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Any Calvinist willing to walk through Romans 11 with me?

menageriekeeper

Active Member
I agree with Kyredneck. (how about that??)

The vine represents the Body of Christ. No getting around the plain reading of the Word.

(Not a Calvinist, btw)
 

Allan

Active Member
I agree with Kyredneck. (how about that??)

The vine represents the Body of Christ. No getting around the plain reading of the Word.

(Not a Calvinist, btw)

I agree that you can't get around the plain reading of the text, and thus context rules here. A 'tree' is not the same thing as a 'Vine' and any attempt to try to make them the same is futile at best, not only in the plain reading of the text but in the very context in which their meanings are established.While the Vine is without question Christ, the olive tree is not nor is it regarding 'the saved', lest we think God will take our salvation away from us (being removed).It is about two nations in God's plan - Israel and the Gentiles.

Here is a portion from Weirsby's commentary:
III. The Dispensational Proof (11:11-24)

Paul in these verses is discussing Jews and Gentiles, not individual sinners or saints. In this section he proves that God has a dispensational purpose behind the fall of Israel; namely, the salvation of the Gentiles. Through Israel’s fall, God was able to commit all people to disobedience and thus have mercy upon all! Gentiles do not have to become Jews before they can become Christians.

Paul argues that if the fall of the Jews has brought such blessing to the world, then how much greater will the blessing be when Israel is again restored! The restoration of Israel will bring resurrection to the world (v. 15). In other words, Paul was certain that there was a future for Israel as a nation. The teaching that the church today is God’s Israel, and that the OT kingdom promises are now fulfilled in the church in a “spiritual way” is not scriptural. Paul looked forward to the day when Israel would be received into fullness of blessing as a nation.

The parable of the olive tree must be examined carefully. Paul is not talking about salvation of individual Christians, but the position of Jews and Gentiles as peoples in the program of God. Israel is the olive tree that failed to bear fruit for God. God then broke off some of the branches and grafted into the tree the Gentiles, “a wild olive tree.” This was done “contrary to nature” (v. 24), for it is the practice to graft the good branch into the poorer stock; but God grafted the weak Gentiles into the good stock of Israel’s religious privileges! This act shows the goodness and the severity of God: His goodness in saving the Gentiles, His severity in cutting off rebellious Israel. But the Gentiles dare not boast because they now have Israel’s place of spiritual privilege, for God can cut them off too! And He will do just that at the end of this age, when the Gentile nations join together in a world coalition that refuses the Word of God and the Son of God. Then He will call out the true church, judge the Gentile nations, purge Israel, and set up His promised kingdom for Israel.

Again, remember that the theme of chapter 11 is national and not personal. God will never “break off” true believers from their salvation, for there is no separation between Christ and His people (Rom. 8:35-39). The church today is primarily made up of Gentiles, and we Gentiles benefit from the spiritual heritage of Israel (the rich sap of the olive tree). In a spiritual sense, we are children of Abraham, who is the “father” of all who believe (Gal. 3:26-29).
John MacArthur states the same thing:
Even John Murray, a leading amillennialist (one who does not believe in a literal, 1,000-year earthly kingdom promised to the Jews and ruled by Christ on the throne of David in Jerusalem, but who generally believes that God’s dealing with the nation of Israel ended with their rejection of Jesus Christ), cannot resist the power of the marvelous truth that Paul stresses here. In his commentary on Romans, Murray amazingly observes that “there cannot be irremediable rejection of Israel. The holiness of the theocratic consecration is not abolished and will one day be vindicated in Israel’s fulness and restoration” (The Epistle to the Romans [Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1965], p. 85).

In order to be faithful to His own Word, the Lord must provide a future salvation for Israel. Israel has not yet completely fulfilled God’s covenant promise to Abraham or His countless reiterations of that promise to redeem and restore Abraham’s descendants. If the root, Abraham and the other patriarchs, is holy, then the branches, their descendants, are holy too. They were divinely called and set apart before the foundation of the world and God’s work with those branches will not be complete until they bear the spiritual fruit He intends to produce in and through them, until the end of the age when they actually become the holy people they were destined to be.

“Listen to me, you who pursue righteousness,” God said to Israel through Isaiah, “who seek the Lord: Look to the rock from which you were hewn, and to the quarry from which you were dug. Look to Abraham your father, and to Sarah who gave birth to you in pain; when he was one I called him, then I blessed him and multiplied him” (Isa. 51:1-2). God established His permanent relationship with Israel through His covenant with their forefather, Abraham. They were consecrated as a people in the consecration of Abraham.

