Anthropomorphic Language

[Van]

One more point, does God need to "know" what might occur in the future to make a promise for what will (with 100% certainty) happen in the future? Nope. God fulfills His promises, He intervenes to the extent necessary to make them happen.

 

[Van]

A scriptural example of God 'remembering no more':

After all the wickedness Israel had done after God had redeemed them out of the House of Bondage (unbelief, disobedience, murmuring, idolatry, fornication, rebellion, etc.), and even with Balaam wanting so badly to curse Israel, God made Balaam to declare:
He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob; Neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: Jehovah his God is with him, And the shout of a king is among them. Nu 23:21

Even in unbelief and disobedience they were as righteous as Christ in the eyes of God. (Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin. Ro 4:8)"

Yes, scripture is clear, that result of God "remembering" our sins is punishment for those sins. So the idea is God not only withholds punishment, but He does not hold the sin over the persons head, like a deferred sentence. Jer. 31:34.

 

[Rye]

I could go on, but you get the idea, the "everything imaginable" definition of omniscience is unbiblical.

I think that the root of our disagreement is that you're saying all-knowing does not mean all-knowing and I'm saying God changing His mind does not mean He changes His mind.

Funny enough, I looked back in the archives to see if this subject had been discussed before. I was surprised to learn that Leighton Flowers was once an active member here and you had engaged with him and others on this very topic.

Anthropomorphism

Anthropomorphism: the representation of objects (especially a god) as having human form or traits (wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn) Why is it that some theologians will dismiss some parts of the OT as anthropomorphic language, such as when God appears to change his mind or "relent" at the...

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After reading through it, I believe that I have the full scope of what your position is. Obviously, we both interpret things differently. I have to put together what all of scripture says and I do not believe that you can define the nature of God with an interaction He had with Moses and Abraham.

At the end of the day, who is right and who is wrong? Only God knows. All I can do is try to remain humble and listen to what the other side has to say as respectfully as I can.

 

[Van]

I think that the root of our disagreement is that you're saying all-knowing does not mean all-knowing and I'm saying God changing His mind does not mean He changes His mind.

SNIP

Yes, you can define our "disagreement" in your terms and indicate only God knows the correct view.

I am saying with scripture, all knowing only means all of whatever in contextually in view. I proved this by citing Jesus was said to be "all knowing" yet did not know all imaginable things, such as the time of His return.

You are saying God cannot change His response according to His conditional covenants because He cannot change His mind as humans do. I said that is a non-sequitur. i.e. the first truth does not require that the second assertion is true.

Thirdly, you seemed to deny God can say what will happen in the future, not because He necessarily knows the future, but simply because He can fulfill or make His prophecy occur.

 

[Rye]

I proved this by citing Jesus was said to be "all knowing" yet did not know all imaginable things, such as the time of His return.

I’m not invalidating the other points you made, but I would like to focus on this for a moment.

If Jesus does not know something that the Father knows, would that casue disruption in the Godhead?

The way I see it, when Jesus made predictions, that was reflective of His divine nature and the things He didn’t know were reflective of His human nature. In other words, there were times that the Apostles only saw one side of the same coin. He absolutely knows everything in His divine nature but that was not always demonstrated by his human nature. You could say He chose not to know because He was being subservient to the Father.


Philippians 2:7 - But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

 

[Van]

I’m not invalidating the other points you made, but I would like to focus on this for a moment.

If Jesus does not know something that the Father knows, would that casue disruption in the Godhead?

The way I see it, when Jesus made predictions, that was reflective of His divine nature and the things He didn’t know were reflective of His human nature. In other words, there were times that the Apostles only saw one side of the same coin. He absolutely knows everything in His divine nature but that was not always demonstrated by his human nature. You could say He chose not to know because He was being subservient to the Father.


Philippians 2:7 - But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Once again you seek to invalidate John 21:17.

John 21:17 NASB
He *said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me?” Peter was hurt because He said to him the third time, “Do you love Me?” And he said to Him, “Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You.” Jesus *said to him, “Tend My sheep.

Peter is referring not to Jesus as a human with human knowledge, but to God incarnate, with divine knowledge. The contexual meaning is Jesus knew all about the people He encountered, including Peter because Jesus knew the extent of Peter's love for Jesus.

And again you seem to claim predictions or prophecy are based on knowledge of the future, rather than on God's purpose and plan to cause that future circumstance to occur.

Next, you ignore that God said "now I know" indicating God did not have prior knowledge, but again you make the claim "knows everything imaginable.

 

[Van]

1 John 3:18-20 NASB
Little children, let’s not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.
We will know by this that we are of the truth, and will set our heart at ease before Him,
that if our heart condemns us, that God is greater than our heart, and He knows all things.

Does this passage teach God knows "all imaginable things" or God knows if we are lip service "Christians" and if we Love His word in deed and truth? Thus even if our heart condemns us, for we fall short, God is greater than our heart and His mercy will prevail.

At the heart of this problem, is translating "all" (pas) as all things. A contexual translation would be all these things, pointing the reading to the contexual meaning or scope of "all."

 

[Van]

A brief review of verses used to support "omniscience" as God knowing everything imaginable, rather than everything He chooses to know, reveals the following:

Several verses indicate God knows all about the people He encounters, such as

1. 1 John 3:20
2. Psalms 139:1-4
3. Matthew 10:30
4. Hebrews 4:13
5. Psalm 44:21
6. Acts 1:24
​

In these and other verses God can know whatever He chooses to know. He can choose to search our hearts, and therefore could choose for His purpose not to search the heart.

