Antinomianism

[mont974x4]

Then you might go ahead and check out the Seventh Day Adventists and the some of the Messianic Jewish groups.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Then you might go ahead and check out the Seventh Day Adventists and the some of the Messianic Jewish groups.

I told you a few posts up that I stay away from nuts. But the Presbyterians (OPC) & The Dutch Reformed do agree with me as well. Surprised you did not know that. Oh yes of course, your a "New" Covenant Guy, so you guys are correct & everyone else is wrong. LOL, and they call the Calvies arrogant.:laugh:

 

[mont974x4]

I told you a few posts up that I stay away from nuts. But the Presbyterians (OPC) & The Dutch Reformed do agree with me as well. Surprised you did not know that. Oh yes of course, your a "New" Covenant Guy, so you guys are correct & everyone else is wrong. LOL, and they call the Calvies arrogant.:laugh:

You don't think the groups wanting to live under the OT Law, that is the OC, when Christ instituted the NC are "nuts"?


I'd suggest this study on Galatians. The man teaching is a Jew. He is a follower of Christ. He does an excellent job of explaining why the Law is not for the NT Church. The link is for the DVD set, which is kind of pricey. Poke around a bit and you can find cheaper options.

http://arielc.org/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=AMC&Product_Code=DVD-cs-msg&Category_Code=

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You don't think the groups wanting to live under the OT Law, that is the OC, when Christ instituted the NC are "nuts"?


I'd suggest this study on Galatians. The man teaching is a Jew. He is a follower of Christ. He does an excellent job of explaining why the Law is not for the NT Church. The link is for the DVD set, which is kind of pricey. Poke around a bit and you can find cheaper options.

http://arielc.org/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=AMC&Product_Code=DVD-cs-msg&Category_Code=

Tell ya what....you listen to the sermon audio that I provided & then get back to me with any questions you might have & then I will view your attachment (not until then though)....agreed.

(on 2nd thought) sorry forget it....not spending money on this.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Guess Ive been discovered.......

OK so repeat after me,

Deuteronomy 6:4-9

Sh'ma Yis'ra'eil Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad.
Hear, Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One.

:laugh::laugh::godisgood:

What tipped me off....I wouldnt eat the pork? ROFL

 

[Iconoclast]

There is a third option. Though the Law is not commanded and applicable as it was in the OT in this post-Cross age it is still very much relevant.

An example:
Deu 22:8 "When you build a new house, you shall make a parapet for your roof, so that you will not bring bloodguilt on your house if anyone falls from it. (NASB)

This was written in a place where roofs were flat and used as an extended living space. That application is not relevant to us. So what do we do with it?

The NT application, keeping in mind the second great commandment to love our neighbors, would be to ensure that our homes are a safe place. This may mean keeping sidewalks clear from ice in winter. When I was helping to build a new house for friend after a fire we used barricades to keep people out and marked the holes clearly.


Back to the Sabbath. If we believe that Christ Himself is our rest and we are indwelled by the Spirit then we do not need to go to a specified place at a specified time for worship (including sacrifices). The sabbath is being kept, but in a different way based on our current historical and cultural context....mainly being post-Cross.

Col 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
Col 2:14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
Col 2:15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.
Col 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--
Col 2:17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
Col 2:18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,
Col 2:19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.
Col 2:20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
Col 2:21 "Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!"
Col 2:22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)--in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
Col 2:23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence. (NASB)

Rom 14:1 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.
Rom 14:2 One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only.
Rom 14:3 The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him.
Rom 14:4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
Rom 14:5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.
Rom 14:7 For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself;
Rom 14:8 for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.
Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
Rom 14:10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."
Rom 14:12 So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.
Rom 14:13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this--not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way.
Rom 14:14 I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Rom 14:15 For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died.
Rom 14:16 Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil;
Rom 14:17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
Rom 14:18 For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.
Rom 14:19 So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another.
Rom 14:20 Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense.
Rom 14:21 It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles.
Rom 14:22 The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.
Rom 14:23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin. (NASB)

For you...Heb4
9 there doth remain, then, a sabbatic rest to the people of God,:thumbs:

Matthew 28

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

28 And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre,

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

For you...Heb4
9 there doth remain, then, a sabbatic rest to the people of God,:thumbs:

Matthew 28

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

28 And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre,

Yes & I dont know how he ducks this one....but will repost. That is, before I run off to shul...:smilewinkgrin:

1 John 5:3

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

Shalom....:laugh:

 

[12strings]

I will put it this way, I drive the legal limit....I do not say that grace abounds so I dont have to abide by Gods moral laws anymore. Thats prelude to chaos.

Even Mr. Ferguson, in his sermon, make clear that not all who he says fall under various forms of antinomianism are simply disregarding God's laws for personal gain. Some, the "textual antinomians," as he calls them, truly believe they are not obligated to keep the Sabbath. Simply telling them they are disregarding obedience to say grace abounds will not change their mind, and unfairly presents their motivations.

If Sabbath remains, should we keep it on Saturday?

