the death of jesus is the basis God uses to justify sinners, but ONLY effectual once Chrit is received by faith, until that happens, still estanged from God!
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Antichrist reigning !
- Thread starter savedbymercy
- Start date
the death of jesus is the basis God uses to justify sinners, but ONLY effectual once Chrit is received by faith, until that happens, still estanged from God!
savedbymercy
New Member
the death of jesus is the basis God uses to justify sinners, but ONLY effectual once Chrit is received by faith, until that happens, still estanged from God!
Please deal with the points of posts 42 and 56 !
Please deal with the points of posts 42 and 56 !
I will answer those posts IF you can answer....
When did you receive Christ by faith and was saved?
savedbymercy
New Member
dhk
Because if Christ died for the child, by Christ's Death the child has been reconciled to God, while being an enemy in its deparvity. Rom 5:10
10 For if, when we were enemies[nothing but depraved sinners and ungodly in ourselves], we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
This has been my position all the time, but you misrepresent what I say because you reject the Truth of God to cleave to your man made traditions and your enmity against what the Death of Christ alone accomplished for those He died for before God's Law and Justice !
I never said men are not born depraved, you just bear false witness Ex 20:16
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Here is your false witness statement:
The child is born already reconciled to God. If he is already reconciled to God, then how can he be totally depraved,
Because if Christ died for the child, by Christ's Death the child has been reconciled to God, while being an enemy in its deparvity. Rom 5:10
10 For if, when we were enemies[nothing but depraved sinners and ungodly in ourselves], we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
This has been my position all the time, but you misrepresent what I say because you reject the Truth of God to cleave to your man made traditions and your enmity against what the Death of Christ alone accomplished for those He died for before God's Law and Justice !
I never said men are not born depraved, you just bear false witness Ex 20:16
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Here is your false witness statement:
You are an enigma.
On the other thread you have demonstrated that you don't believe in Total Depravity.
savedbymercy
New Member
2 Cor 13:5 except ye be reprobates?
2 Cor 13:5
5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
Those who say they are saved may be fooling themselves, and the truth being told, may be just reprobates.
Those who say they are saved or made Just before God based upon their faith or act of believing, or repentance, or whatever they did, they are in essence saying, they are made Righteous or Just before God by their act of obedience, which denies the Faith Paul is speaking of in 2 Cor 13:5, which faith says Rom 5:19
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
The emphasis is on the Word ONE, The Faith that Paul Preached states we are made Righteous by the Obedience of One, that One being the Lord Jesus Christ and His Obedience unto Death alone ! Phil 2:8
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Now if we claim we are Justified before God because we believed, which believing is called the obedience to the Gospel, in that not believing it is called not to obey the Gospel 2 Thess 1:8
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
So it stands to reason, those who profess Justification before God because of their own obedience, they are denying the Faith of the Gospel, and very well, if they continue in that mindset, are reprobates !
2 Cor 13:5
5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
Those who say they are saved may be fooling themselves, and the truth being told, may be just reprobates.
Those who say they are saved or made Just before God based upon their faith or act of believing, or repentance, or whatever they did, they are in essence saying, they are made Righteous or Just before God by their act of obedience, which denies the Faith Paul is speaking of in 2 Cor 13:5, which faith says Rom 5:19
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
The emphasis is on the Word ONE, The Faith that Paul Preached states we are made Righteous by the Obedience of One, that One being the Lord Jesus Christ and His Obedience unto Death alone ! Phil 2:8
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Now if we claim we are Justified before God because we believed, which believing is called the obedience to the Gospel, in that not believing it is called not to obey the Gospel 2 Thess 1:8
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
So it stands to reason, those who profess Justification before God because of their own obedience, they are denying the Faith of the Gospel, and very well, if they continue in that mindset, are reprobates !
savedbymercy
New Member
Then either "being reconciled" has a different meaning than "being saved" or it a poetic parallelism.