Another aspect of God's divine knowledge is that it is beyond our comprehension. Thus the claim that God cannot choose not to know by searching our heart, is a claim beyond our comprehension.

1. Psalm 147:5 - His knowledge is innumerable not infinite.
2. Psalm 147:4
3. Isaiah 40:28
4. Romans 11:33
​

 

[Rye]

And again you seem to claim predictions or prophecy are based on knowledge of the future, rather than on God's purpose and plan to cause that future circumstance to occur.

If I understand correctly, you're asserting that He only knows point A and point B but chooses not to know what happens in the middle. How can any prediction come to pass if God chooses not to know how events in time will unfold?

Acts 4:26-28 - The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, for to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Did God choose not to know the circumstances that lead up to Pontius Pilate's birth, his rise to power, his decision to allow the Jews to kill their Messiah? Did he determine before that it would happen exactly that way, or when the moment came He saw that all the right pieces were on the board to work with?

Next, you ignore that God said "now I know" indicating God did not have prior knowledge, but again you make the claim "knows everything imaginable.

What is "now" to an infinite God that exists outside of time? He sees the past, present, and future happening "now".

2 Peter 3:8 - But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

At the heart of this problem, is translating "all" (pas) as all things. A contexual translation would be all these things, pointing the reading to the contexual meaning or scope of "all."

I certainly affirm that in many cases "all" means "all of something".

 

[Godisgracious1031]

Exodus 32:12-14 - Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people. Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever. And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Numbers 23:19 - God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

The same author wrote in one place that God repented and in another place wrote that God never repents. There is either a contradiction or a misunderstanding on our part. We know it can’t be a contradiction so how do we make sense of this?

Isaiah 55:8-9 - For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

The simple answer is that the human nature can’t comprehend the Divine nature. God does not change His mind the same way that we change our mind. In other words, when we change our minds it is to adopt a different opinion or plan. When God “changes His mind” it is not to be understood the same way.

1 Samuel 8:10-18 - And Samuel told all the words of the Lord unto the people that asked of him a king. And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots. And he will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties; and will set them to ear his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and instruments of his chariots. And he will take your daughters to be confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers. And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants. And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants. And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work. He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants. And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the Lord will not hear you in that day.

1 Samuel 15:11 - It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the Lord all night.

God could not have “changed His mind” if He knew ahead of time what was going to happen. He could have simply prevented it from happening in the first place.

Why does the Holy Spirit communicate to us this way? God intends to accomplish His purposes in time by communicating to His creatures in a way that we can comprehend.

God can’t be persuaded to be better than He is. When we engage in intercessory prayer, are shown how we grieve the Holy Spirit, this is how God persuades us to be better than we are.

I heard this reply before, God is not a man that makes a promise and then just change it. He changed his mind on the evil since they went back to God. He is just. Why should he punish them if they turn away from it?

 

[Van]

If I understand correctly, you're asserting that He only knows point A and point B but chooses not to know what happens in the middle. How can any prediction come to pass if God chooses not to know how events in time will unfold?

Acts 4:26-28 - The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, for to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Did God choose not to know the circumstances that lead up to Pontius Pilate's birth, his rise to power, his decision to allow the Jews to kill their Messiah? Did he determine before that it would happen exactly that way, or when the moment came He saw that all the right pieces were on the board to work with?



What is "now" to an infinite God that exists outside of time? He sees the past, present, and future happening "now".

2 Peter 3:8 - But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.



I certainly affirm that in many cases "all" means "all of something".

Hi Rye:
Based on your response, I have concluded my efforts to explain my view of scripture will fail. Again and again, you ask questions that ignore what I said. For example God only chooses A and B, when I said we do not know the extent of what God chooses to know. Or your irrational claim if God has determined to cause something, He would start to late to bring it about.

Goodbye Sir,

Van

 

[Van]

A brief review of verses used to support "omniscience" as God knowing everything imaginable, rather than everything He chooses to know, reveals the following:

Several verses indicate God knows all about the people He encounters, such as

​

1. 1 John 3:20​

2. Psalms 139:1-4​

3. Matthew 10:30​

4. Hebrews 4:13​

5. Psalm 44:21​

6. Acts 1:24​

​

In these and other verses God can know whatever He chooses to know. He can choose to search our hearts, and therefore could choose for His purpose not to search the heart.

Another aspect of God's divine knowledge is that it is beyond our comprehension. Thus the claim that God cannot choose not to know by searching our heart, is a claim beyond our comprehension.

​

1. Psalm 147:5 - His knowledge is innumerable not infinite.​

2. Psalm 147:4​

3. Isaiah 40:28​

4. Romans 11:33​

​

I see no need to expand the scope of Divine Knowledge beyond its scriptural basis.

 

[Rye]

For example God only chooses A and B, when I said we do not know the extent of what God chooses to know.

With all due respect, are you an open theist, Van? If you are, then your reasoning makes sense. If you’re not, then I see one major flaw with your argumentation.

That is, if God chooses not to know something beforehand, that means he has to learn about it later on and learn why something happened the way it did.

Isaiah 41:22 - Let them bring them forth, and shew us what shall happen: let them shew the former things, what they be, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or declare us things for to come.

As far as Jesus not knowing the time of the end, that’s one of those places we can apply our understanding of passages you mentioned, such as Isaiah 40:28.

You may not see it that way and I know your motivation is to handle the scriptures honestly and that’s a good thing. I’m trying to be consistent where I can be and I cannot hold to any theological position that has God in a learning process.

 

[Rye]

Based on your response, I have concluded my efforts to explain my view of scripture will fail.

I appreciate you taking the time to present your side.