By what criteria do you isolate the 10 commandments from the other laws God gave Israel? What about the Law God gave Moses about not eating meat with blood in it? This was not Israel-specific.

P.S> I also drive the speed limit, for the same reason...but it is a different disccussion than keeping the (saturday) sabbath.

 

[12strings]

For you...Heb4
9 there doth remain, then, a sabbatic rest to the people of God,:thumbs:

Matthew 28

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

28 And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre,

Heb. 4 does not seem to be speaking of the need to keep a certain day holy...rather of the need to enter the rest God offers, while hoping for the future perfect rest.

Matthew 28 is simply using the sabbath as a reference point so the (jewish) reader knows when this happened. While Heb 4 could be argued about for a while...This verse in Matthew can really carry no weight in arguing that the NT believer is required to keep the Sabbath (Saturday) Holy.

 

[Yeshua1]

Heb. 4 does not seem to be speaking of the need to keep a certain day holy...rather of the need to enter the rest God offers, while hoping for the future perfect rest.

Matthew 28 is simply using the sabbath as a reference point so the (jewish) reader knows when this happened. While Heb 4 could be argued about for a while...This verse in Matthew can really carry no weight in arguing that the NT believer is required to keep the Sabbath (Saturday) Holy.

hebrews says tio us that because jesus paid the full price owed to the fathe ron our behalf for Sin, that we can ;rest" in Him, that we do have spiritual rest and end to trying to keep the law in order to get right/saved by God!

 

[Yeshua1]

I will put it this way, I drive the legal limit....I do not say that grace abounds so I dont have to abide by Gods moral laws anymore. Thats prelude to chaos.

Though we who are non reformed might not agree totally with how the law is to be seen as Christians today, NONE would hold to not obeying the Moral aspects of the law!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Even Mr. Ferguson, in his sermon, make clear that not all who he says fall under various forms of antinomianism are simply disregarding God's laws for personal gain. Some, the "textual antinomians," as he calls them, truly believe they are not obligated to keep the Sabbath. Simply telling them they are disregarding obedience to say grace abounds will not change their mind, and unfairly presents their motivations.

If Sabbath remains, should we keep it on Saturday?

By what criteria do you isolate the 10 commandments from the other laws God gave Israel? What about the Law God gave Moses about not eating meat with blood in it? This was not Israel-specific.

P.S> I also drive the speed limit, for the same reason...but it is a different disccussion than keeping the (saturday) sabbath.

I only use the commandments as a dropping off point to establish an inquiring conversation into ths subject matter. I have stated before that I do not believe that God holds Gentiles to the same criterion as he does the Jews.

But for that, I am labeled as a legalist & a Judaizer, which is typically used as a pejorative where I come from. Then it was suggested that I approach 7 Day Adventist organization! :laugh: Clearly, I consider that a condescending suggestion -- again another Judaizer slight. If this is the tactics used by the NCT People, then my initial beliefs of them have in fact been confirmed.

Thanks for the education.....Im stronger for it.:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Though we who are non reformed might not agree totally with how the law is to be seen as Christians today, NONE would hold to not obeying the Moral aspects of the law!

May I suggest that you get it out of your head that my query was in some way my secret Reformed agenda. In fact, my people were Baptistic long before there was a RCC or a Reformation. I am in fact a Radical Christian--one who moves far beyond any liberal and conservative branches of Christianity & goes back to a fundamental questioning. I am not fixated on things like Reformed, Calvinistic, Dispsy, NCT, Arminian, or RCC agendas but rather the root causes... the sources & fundamentals of Christianity. And perhaps that is a result of my conversion so late in life. But I am going to continue to ask pointed questions of anyone I can learn from. Then I will formulate my belief system, thank you very much.

 

[Iconoclast]

Heb. 4 does not seem to be speaking of the need to keep a certain day holy...rather of the need to enter the rest God offers, while hoping for the future perfect rest.

Matthew 28 is simply using the sabbath as a reference point so the (jewish) reader knows when this happened. While Heb 4 could be argued about for a while...This verse in Matthew can really carry no weight in arguing that the NT believer is required to keep the Sabbath (Saturday) Holy.

Hello 12 strings,
Mt 28 is after the cross...speaking of the end of the sabbaths,,,,and then the beginning....here is a ligoner article by Pastor Ferguson:

Sabbath Rest

by Sinclair Ferguson

The anonymous author of Hebrews found different ways of describing the superiority of the Lord Jesus Christ. One of them, which forms the underlying motif of chapters 3 and 4, is that Jesus Christ gives the rest that neither Moses nor Joshua could provide. Under Moses, the people of God were disobedient and failed to enter into God’s rest (3:18). Psalm 95:11 (quoted in Hebrews 4:3) implies that Joshua could not have given the people “real rest” since “through David” God speaks about the rest he will give on another day (Heb. 4:7). This in turn implies that “There remains a sabbath rest for the people of God” (Heb. 4:9).