Yes it does has a different aspect than being saved. Those who Christ died for are reconciled to God Legally by the Death of Christ, even while they are being enemies, or unbelievers, or ungodly and depraved in themslves as sinners, however the promise to them is that they SHALL be saved by Christ's Life Rom 5:10
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
That is another aspect of reconciliation, subjective reconciliation, but that follows and is the fruit of legal reconciliation by the Cross.
So, yes, those whom Christ died for are legally reconciled into God's Favor before they are saved by His Life, which is always later..
savedbymercy
New Member
We must be saved out of Unbelief !
Rom 11:32
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
The word here for unbelief is the greek word apeitheia and means:
obstinacy, obstinate opposition to the divine will
The word is also meaning disobedience as here Eph 2:2; 5:6 ; Col 3:6 !
The word concluded is the greek word sygkleiō and means:
to shut up together, enclose
a) of a shoal of fishes in a net
2) to shut up on all sides, shut up completely
So the meaning of the verse is like
ESV For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
ISV For God has locked all people in the prison of their own disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
WNT For God has locked up all in the prison of unbelief, that upon all alike He may have mercy.
The Ideal here is that God delivered all His Elect, Both Jew and Gentile, He delivered or handed them over into unbelief, which is disobedience.
This is something God did, and what does scripture say about that which God doeth ? Ecc 7:13
Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?
Who can deliver themselves from Unbelief to Faith, Yes even the obedience of Faith ?
Many today in false religion believe they deliver themselves from unbelief, and by their believing they secure Salvation and or Justification before God unto themselves !
If we say we believed, and as a result of our believing God saved us, we are actually crowning our own selves our Saviour's or Co Saviour's since one must first be delivered out of the prison of unbelief we are all born into by nature, like the children of disobedience !
However the Testimony of the True Believer, as Paul, our Testimony is that Jesus Christ saves us from Unbelief, for thats part of how He saves sinners 1 Tim 1:13-15
13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
This is Paul's Testimony of How God saved Him out of His unbelief of vs 13, and in doing so, He confirms that Christ Jesus came into the World to Save Sinners, Unbelievers !
And He states that His Salvation from Unbelief by the Grace of God, was an example of how all will be saved out of unbelief unto the believing unto Life Eternal Vs 16
16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
Every sinner that Christ died for as Paul, will be saved out of their unbelief just as Paul was his, for it may not be in the same dramatic fashion as Paul's was, but nevertheless, God will give each of us our own damascus road experience, tailor made for each of us to bring us out of unbelief, the prison of it !
Isa 61:1
The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
This is the prison of unbelief, of which all by nature are bound Rom 11:32 !
Rom 11:32
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
The word here for unbelief is the greek word apeitheia and means:
obstinacy, obstinate opposition to the divine will
The word is also meaning disobedience as here Eph 2:2; 5:6 ; Col 3:6 !
The word concluded is the greek word sygkleiō and means:
to shut up together, enclose
a) of a shoal of fishes in a net
2) to shut up on all sides, shut up completely
So the meaning of the verse is like
ESV For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
ISV For God has locked all people in the prison of their own disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
WNT For God has locked up all in the prison of unbelief, that upon all alike He may have mercy.
The Ideal here is that God delivered all His Elect, Both Jew and Gentile, He delivered or handed them over into unbelief, which is disobedience.
This is something God did, and what does scripture say about that which God doeth ? Ecc 7:13
Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?
Who can deliver themselves from Unbelief to Faith, Yes even the obedience of Faith ?
Many today in false religion believe they deliver themselves from unbelief, and by their believing they secure Salvation and or Justification before God unto themselves !
If we say we believed, and as a result of our believing God saved us, we are actually crowning our own selves our Saviour's or Co Saviour's since one must first be delivered out of the prison of unbelief we are all born into by nature, like the children of disobedience !
However the Testimony of the True Believer, as Paul, our Testimony is that Jesus Christ saves us from Unbelief, for thats part of how He saves sinners 1 Tim 1:13-15
13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
This is Paul's Testimony of How God saved Him out of His unbelief of vs 13, and in doing so, He confirms that Christ Jesus came into the World to Save Sinners, Unbelievers !