Paul continues with the figure of a tree: But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree.

Here the apostle makes his point by referring to the familiar practice of grafting. Olive trees were an agricultural and commercial mainstay in ancient Palestine and much of the Near East and Mediterranean areas, and still support a valuable industry in most of those regions today. Olive trees can live for hundreds of years, but as they age, they become less and less productive, and in order to restore productivity, branches from younger trees are grafted to old ones. When a branch ceased to produce olives, a younger one was grafted in its place.

That is the figure Paul uses here. The old, unproductive branches of Israel were broken off. Centuries earlier God had warned His people of what their continued unbelief and idolatry would bring. “The Lord called your name, ‘A green olive tree, beautiful in fruit and form’; with the noise of a great tumult He has kindled fire on it, and its branches are worthless. And the Lord of hosts, who planted you, has pronounced evil against you because of the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done to provoke Me by offering up sacrifices to Baal” (Jer. 11:16-17). Jesus Himself warned His own people Israel, “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation [better, “a people” niv] producing the fruit of it” (Matt. 21:43).

In place of the unfaithful, unproductive branches of Israel, those of a wild olive, the believing Gentiles, were grafted in among them. Those Gentile branches, people from all nations who believe in the Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ, then became partaker with them, the believing descendants of Abraham, in the rich root of the olive tree, the root of divine blessing and of eternal relationship to God through salvation.

At the beginning of that verse, Paul makes clear that some, but not all, of the branches were broken off. That is also indicated by the phrase among them. There always had been a believing remnant in Israel, and many Jews believed in Christ during His earthly ministry and in the time of the early church. Probably until the end of the first century, most Christians, including all the apostles, were Jews. Those original Jewish branches remained attached to the rich root of God’s olive tree, as have Jewish branches from then until now. Gentile believers are joint heirs with them and of Abraham, “the father of all who believe without being circumcised [without being or becoming Jews], that righteousness might be reckoned to them” (Rom. 4:11).

Now comes a command to the Gentiles based on that truth: Do not be arrogant toward the branches, that is, the unbelieving Jews who were cut off; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root (the promise to Abraham that “in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed,” Gen. 12:3), but the root supports you. The Gentiles themselves were not the source of blessing any more than believing Jews had been. Believing Gentiles are blessed by God because they are spiritual descendants of faithful Abraham. We are blessed because we have been grafted into the covenant of salvation that God made with Abraham and now graciously offers to all who believe in Abraham’s God. As Paul had explained to the churches in Galatia a few years earlier,

Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations shall be blessed in you.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. (Gal. 3:6-9)

...

It is tragic and lamentable that, throughout much of church history, Jewish converts to Christ have often been subjected to attitudes of Gentile superiority and been shunned or reluctantly accepted into Christian fellowship.

Paul anticipated that, in spite of this clear truth, some of his Gentile readers would continue to argue against him. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”...
 
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Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
Paul starts Romans 11 by asking if God has rejected His people. Paul says no, not fully, because there is a believing remnant..AS THERE ALWAYS HAS BEEN. And throughout time...by GRACE the elect obtained salvation...and throughout the rest were hardened

Who is the vine?

It depends who you ask, and the way they have come through Romans.

So, again depending on who you ask, it could be that the vine is:
1)Israel, as in the nation,
2)the elect/people of God as a whole(two groups ..wild and natural),
3)or the church(one group..believers).

2 is not the same view as 3. If you need help with that let me know.

Some hold that the vine means
1)salvation/part of Christ/the new birth.....

Others say it means the ....
2) the covenant promise but not salvation

There is also a New Perspective view

What is your view?
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
Allan,

Thanks for these commentaries. I agree, that the tree cannot mean Salvation because then you would have people within the nations being represented in those branches as being "cut off" and thus losing their salvation. How can God cut off a nation made up of individuals from salvation and possibly graft them back into salvation? That would entail that individuals within that nation were saved then lost and then saved again. How can that be?

So, if we understand that the tree represents the MEANS by which one can be saved, then we don't have this issue. God's special revelation by which he invites people to covenant with him has always been the means by which people are saved. The new covenant is through the means of faith brought by the appeal of the gospel message of reconciliation.

The nation of Israel (with the exception of the Remnant) have been blinded from the gospel which is equal to being "cut off" from the tree. The Gentiles are being sent the message of reconciliation, which is equal to being grafted in to the tree.

