Anti- drum beat/syncopation

no.....so that people who have pre-judged it as riotous or excessive will hear the message, and not reject it based upon their personal preferences. :thumbs:

 

I've been to services where the music is excessively dull and mechanical and not what I would call joyful worship to the Lord Almighty. Are those problematic?

The following sounds like a pretty riotous affair. I would have loved to join in on the worship that day.

KJV 2 Samuel 6:14-15
"And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod. So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet."

 

I thought this thread looked interesting so I wandered in. Can you give an example of a song a Christian should avoid? It seems if we could do that then we could draw a parallel between the song and a particular style of genre.

 

That's problematic...because the concept of "genre" is subjective.

What you call easy listening, I might call rock...or vice-versa.

 

1. Yes, the fact that people are not interested in the singing is problematic. Reckon why do they do that? Could it be that they've been conditioned to expect music to make them feel instead of think? And all those words about Jesus and God and all that, like in the old hymns, do they just become worn-out cliches over time? Enough of that boring stuff - bring on the dancing!

2. Was David at a Church service when all of this dancing took place?

3. Would you consider David's behavior here typical or unusual?

4. When people are gathered together, should every individual do what ever they happen to feel like doing, or should their be decency and order?

 

Based on Biblical principles, I think there are two general guidelines to follow when it comes to "gray areas" like music.

1. Does it bring honor to Christ?
2. Does the messenger bring attention and honor to Christ, or to himself?

I believe if the singer is honoring Christ in his daily walk, and the music is glorifying/praising God, we can trust it to be pleasing to God. Everything else, such as genre, tempo, etc, is based on personal preference. I personally don't like CCM, but if a song brings honor to Christ, as do the messengers, then I can't judge it as sin simply because I like something else.

 

A well-stated opinion. And I respect your difference regarding taste.

 

Agreed.

It could be. But be careful, I think saying there should be 0% emotion in worship is a slippery slope. Maybe the aforementioned people have looked around in a worship service and seen the same lifeless faces I sometimes see on Sundays when even those who SAY they are thinking about the lyrics are obviously not. Ever seen that wall of staring, blank faces sing "Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, let the people rejoice!!"?

True, we don't base our worship on how we feel. We don't sing only the songs that make us feel good. Like the prophet Habbakuk, we need to be unquenchable in our worship... whether good or bad times fall on us, we should (at the very least try to) refuse to be dampened in our quest to glorify God.

This is where education must happen. How many people under 25 know what "Here I raise mine Ebenezer" really means? What about terms like "bulwark" and "Lord of Sabaoth"? Most average worshippers don't like some of those songs because the language is out of use... do we stop singing them? NO! We educate! Anti-intellectualism in worship is not the answer. In fact, if we stop using songs because we don't understand them, or because the language is out of date, we are being (at the very least) selfish and in danger of being viewed as incredibly narcissistic (I only do what I want to do). As a worship leader, it's my job to make sure that 1) I understand the songs I lead and 2) I help the congregation see their value in the worship of God.

Not necessarily, although we have a dance team at our church... and they're very good.

 

Are you implying that all worship must be done in a church service?

Are you saying that it is sinful to allow emotions into our worship... that sounds very much like the heresy of the stoics, that the early church faced.

Emotions are not sinful... Christ had emotions.
He was happy, sad, angry, etc....

It is ok to worship using our emotions.
Some people are wired intellectually, some are wired emotionally... neither is wrong...
What is wrong, is declaring what God has made clean, unclean.
And assuming that our opinions equal God's commandments...

ABCGRAD wins the best post of this thread... If all Christians would state their opinions like that, this crazy, unholy, divisive, subject would never take our eyes off of our true worship...

 

Do they? Not for me. How much do you know about the hymns and the stories behind them, the people who wrote them and why? Take for instance "The Love of God." We sang that one this last Sunday. When we got to the last verse, because I knew the story behind it, and also because of the message, it brought tears to my eyes. In other words it provoked emotion in me. Here:

​

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/l/o/loveofgo.htm
​

 

That was a wonderful experience, and I am for wonderful experiences. But it appeals to sentiment, and should we be controled by our sentiments?

 

Where is the scripture that says we are to worship completely divorced from emotions?

Worship that is dictated by emotions is problematic. But the other extreme would seem to be a problem as well.

 

I don't know of any scripture that says that, and I did not intend to imply that. I think we SHOULD feel affectionate emotions toward God. But worship does not necessarily involve emotions. The rational mind, enlightened by the Spirit and exercised in the word, is a far superior guide than fleeting emotions.

I see we finally agree on something. But I suppose you maintain the position that no particular form of music - even it's most extreme examples - are "extreme". Only lyrics can be "extreme". That's your position, correct?