In speaking of this rest (3:18; 4:1, 3–6, 8) the author consistently used the same word for “rest” (katapausis). Suddenly, in speaking about the “rest” that remains for the people of God, he uses a different word (sabbatismos, used only here in the NT) meaning specifically a Sabbath rest. In the context of his teaching, this refers fundamentally to the “Sabbath rest” which is found in Christ (“Come … I will give you rest,” Matt. 11:28–30). Thus we are to “strive to enter that rest” (4:11).

Since Augustine, Christians have recognized that the Bible describes human experience in a fourfold scheme: in(i) creation, (ii) fall, (iii) redemption and (iv) glory. We are familiar with echoes of this in the Westminster Confession of Faith (chapter 9) and in Thomas Boston’s great book Human Nature in its Fourfold State. It is no surprise then that the Sabbath, which was made for man, is experienced by him in four ways.

In creation, man was made as God’s image — intended “naturally” as God’s child to reflect his Father. Since his Father worked creatively for six days and rested on the seventh, Adam, like a son, was to copy Him. Together, on the seventh day, they were to walk in the garden. That day was a time to listen to all the Father had to show and tell about the wonders of His creating work.

Thus the Sabbath Day was meant to be “Father’s Day” every week. It was “made” for Adam. It also had a hint of the future in it. The Father had finished His work, but Adam had not.

But Adam fell. He ruined everything, including the Sabbath. Instead of walking with God, he hid from God (Gen. 3:8). It was the Sabbath, Father’s Day, but God had to look for him!

This new context helps us to understand the significance of the fourth commandment. It was given to fallen man — that is why it contains a “you shall not.” He was not to work, but to rest. Externally, that meant ceasing from his ordinary tasks in order to meet with God. Internally, it involved ceasing from all self-sufficiency in order to rest in God’s grace.

Considering this, what difference did the coming of Jesus make to the Sabbath day? In Christ crucified and risen, we find eternal rest (Matt. 11:28–30), and we are restored to communion with God (Matt. 11:25–30). The lost treasures of the Sabbath are restored. We rest in Christ from our labor of self-sufficiency, and we have access to the Father (Eph. 2:18). As we meet with Him, He shows us Himself, His ways, His world, His purposes, His glory. And whatever was temporary about the Mosaic Sabbath must be left behind as the reality of the intimate communion of the Adamic Sabbath is again experienced in our worship of the risen Savior on the first day of the week — the Lord’s Day.

But we have not yet reached the goal. We still struggle to rest from our labors; we still must “strive to enter that rest” (Heb. 4:11). Consequently the weekly nature of the Sabbath continues as a reminder that we are not yet home with the Father. And since this rest is ours only through union with Christ in His death and resurrection, our struggles to refuse the old life and enjoy the new continue.

But one may ask: “How does this impact my Sundays as a Christian?” This view of the Sabbath should help us regulate our weeks. Sunday is “Father’s Day,” and we have an appointment to meet Him. The child who asks “How short can the meeting be? ” has a dysfunctional relationship problem — not an intellectual, theological problem — something is amiss in his fellowship with God.

This view of the Sabbath helps us deal with the question “Is it ok to do … on Sunday? — because I don’t have any time to do it in the rest of the week?” If this is our question, the problem is not how we use Sunday, it is how we are misusing the rest of the week.

This view of the Lord’s Day helps us see the day as a foretaste of heaven. And it teaches us that if the worship, fellowship, ministry, and outreach of our churches do not give expression to that then something is seriously amiss.

Hebrews teaches us that eternal glory is a Sabbath rest. Every day, all day, will be “Father’s Day”! Thus if here and now we learn the pleasures of a God-given weekly rhythm, it will no longer seem strange to us that the eternal glory can be described as a prolonged Sabbath!

 

[Yeshua1]

I only use the commandments as a dropping off point to establish an inquiring conversation into ths subject matter. I have stated before that I do not believe that God holds Gentiles to the same criterion as he does the Jews.

But for that, I am labeled as a legalist & a Judaizer, which is typically used as a pejorative where I come from. Then it was suggested that I approach 7 Day Adventist organization! :laugh: Clearly, I consider that a condescending suggestion -- again another Judaizer slight. If this is the tactics used by the NCT People, then my initial beliefs of them have in fact been confirmed.

Thanks for the education.....Im stronger for it.:smilewinkgrin:

A;way saw you as being a Christian, who holds to reformed theology!

 

[Jerome]

Reformed? Why in the world would you think that?

Oh ok....Im a Calvi in soteriology , however I do not hold to Covenant or Dispensational Theology (too many ambiguities). I will keep my options on that open there but I consider myself reformed.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Reformed? Why in the world would you think that?

OK wiseguy....define reformed.

While your at it define Calvinist. Give us your complete knowledge on the subject.....If you know anything.....which I doubt. Like how would you categorize say a Reformed Baptist, From a Primitive Baptist, from a Particular Baptist.....is there a common thread & whats the differences?

One more caveat....In your own words....no cut & paste or attachment. Show me your true intellect or is it totally hidden behind the world of the internet?

Then what are your leanings?