Anti vax totalitarianism is a myth

[canadyjd]

It cannot be that simple - if it were this simple, why would a law professor think it will pass constitutional muster?

And here is another view from an expert:

Although legal challenges are likely, "the mandates are legal and will ultimately be upheld," said Peter Jacobson, professor emeritus of health law and policy at the University of Michigan, of the sweeping plan Biden announced Thursday to combat the pandemic.

And another:

Lance Gable, a professor of law at Wayne State University Law School, agreed that the mandates are likely to survive legal challenges.

"I think it's on pretty stable legal ground," he said. "The government's in a strong position here."

I am not saying that there are not qualified experts who agree with you.

But things clearly cannot be as black and white as you appear to be implying.

Like I said, it is easy to find law professors with different opinions.

It occurs to me that we may be talking about two different issues. The President ordered federal employees and contractors to get the vaccine or be tested weekly. That is probably what the law professors are talking about.

I am referring to his using OSHA to implement an employer mandate that their employees are vaxed or face stiff penalties. That is an end run around the constitution that will be struck down, imo.

peace to you

 

[rlvaughn]

OK , thanks.

You're welcome.

Can you provide the argument as to why what the President is considering doing would be unconstitutional?

I believe I could, but am not inclined to do so. You can find plenty of differing opinions, here and elsewhere, while I only intended to provide some specific information for which you asked in a couple of posts on page 3.

 

[JonC]

Like I said, it is easy to find law professors with different opinions.

It occurs to me that we may be talking about two different issues. The President ordered federal employees and contractors to get the vaccine or be tested weekly. That is probably what the law professors are talking about.

I am referring to his using OSHA to implement an employer mandate that their employees are vaxed or face stiff penalties. That is an end run around the constitution that will be struck down, imo.

peace to you

A little correction - The President ordered federal employees and contractors to get the vaccine as a condition of federal-federal contract employment (exceptions for medical and religious reasons as required by law).

We were informed today. We have until November 30 to be vaccinated as a condition of employment (again, medical and religious exemptions).


OSHA did the sane thing with Hepatitis vaccines. And we should probably note that OSHA's view of covid and vaccinations was in place in 2020 (Trump Administration), noting that vaccines were not currently avaliable. I don't think OSHA's conclusions were a surprise (once the FDA approved a vaccine).

 

[canadyjd]

A little correction - The President ordered federal employees and contractors to get the vaccine as a condition of federal-federal contract employment (exceptions for medical and religious reasons as required by law).

We were informed today. We have until November 30 to be vaccinated as a condition of employment (again, medical and religious exemptions).


OSHA did the sane thing with Hepatitis vaccines. And we should probably note that OSHA's view of covid and vaccinations was in place in 2020 (Trump Administration), noting that vaccines were not currently avaliable. I don't think OSHA's conclusions were a surprise (once the FDA approved a vaccine).

Ok, let’s race to the courts for the final conclusion! The sooner the better.

peace to you

 

[rlvaughn]

OSHA did the sane thing with Hepatitis vaccines.

What "same thing" did OSHA do with the Hepatitis B vaccines?

 

[JonC]

What "same thing" did OSHA do with the Hepatitis B vaccines?

"According to the Bloodborne Pathogens Standard (29 CFR 1910.1030) and OSHA enforcement policy, all employees with occupational exposure to blood and other potentially infectious materials (OPIM) must be covered by the standard. This would include, in addition to all the applicable provisions of the standard, the administration of the hepatitis B virus (HBV) vaccination series prior to employee exposure"Hepatitis B vaccination requirements for employees providing first aid as a collateral duty. | Occupational Safety and Health Administration

 

[Andre]

I am referring to his using OSHA to implement an employer mandate that their employees are vaxed or face stiff penalties. That is an end run around the constitution that will be struck down, imo.

Ok, I have no reason to doubt what you are saying here.

 

[rlvaughn]

"According to the Bloodborne Pathogens Standard (29 CFR 1910.1030) and OSHA enforcement policy, all employees with occupational exposure to blood and other potentially infectious materials (OPIM) must be covered by the standard. This would include, in addition to all the applicable provisions of the standard, the administration of the hepatitis B virus (HBV) vaccination series prior to employee exposure"Hepatitis B vaccination requirements for employees providing first aid as a collateral duty. | Occupational Safety and Health Administration

What part are you saying is the same as what OSHA will do with Covid-19? It appears to me, based on 1910.1030 - Bloodborne pathogens, that OSHA is requiring the employer make the vaccine available to the employee.

1910.1030(f)(2)
Hepatitis B Vaccination.
1910.1030(f)(2)(i)
Hepatitis B vaccination shall be made available after the employee has received the training required in paragraph (g)(2)(vii)(I) and within 10 working days of initial assignment to all employees who have occupational exposure unless the employee has previously received the complete hepatitis B vaccination series, antibody testing has revealed that the employee is immune, or the vaccine is contraindicated for medical reasons.
1910.1030(f)(2)(ii)
The employer shall not make participation in a prescreening program a prerequisite for receiving hepatitis B vaccination.
1910.1030(f)(2)(iii)
If the employee initially declines hepatitis B vaccination but at a later date while still covered under the standard decides to accept the vaccination, the employer shall make available hepatitis B vaccination at that time.
1910.1030(f)(2)(iv)
The employer shall assure that employees who decline to accept hepatitis B vaccination offered by the employer sign the statement in appendix A.

 

[JonC]

What part are you saying is the same as what OSHA will do with Covid-19? It appears to me, based on 1910.1030 - Bloodborne pathogens, that OSHA is requiring the employer make the vaccine available to the employee.