And He states that His Salvation from Unbelief by the Grace of God, was an example of how all will be saved out of unbelief unto the believing unto Life Eternal Vs 16
16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
Every sinner that Christ died for as Paul, will be saved out of their unbelief just as Paul was his, for it may not be in the same dramatic fashion as Paul's was, but nevertheless, God will give each of us our own damascus road experience, tailor made for each of us to bring us out of unbelief, the prison of it !
Isa 61:1
The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
This is the prison of unbelief, of which all by nature are bound Rom 11:32 !
OK, but traditional Christianity would have me believe that God intentionally set up a system that he knew would result in a large majority of all humans spending eternity in Hell. Would a "good" god do that? Is this the best universe God could create?
I have five children. Say I knew in advance that I would have five children and would only love one child and hate four children. How is this different than what God does?
How is this different than humans intentionally aborting "children" who will be born defective? God aborts his defective children and sends them to Hell?
I have five children. Say I knew in advance that I would have five children and would only love one child and hate four children. How is this different than what God does?
How is this different than humans intentionally aborting "children" who will be born defective? God aborts his defective children and sends them to Hell?
savedbymercy
New Member
OK, but traditional Christianity would have me believe that God intentionally set up a system that he knew would result in a large majority of all humans spending eternity in Hell. Would a "good" god do that? Is this the best universe God could create?
I have five children. Say I knew in advance that I would have five children and would only love one child and hate four children. How is this different than what God does?
How is this different than humans intentionally aborting "children" who will be born defective? God aborts his defective children and sends them to Hell?
Could you respond to post 69 where I responded to a question of yours. Thanks !
post 69
>>Originally Posted by billwald
>>Then either "being reconciled" has a different meaning than "being saved" or it a poetic parallelism.
>Yes it does has a different aspect than being saved. Those who Christ died for are reconciled to God Legally by the Death of Christ, even while they are being enemies, or unbelievers, or ungodly and depraved in themslves as sinners, however the promise to them is that they SHALL be saved by Christ's Life Rom 5:10
>10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
>That is another aspect of reconciliation, subjective reconciliation, but that follows and is the fruit of legal reconciliation by the Cross.
>So, yes, those whom Christ died for are legally reconciled into God's Favor before they are saved by His Life, which is always later..
Your opinion seems clear. IT DOESN'T SEEM TO ASK FOR A RESPONSE.
>>Originally Posted by billwald
>>Then either "being reconciled" has a different meaning than "being saved" or it a poetic parallelism.
>Yes it does has a different aspect than being saved. Those who Christ died for are reconciled to God Legally by the Death of Christ, even while they are being enemies, or unbelievers, or ungodly and depraved in themslves as sinners, however the promise to them is that they SHALL be saved by Christ's Life Rom 5:10
>10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
>That is another aspect of reconciliation, subjective reconciliation, but that follows and is the fruit of legal reconciliation by the Cross.
>So, yes, those whom Christ died for are legally reconciled into God's Favor before they are saved by His Life, which is always later..
Your opinion seems clear. IT DOESN'T SEEM TO ASK FOR A RESPONSE.
savedbymercy
New Member
>>Originally Posted by billwald
>>Then either "being reconciled" has a different meaning than "being saved" or it a poetic parallelism.
>Yes it does has a different aspect than being saved. Those who Christ died for are reconciled to God Legally by the Death of Christ, even while they are being enemies, or unbelievers, or ungodly and depraved in themslves as sinners, however the promise to them is that they SHALL be saved by Christ's Life Rom 5:10
>10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
>That is another aspect of reconciliation, subjective reconciliation, but that follows and is the fruit of legal reconciliation by the Cross.
>So, yes, those whom Christ died for are legally reconciled into God's Favor before they are saved by His Life, which is always later..
Your opinion seems clear. IT DOESN'T SEEM TO ASK FOR A RESPONSE.
So what do you understand my opinion to be saying in response to your question ?