Agree or disagree and why?
 

menageriekeeper

Active Member
Allan said:
I agree that you can't get around the plain reading of the text, and thus context rules here. A 'tree' is not the same thing as a 'Vine' and any attempt to try to make them the same is futile at best, not only in the plain reading of the text but in the very context in which their meanings are established.While the Vine is without question Christ, the olive tree is not nor is it regarding 'the saved', lest we think God will take our salvation away from us (being removed).It is about two nations in God's plan - Israel and the Gentiles.

I see your point. Thank you for pointing it out to me. I'll have to do a little more study, though at first glance it seems we are snipping at hairs. Like most scriptures that deal with "potentials" this passage seems to have influence on more than one event.

So while I don't disagree with what you posted above, I also can see how this passage influences the individual. Just as God didn't want a bunch of Jews running around worshipping other Gods, He certainly doesn't want us Gentiles doing the same thing.
 

menageriekeeper

Active Member
Skandelon said:
Thanks for these commentaries. I agree, that the tree cannot mean Salvation because then you would have people within the nations being represented in those branches as being "cut off" and thus losing their salvation.

I don't believe they were saved in the first place. I believe that most Jews thought of themselves as "saved" because they were decended from Abraham. Much like many of our church goers today that believe they are "saved" because their mama or daddy was or because folks in their family have "always gone to church".
 

Winman

Active Member
I don't believe they were saved in the first place. I believe that most Jews thought of themselves as "saved" because they were decended from Abraham. Much like many of our church goers today that believe they are "saved" because their mama or daddy was or because folks in their family have "always gone to church".

Actually, the Jews believed themselves the "elect" of God. John the Baptist preached to the Pharisees and Sadducees that they must repent or turn from believing they were saved simply because they were descended from Abraham.

Matt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.


Simply believing you are the elect of God does not make it so.
 
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menageriekeeper

Active Member
Actually, the Jews believed themselves the "elect" of God.

Exactly. And what were they "elected" too? Certainly not an eternity of hell. AND they thought their election entitled them to God's continous approval, even though He warned them of the consequences of their disobedience.

There were certainly among them, though, individuals that held to the faith. Hence verses 1- 5.

Yes, I agree, what they thought, did not make it true.
 

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I agree that you can't get around the plain reading of the text, and thus context rules here. A 'tree' is not the same thing as a 'Vine' and any attempt to try to make them the same is futile at best, not only in the plain reading of the text but in the very context in which their meanings are established.While the Vine is without question Christ, the olive tree is not nor is it regarding 'the saved', lest we think God will take our salvation away from us (being removed).It is about two nations in God's plan - Israel and the Gentiles.....

Hello Allan,

I cannot disagree with the two commentators you've quoted concerning Israel and the Gentiles and the olive tree. In fact, I don't disagree with you on this in a huge way. Let me toss a couple things out there for you to chew on and consider and provide comment:

Compare this:

Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away..........If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch

With this:

......if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off

Take note that the branches in Jn 15 were 'in me' [Christ; the vine], and they are taken away, cast forth, and are burned. The branches in Ro 11 are also part of the tree, but, if they continue not, they also will be taken away or cut off. I do not believe either passage is referring to losing one's eternal standing with God.

Would you care to share your thoughts on the similarities of these two passages?
 

Jerome

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
"I thank God we do not believe in the measuring line of any form of bigotry. I remember meeting with one who knew, yes, he knew how many children of God there were in the parish where he lived—there were exactly five. I was curious to know their names, and much to my amusement he began by saying, “There is myself.” I stopped him at this point, with the query whether he was quite sure about the first one." —Charles Spurgeon, The Man With the Measuring Line
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
I do not believe either passage is referring to losing one's eternal standing with God.

So, what do you believe the author means specifically with regard to being "cut off" and "grafted back in" if not referring to losing one's salvation? Do you believe he is speaking "theoretically" but in actuality no one who has been "in the vine/tree" can actually be cut off or grafted BACK in? Please clarify. Thanks
 

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
So, what do you believe the author means specifically with regard to being "cut off" and "grafted back in" if not referring to losing one's salvation? Do you believe he is speaking "theoretically" but in actuality no one who has been "in the vine/tree" can actually be cut off or grafted BACK in? Please clarify. Thanks

Allan said (emphasis mine):

.....While the Vine is without question Christ, the olive tree is not nor is it regarding 'the saved', lest we think God will take our salvation away from us (being removed)......

I said:

...I do not believe either passage is referring to losing one's eternal standing with God......

....in agreement with Allan (I believe I'm correct that he means salvation in the eternal sense, which I do too).