 

I don't know about anyone else, but I would love to have an example of a song to consider "extreme" because my extreme may not be the same as yours....

So, let's look at Youth of the Nation by P.O.D... YOu can listen to it here
http://www.esnips.com/doc/50678821-9e28-4913-91f2-7e211a160c9b/Youth-of-the-Nation---P.O.D
Lyrics: Last day of the rest of my life I wish I would have known cause i'd have kissed my
momma goobye. I didn't tell her that I loved her or how much cared or thank my
pops for all the talks and all the wisdom he shared. Unaware I just did what I
always do. Everyday the same routine before I skate off to school but who knew
that
this day wasnt like the rest, instead of takin the test I took two to the chest.
Call me blind but I didn't see it comin and everybody was runnin but I couldn't
hear nothin, except gun blast, it happened so fast I didn't really know this kid
though I sat by him in class. Maybe this kid was reachin out for love or maybe
for a moment he forgot who he was or maybe this kid just wanted to be hugged,
whatever it was I know its because

CHORUS
We are We are the youth of the nation (repeat)x4

Little Suzzy she was only twelve she was given the world with every chance to
excel
Hang with the boys and hear the stories they tell she might act kinda proud
but no respect for herself

She finds love in all the wrong places the same situations but different faces.
Changed up her pace since her daddy left her too bad he never told her she
deserved much better.
Johnny boy always played the fool, he broke all the rules so you would think he
was cool.
He was never really one of the guys no matter how hard he tried, with the
thought of suicide
It's kinda hard when you ain't got no friends, he put his life to an end they
might remember him then.
You cross a line and there is no turnin back he told the world how he felt with
the sound of a gat.

CHORUS x4

Whos to blame for the life that tragedies claim no matter what you say it won't
take away the pain, that I feel inside I'm tired of all the lies don't nobody know
why it's the blind leadin the blind.
Guess that's the way that the story goes, will it ever make sense somebody's
gotta
know, there's gotta be more to life than this, there's got to be more to everything
I thought exists

CHORUS to the end
http://www.lyrics007.com/P.O.D. Lyrics/Youth Of The Nation Lyrics.html

I would consider this extreme for a worship service, but driving down the road, I could have it playing on a radio...

Would I consider it sinful? No.
Extreme for worship? yes

But it drives the point home that the youth of our nation need something more than they are getting from this world...

But not everything is meant for worship...

 

Well, at least we agree that there is should a thing as "too extreme for a worship service". I didn't like that song, but just like you, there are plenty of songs that I listen to driving down the road that I would not have in church.

Extreme styles of music are offensive to people that don't enjoy them, so we should avoid them in the common assembly. Extreme styles are not limited to rap, rock,etc., some old-folks styles can be offensive too, like excessively twangy country styles, excessive "crooning", and so on.

 

J.D.,

Sounds like many meetings I have been a part of, including my current primary fellowship.

Where do you get that from? Every fellowship I have been a part of for 25 years now includes singing with the instrumental work.

Because both the singing and instrumental playing are avenues where the Holy Spirit inhabits the praises of His people and blesses them.

No. Its not one or the other...its both.

Never. Not in the least bit.

There is a time and place for everything.

Doesnt matter whether he was or wasnt. There is abundant evidence in the scriptures in support of singing, music, and dancing when Gods people are gathered together.

In most fellowships I have been a part of? Typical. But in some...unfortunetly...thats not the case.

Its not one or the other. Its both.

We are all gifted individually, and we should express that gift...yet as a body we are also to work together as one.

God bless,

Mike

 

TinyTim,

I'm pretty much the opposite of you regarding that. I have a very low tolerance level for rap. About 1 minute of it is all I can stand. I would never ever want anything like that playing when I am driving down the road. The staccato non melodic "rap" style is hideous to my ears.

But that would be perfectly acceptable as far as I am concerned for a worship service, if it was for a room full of youth you like the sound of it. God would certainly move in a bless it. No problem with it at all in a worship service.

But I personally would probably be out in the parking lot...out of earshot...waiting for it to end. :laugh:

(maybe not if it was one song. But if a second one started I would be *history* until the actual melodies and singing come back)

Mike

 

Why is that "unfortunate"? Is there something wrong with people that don't like to dance?

 

J.D.

Absolutely not.

But there is something wrong with people who would strictly forbid someone else to joyfully dance unto the Lord during a meeting if they want to.

That is unfortunate.

Just like the rap stuff that Tiny Tim posted. I dont care for it, but as long as it is done respectfully...as his example was...I would never be in favor of forbidding it during a gathered meeting.

Mike