I must have missed something.

You are saying OSHA has mandated covid vaccines?

 

[rlvaughn]

OSHA has not done anything yet. They have issued no ETS, but the President says they are developing one.

The Department of Labor’s Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) is developing a rule that will require all employers with 100 or more employees to ensure their workforce is fully vaccinated or require any workers who remain unvaccinated to produce a negative test result on at least a weekly basis before coming to work. OSHA will issue an Emergency Temporary Standard (ETS) to implement this requirement. This requirement will impact over 80 million workers in private sector businesses with 100+ employees.

You said that OSHA did the "same thing" with Hep B vaccines. Is your "same thing" in reference to the covid discussion, or not? Or is it the "same thing" that is something else?

 

[Dave G]

I must have missed something.

You are saying OSHA has mandated covid vaccines?

I must have missed something.

Are you saying that OSHA has mandated Hepatitus vaccines?
I'm employed at a DOD contractor, had all the appropriate training for bloodborne pathogens, and have never been told it was mandatory to have any vaccinations, much less Hepatitus B.
However, I have been encouraged to get vaccines, and my employer has even made them available to us.

But up until this whole CovID thing, we've never been told, in almost 25 years being employed there, that we absolutely had to be vaccinated for ours or anyone else's safety.

 

[JonC]

OSHA has not done anything yet. They have issued no ETS, but the President says they are developing one.
You said that OSHA did the "same thing" with Hep B vaccines. Is your "same thing" in reference to the covid discussion, or not? Or is it the "same thing" that is something else?

Yes. OSHA did the sane thing with other vaccines in the workplace.

"This would include, in addition to all the applicable provisions of the standard, the administration of the hepatitis B virus (HBV) vaccination series prior to employee exposure"

What do you see that is different?

 

[JonC]

I must have missed something.

Are you saying that OSHA has mandated Hepatitus vaccines?
I'm employed at a DOD contractor and have never been told it was mandatory to have any vaccinations, much less Hepatitus B.
However, I have been encouraged to get vaccines and my employer has even made them available to us.

But up until this whole CovID thing, we've never been told that we absolutely had to be vaccinated for ours or anyone else's safety.

I dont know which hospital you worked at did, but I did have to get a hepatitis vaccine (and get TB tested....annually if I recall). This was in the 90's.

 

[canadyjd]

I must have missed something.

You are saying OSHA has mandated covid vaccines?

That’s ok, this covid debate has been confusing since the “15 days to stop the spread”, turned into two years, “it’s silly to wear masks because they don’t work”, “we must wear masks”, “we will not mandate a vaccination”, “we must mandate vaccination to protect the vaccinated from the unvaccinated”, and on and on and on with one confusing statement after another.

Come Lord Jesus

peace to you

 

[Dave G]

Yes. OSHA did the sane thing with other vaccines in the workplace.

Not in my workplace they didn't.

I did have to get a hepatitis vaccine (and get TB tested....annually if I recall).

Sounds to me as if your company did that on their own, and not as federally mandated.
Mine has been doing business with the Federal government for longer than I've been alive, and there's never been a vaccine mandate of any kind.

If it was a matter of OSHA regulations, I would have known about it years ago.

 

[JonC]

That’s ok, this covid debate has been confusing since the “15 days to stop the spread”, turned into two years, “it’s silly to wear masks because they don’t work”, “we must wear masks”, “we will not mandate a vaccination”, “we must mandate vaccination to protect the vaccinated from the unvaccinated”, and on and on and on with one confusing statement after another.

Come Lord Jesus

peace to you

yea... that was a very long two weeks, huh.

 

[Dave G]

I dont know which hospital you worked at did, but I did have to get a hepatitis vaccine (and get TB tested....annually if I recall). This was in the 90's.

I'm not in medical, I'm in DOD manufacturing.
Medical carries a whole different set of rules, if I'm correct, and they fall under FDA, not FAA / Military .

Apologies for the misunderstanding.

 

[JonC]

Not in my workplace they didn't.

Sounds to me as if your company did that on their own, and not as federally mandated.
Mine has been doing business with the Federal government for longer than I've been alive, and there's never been a vaccine mandate of any kind.

If it was a matter of OSHA regulations, I would have known about it years ago.

No. They did it due to an Executive Order. The employer does not work with the federal government- it is a federal contractor and has to follow DOE guidelines (the company is really a team of companies led by Amentum with partners Bechtel National, Jacobs, and BWXT....contracted for only one DOE nuclear site).

If the DOE says "do it", it's done. No option.

 

[rlvaughn]

Yes. OSHA did the sane thing with other vaccines in the workplace.

"This would include, in addition to all the applicable provisions of the standard, the administration of the hepatitis B virus (HBV) vaccination series prior to employee exposure"

What do you see that is different?

In post # 63 you talked about the President ordering federal employees and contractors to get the vaccine as a condition of employment and that we (your company, I suppose) have until November 30 to be vaccinated as a condition of employment. Then you said OSHA did the same thing with Hepatitis vaccines. But nothing you have posted, as far as I can tell, shows that OSHA has ordered employees must get it as a condition of employment. What I found says that they require employers to make it available to all employees (and likely certain employers do make it a condition of employment).

 

[JonC]

I'm not in medical, I'm in DOD manufacturing.
Medical carries a whole different set of rules, if I'm correct, and they fall under FDA, not FAA / Military .

Apologies for the misunderstanding.

Sorry, I was not clear. Yes, only in specific medical settings.