You go first Skan. What's the correlation between these two 'cutting off' passages in Jn 15 and Ro 11? Are you saying one can lose their eternal salvation?
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
kyredneck,

I know you were agreeing with Allan in that those being cut off are not losing their salvation ( I agree). I was asking you what you do believe it means?

I did go first already...in the post on the last page. Do you agree or disagree with what I wrote and why?
 

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
Canadyjd,

Thanks for your response. Before we go on I want to find out what you think the "vine" represents that the "branches" are being cut off and grafted into? Thanks
After studying the context a little closer, I don't see any mention of a "vine". If you see the word "vine" somewhere in your translation, please point it out to me.

I see a the words "root", "branches", a "wild olive" tree, and a cultivated "olive tree".

The "root" is directly connected to the "dough" in v.16. The "first piece" of dough (identified as the "root" of the cultivated olive tree) must be the Jewish patriarchs Abraham and Issac and Jacob (chp. 9. v.7-13) They were "holy" (set apart according to the promises of God) and recieved the promises of God by faith.

The cultivated olive tree represents the whole of the promises of God concerning salvation. These promises sprang forth from the root of the patriachs and center on/and are fulfilled in and by the person of Jesus Christ.

The branches represent those who accept or reject the promises. Those Jews who accept the promises are natural branches. They are the remnant of the Jews, the elect of God. They have recieved the promises by faith.

Those Jews who do not receive the promises by faith are cut off from the cultivated olive tree for unbelief. They are (in part or in whole) hardened by God against the truth of the promises found in Jesus Christ.

The wild olive tree represents the whole of the Gentiles. Those branches that are grafted into the cultivated olive tree are those who have proclaimed to have accepted the promises of God by faith in Jesus Christ. Just as with the natural branches, the wild branches can be cut off for unbelief.

I disagree with Allen (or at least with the commentaries he quoted) on the point of the restoration of National Israel. The point of these passages is not that National Israel will be restored separately from the Gentiles. It is speaking of a spiritual restoration.

There is only one cultivated olive tree. When the "hardening" is lifted from the Jews, both Jews and Gentiles are grafted into the one tree. This tree (or the branches) represents the whole of the people of God that have salvation by faith. They clearly include both Jew and Gentile.

I look forward to your response.

peace to you:praying:
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
After studying the context a little closer, I don't see any mention of a "vine". If you see the word "vine" somewhere in your translation, please point it out to me.

I see a the words "root", "branches", a "wild olive" tree, and a cultivated "olive tree".

The "root" is directly connected to the "dough" in v.16. The "first piece" of dough (identified as the "root" of the cultivated olive tree) must be the Jewish patriarchs Abraham and Issac and Jacob (chp. 9. v.7-13) They were "holy" (set apart according to the promises of God) and recieved the promises of God by faith.

The cultivated olive tree represents the whole of the promises of God concerning salvation. These promises sprang forth from the root of the patriachs and center on/and are fulfilled in and by the person of Jesus Christ.
Yes, I was referring to the tree. So you believe the tree represents the "promises of God concerning salvation." So, you believe, if someone is grafted into the tree they are saved and if they are cut off from the tree they are unsaved? Is that correct?

The branches represent those who accept or reject the promises. Those Jews who accept the promises are natural branches. They are the remnant of the Jews, the elect of God. They have recieved the promises by faith.
So, when Paul speaks of those who currently grafted into the tree possibly being cut off, or those who have been cut off being grafted back into the tree, do you believe that they are losing their salvation and getting it back? How do you explain these texts?

Those Jews who do not receive the promises by faith are cut off from the cultivated olive tree for unbelief. They are (in part or in whole) hardened by God against the truth of the promises found in Jesus Christ.
So do you equate being "cut off" with being "hardened?" Do you believe that if someone is cut off they can be grafted back in? Or, in other words, do you believe that once one is hardened they can be saved at a later time?

Sorry for all the questions, I'm just attempting to fully understand your view before responding further. I think we both agree that nations or groups are made up of individuals and thus when Paul speaks of a nation or a group being grafted in or cut off that their must be individuals within those groups who are being grafted in or cut off and I'm attempting to understand how you reconcile that with Paul's explanations.
 

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
Yes, I was referring to the tree. So you believe the tree represents the "promises of God concerning salvation." So, you believe, if someone is grafted into the tree they are saved and if they are cut off from the tree they are unsaved? Is that correct?.......
I don't believe the purpose of Paul in this text is to teach something about perseverence. It is better to focus on the purpose of the text in context.

