christ and dead to our old lives. Yet we can reject the Spirits convicting and act on sin to which we are dead to because of our new nature. Is it so hard to bring that same contrast to other side were by a sinner dead in sin according to his nature is able to act against his nature by choice IF (and only IF) God gives the opportunity through revealed truth and the moment God the Holy Spirit is dealing with them. (just as the beleiver can go against their nature when the flesh via satan or the world provides such opportunity through such choices.)

Ok.
What is the point of regeneration if God also must give you Faith along with it.
You state that regeneration is necessary but in what way. If God gives you a new nature through regeneration WHY does God need to give you faith since due to the regeneration you will believe anyway for it is in your nature to believe.

So then what is the reason for God having to give you Faith if that is the natural process of your new nature. Does not having a new nature NOT controled by the old nature necessitate that one can now give themselves willingly to God due to their new nature. What good is this God given faith when God has regenerated and made them new and no longer enslaved to the old nature able to do and go against it at will?

C's state that we can not believe in or on God because we are slaves to our old nature and not able. But this is done away with in the new nature and the slavery abolished. Man is now by the power of God able to respond to God but the C's in the same breath state that even being now able to respond man can not. Why not? Do you believe that man in the new man can desire the salvation of God but will not obtain it till God give him faith? If that be truth, then why does the man yet desire to be saved? It is because he has believed and that belief IS Faith.

I contend the arguement that God regenerates man and then gives man faith, to be incorrect scritpurally. Faith is not given by God for the scripture do not contend so, but does contend regeneration is given or done by God. Faith is the means through which God gives salvation AND it is that same faith we excersized, that we continue to use in and through out our lives.
But that is another (IMO)

I doubt it is you who are dense. It is (I know) in how I write which is lousy. :laugh: But, I am what God made me. Oh well. I love ya brother - Keep the faith and I'm still praying for you and your church. :thumbs:

 

That can get you into alot of trouble with a few on the BB. But I know you don't care about appearances just God and His purposes. :wavey:

I say:
Amen and Amen to that.

It is about God and Him living in and through us. Yet God states we must yeild our lives to His leading, guiding, and directing. I think we have lost the preaching of yeildedness or surrender in our churches. Stop looking for what you desire and focus instead on that which God desires. Sometimes they meet and sometimes they diverge but whom do you serve - God or you?

There is this one gentlemen in my bible study with whom I counsiled. He wants to move, get a new Job, new vehicle, and find a better church (there). But everything is falling through for him. He can't seem to sell his house, his truck's transmission went out, no job is seriously looking at him. So I asked him what has God revealed to you about you moving...Is this what He has asked of you? He stated God hasn't answered him on it. He has been supposedly (off and on) seeking Gods counsil on it.

After a bit more listening, I asked "If God were to ask you to stay here, keep your job, your truck and continue in your church would you be content?" He just looked at me and looked down saying "No".
I told him that to me it sounded like he was seeking his own will and asking God to come along side it and bless it. Instead of asking God His will and obeying it with peace and contentment no matter what it is. I said "from what you have told me here, you don't know what Gods will is...and that my friend is your first thing that needs to be set right through repentence."

He is now somewhat upset with me because I told him he doesn't know what Gods will is for him. He then (2 weeks later) proceeded to tell me that he has done many things not knowing if it was Gods will and then later realizing that it was.

I stated but scripture states you CAN know Gods will for you. Specifically if God wants you to move, sell your house, get a new job - all of which will be apart of God saying go because He has a purpose for you there, just as He does in Him saying stay.

Then he stated "well there are many times I did things and new later they were not His will".

All I was trying to show him the hour and half discussion is that if we seek the face of God in our decisions we are never left ashamed. We might not know why but we can know it is what God desired.

 

He is a fortunate man to have you to minister/counsel him. God bless you brother.

 

You know just what to say to humble me. Thank you for that. And may God our Father richly bless you and the spiritual family He is/will be begatting through your minstry for His glory.