Paul is using the analogy of the branches being "grafted" into the tree or broken off from the tree to represent Jews and Gentiles generally, not specifically. The Jews sprang from the "root" of the patriarchs, which recieved the promises of God by faith. Those branches that didn't recieve the promises by faith (i.e. they weren't one of the elect remnant spoken of earlier) were broken off and are hardened.

This general (not absolute) hardening of the Jews resulted in the gospel going to the Gentiles. The Gentiles, in general, are grafted onto the tree. This simply demonstrates that the promises of God, along with the salvation that comes with it, goes out to the Gentiles.

So, in general, those who remain part of the tree are saved. They are, IMHO, revealed to be the elect of God spoken of in earlier chapters, made up of Jews and Gentiles.

Being grafted into or broken off, therefore, isn't speaking of specific individuals gaining or loosing salvation. If that were true, the natural branches would have been born saved (they were Jews/branches), and could only loose salvation by being broken off.

Being grafted into or broken off is speaking, generally, of God's method in bringing about His purpose of redeeming the elect from both Jews and Gentiles.
So do you equate being "cut off" with being "hardened?" Do you believe that if someone is cut off they can be grafted back in? Or, in other words, do you believe that once one is hardened they can be saved at a later time?
Being "cutoff" for unbelief and "hardened" is referring to the Jews, generally, not individuals, which is clear from the context.

At some time in the future, the general hardening of the Jews will be lifted and many of those alive at that time will accept Jesus as Messiah (perhaps every single Jew). This is represented as the grafting in of those who were once cut off. It is referring to Jews generally, not specifically.

peace to you:praying:
 

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Kyredneck, did you agree or disagree? Why?

I stand by this statement:

The olive tree of Ro 11 is synonymous with the vine of Jn 15.....

Now if the first handful of dough offered as the firstfruits [Abraham and the patriarchs] is consecrated (holy), so is the whole mass [the nation of Israel]; and if the root [Abraham] is consecrated (holy), so are the branches. Ro 11:16 AMP

And if ye are Christ`s, then are ye Abraham`s seed, heirs according to promise. Gal 3:29

I am the true vine.... Jn 15:1

You said:

....the tree represents the MEANS by which one can be saved.....[/B]

....and I don't agree with that. I agree with canadyjd (emphasis mine):

...The cultivated olive tree represents the whole of the promises of God concerning salvation. These promises sprang forth from the root of the patriachs and center on/and are fulfilled in and by the person of Jesus Christ....

The Jews on the whole have been cut off from the promises and the benefits of salvation, i.e., the favor of God:

7 What then [shall we conclude]? Israel failed to obtain what it sought [God's favor by obedience to the Law]. Only the elect (those chosen few) obtained it, while the rest of them became callously indifferent (blinded, hardened, and made insensible to it).
15 For if their rejection and exclusion from the benefits of salvation were [overruled] for the reconciliation of a world to God, what will their acceptance and admission mean? [It will be nothing short of] life from the dead! AMP
 

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
The Jews on the whole have been cut off from the promises and the benefits of salvation, i.e., the favor of God:
I don't believe that. I have a woman in my church that is Jewish (by birth) and a Christian (by grace).

peace to you:praying:
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
I don't believe the purpose of Paul in this text is to teach something about perseverence. It is better to focus on the purpose of the text in context.

Paul is using the analogy of the branches being "grafted" into the tree or broken off from the tree to represent Jews and Gentiles generally, not specifically.

Can you explain to me how God can cut off the Jewish nation "generally" while no individual Jews are being cut off specifically? As Calvinists alway argue when talking about Romans 9, what is true of the group must be true of the individuals that make up that group, right?
Being grafted into or broken off, therefore, isn't speaking of specific individuals gaining or loosing salvation. If that were true, the natural branches would have been born saved (they were Jews/branches), and could only loose salvation by being broken off.
But it doesn't just speak of the natural branches being cut off, it also speaks of those being cut off being grafted back in and it speaks of those who have been grafted in as being cut off.

I'm wanting to know how a group of people, generally speaking, who has been grafted in can be cut off without any individual actually being grafted in and cut off?

Being grafted into or broken off is speaking, generally, of God's method in bringing about His purpose of redeeming the elect from both Jews and Gentiles. Being "cutoff" for unbelief and "hardened" is referring to the Jews, generally, not individuals, which is clear from the context.

Again, some question as above. How can a group be cut off and hardened with out individuals within that group being cut off and hardened and then provoked to envy and saved?
 
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